[quote]KSman wrote:
InTheZone wrote:
Great post as usual. I’d like to see you explain your position,(which I agree with), on running adex throughout the cycle and right from the start as opposed to “waiting” till needed. A huge majority of guys with experience here always tell us to “wait and see” before using adex or other AI’s, and some even go to the extent of saying this is due to a “negative” effect on the cycle gains if adex is used etc.
Also, many of us just don’t have the doctor available that is willing to ok blood tests, and/or prescribe or even advise on the use and doseage tweakage of adex on cycle.
Is there some rough or general guideline you could suggest when using it to control existing or preventing gyno or e related issues, such as physical symptoms which might tell one that he is at the “right” level of control?
I know you’re not a doctor but you have a wealth of experience and knowledge that few others have regarding this.
Sorry for the hijack Aragorn, but I think you and everyone will benefit from this.
respectfully,
ToneBone
I don’t think that readers here are worried about scripts. You can order blood work on your own from LEF.org and other places. LEF has blood work on sale, April through June 2nd. But to get the good prices, one has to be a member.
With no adex on a cycle of aromatizing gear, E2 will climb. Masteron or proviron would counter act some of that. Guys in TRT can feel great, but after one month, they start to go down hill, less libido and sense of well-being. The E2 comes up quite fast when starting TRT or gear. It takes some time for the E to alter brain function and other tissues. When does this in TRT, adding adex 1mg/wk can restore libido in 10-14 days. Libido is a fast acting indicator of E2 status. After starting adex, other E created problems such mood, depression, apathy, passivism, energy will normalize mostly over 2 months and there will not be any changes after 3 months. So that is the time scale of things. One can have high T levels and elevated E2 and have all of the symptoms of hypogonadsim. So E can wipe out most of the benefits of T. TRT without adex can be almost like no TRT at all. With TRT, one can see and understand the processes and consequences that may not be so obvious in the duration of a cycle.
E2 normal statistical lab range is [0-53pg/ml]. An elevated E2 in the upper 30’s can create all of the problems noted above. Men who were part of the same group that created numbers in the 50-'s would be experiencing a terrible quality of life [QOL]. Unfortunately, most docs would see that and say that they were normal as in a normal state of health… totally wrong!
There are some, a few but not rare, who are adex over-responders. They start on the otherwise excellent starting dose of 1mg/wk. The goal for E2 is the lower 20s but they go single digits. On the way down they have a fleeting feeling of improvement and libido, but that is lost as they fall “through the sweet spot”. They will typically do well on 1/4 or 1/8ht of a mg/wk.
If you lower E2 too much, you can feel a mental change that is not good, mood changes, loss of libido, perhaps a loss of sexual sensitivity [numb dick]. So that is your feedback sign. Not very precise. If your are on a cycle where you are changing the mix over time, then you have a changing need for adex that might be hard to manage with or without blood work. So it will be obvious when things are too low. Another sign is joint aches or pain.
Adex is competitive with T levels. When you have more T, you need more adex. For a strong cycle, normal responders could try .5mg EOD. But that may not be enough. Need also increases with body mass and %BF. Would hold this higher adex dose part way into taper, noting that T level drop is a time delay of the dosage drop. Note that a lean 160 pound TRT guy on 100mg/wk test ester will typically need 1mg/wk. Scale that by body mass. That can be used during PCT a while after one tapers of or tapers to 100mg/wk. Stay on that a while after PCT to protect the HPTA from estrogen rebound. Reduce to 1/2mg and stay with that for a few weeks then quit.
A doctor would typically have no idea about using adex during a cycle and PCT. You are substantially on your own. Any reduction of E2 that is above optimal [lower 20’s] will still be of great benefit. As an experiment, get 5-6 weeks into a cycle without adex, then introduce it and see what your mind and body has to say about that.
Guys who are adex over-responders who do labs find that the results are not of much use to adjust a dose and only indicates that they need to take less. But their minds and bodies were telling them this already. They need to bracket their dose until they feel that QOL is a lot better. Then they can do E2 blood work. If their E2 number is x% above or below 20, then they can make an x% change in the dose. The response is not completely linear, but is for all practical purposes it is linear as one approaches the E2 target level.
Estrogen rebound: Someone here that everyone knows, and will not be named, had a libido crash after a cycle and PCT. That was done with a SERM PCT and no adex at all. He had a terrible QOL and was quite upset about it. I explained that what he was reporting was consistent with an estrogen rebound shutting him down. I suggested adex use and duration, can’t recall the details. He PM’d back and found that the adex was like a switch and his life was back. As with TRT guys with estrogen poisoning, adex was an epiphany.
e·piph·a·ny (-pf-n)
n. pl. e·piph·a·nies
- Epiphany
a. A sudden manifestation of the essence or meaning of something.
b. A comprehension or perception of reality by means of a sudden intuitive realization: “I experienced an epiphany, a spiritual flash that would change the way I viewed myself” Frank Maier.[/quote]
Thanks KS,
You never fail to deliver the “goods”.
Great post.
On the topic of tests, there are unfortunately some of us who simply can’t afford the tests out there. I’m one of them. Really, really strapped while going to school and taking care of a young one, so, up a bit of a creek, and thus the request for more obvious physical “signs”.
You delivered a complete and sound answer and again, I thank you for everyones sake.
ToneBone
I don’t know if I’ll be able to run this now (money situation changed drastically a little bit ago. Unexpected expenses.) but I’m presenting it anyway for tweaks/thoughts. Sorry FG, I decided to give in to the Test/tren/mast bug.