160 Sets in 2 Days: Gironda 8x8

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
41

For 8x8 with 30 seconds rest, I finished with the quite-light:

Smith CGBP: 125 lb, or 41% 1RM (of 305)

ATG Squat: 115 lb, which is only 31% (of 370) if figuring only the barbell, but if figuring the legs are also lifting say 100 lb of bodyweight for a total of 215 “really” being lifted, then this would be 46% 1RM where the 1RM also has that 100 lb added in. Not that I am sure that that method is exactly valid.

DL: 165 lb. Relative to my 1RM some months back, this would be 35% (of 475.) However I had been unable to train DL or Romanian DL at all for months, so I am guessing the most I could lift now, if not for the rotator cuff problem making it foolish to try, might be 400 lb. If figuring from that estimate for doable-but-for-being-foolish current best-guess max, then that is 41%.

I do think I look fuller in the mirror, but there are no tape measure changes. However the part that looks most improved – upper chest – wouldn’t show up on the tape anyway.

I did however now hit a surprise 14RM today (190) in the Smith CGBP, using a weight I’d expected to get only 2 sets of 10 with (instead got the planned 10 and then the 14.)

It probably wouldn’t have happened without the 8x8 program.

Huh! (Hadn’t measured this till you asked about changes.) Calves are now the WORST, on the tape measure, that they’ve been in who knows how long. Oh well, maybe this still primes for later growth.

On doing 8x8 DL’s at 50% 1RM: I dunno. On the one hand I believe some could. Some just don’t seem to have to breathe that hard regardless of the vast amount of work they are doing. I don’t know how that is, but for example in the video of Tom Platz squatting 30-something reps deep with over 500 on the bar, he doesn’t seem to be breathing very hard either during or afterwards. I can’t conceive of how.

Doing 64 total reps in 7 minutes 30 seconds (approximately) at 50% 1RM is just as much work done in that length of time as doing say 40 reps at 80% 1RM in that time frame. Or say 8 sets of 5 with something like 45 seconds rest inbetween. Fierce. Who can crank out multiple sets of 5 at 80% 1RM with that little rest?

Yet there was a fellow here who posted a video of himself doing 40 reps with 405 taking only a matter of several seconds rest between reps, with the entire thing I think taking less than 8 minutes. And he didn’t seem to be breathing up a storm. I don’t know how.

It seems to me that 50% would be quite ambitious with only the 30 seconds rest.

42

Thanks very much for the updates. Very informative. Lots of useful stuff to take away from this thread.

43

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
For 8x8 with 30 seconds rest, I finished with the quite-light:

Smith CGBP: 125 lb, or 41% 1RM (of 305)

ATG Squat: 115 lb, which is only 31% (of 370) if figuring only the barbell, but if figuring the legs are also lifting say 100 lb of bodyweight for a total of 215 “really” being lifted, then this would be 46% 1RM where the 1RM also has that 100 lb added in. Not that I am sure that that method is exactly valid.

DL: 165 lb. Relative to my 1RM some months back, this would be 35% (of 475.) However I had been unable to train DL or Romanian DL at all for months, so I am guessing the most I could lift now, if not for the rotator cuff problem making it foolish to try, might be 400 lb. If figuring from that estimate for doable-but-for-being-foolish current best-guess max, then that is 41%.

I do think I look fuller in the mirror, but there are no tape measure changes. However the part that looks most improved – upper chest – wouldn’t show up on the tape anyway.

I did however now hit a surprise 14RM today (190) in the Smith CGBP, using a weight I’d expected to get only 2 sets of 10 with (instead got the planned 10 and then the 14.)

It probably wouldn’t have happened without the 8x8 program.

Huh! (Hadn’t measured this till you asked about changes.) Calves are now the WORST, on the tape measure, that they’ve been in who knows how long. Oh well, maybe this still primes for later growth.

On doing 8x8 DL’s at 50% 1RM: I dunno. On the one hand I believe some could. Some just don’t seem to have to breathe that hard regardless of the vast amount of work they are doing. I don’t know how that is, but for example in the video of Tom Platz squatting 30-something reps deep with over 500 on the bar, he doesn’t seem to be breathing very hard either during or afterwards. I can’t conceive of how.

Doing 64 total reps in 7 minutes 30 seconds (approximately) at 50% 1RM is just as much work done in that length of time as doing say 40 reps at 80% 1RM in that time frame. Or say 8 sets of 5 with something like 45 seconds rest inbetween. Fierce. Who can crank out multiple sets of 5 at 80% 1RM with that little rest?

Yet there was a fellow here who posted a video of himself doing 40 reps with 405 taking only a matter of several seconds rest between reps, with the entire thing I think taking less than 8 minutes. And he didn’t seem to be breathing up a storm. I don’t know how.

It seems to me that 50% would be quite ambitious with only the 30 seconds rest.[/quote]

Hm, I see how that would call for some serious weight reduction.On the program I’m at now, when I have say 60 second rest periods and 5 sets, I might start out with 90 kg and get 13 reps with that, then on the last set struggle to hit 10 with 60 kg.

The people who do those crazy feats are genetic or biologic freaks. Sa a program called ‘Fight Science’ on Discovery about various fighters, amongst them Randy Coutoure. They wanted to measure lactic acid buildup over more than a minute of contionuoussly holding a hard choke on an opponent and see how his muscles did as time went. Surprisingly, lactic acid peaked in the first half of the measuring, then dropped to almost nothing as the work got harder.

Now, while not completely applicable, i do believe that the less lactic acid buildup, the less heavy a person will be breathing after a crazy feat,like Platz.

A high o2-uptake coupled with the ability to rapidly remove or reduce lactic acid might be why they breathe less heavy, as the blood is less acidic and there’s less need to remover carbon dioxide to restore ph balance.

I guess.

44

Your guess sounds to me like the best one possible.

45

I just finished a 6 week training cycle and was looking for something new when I stumbled upon this post. In a few short hours I did a bunch of research on the Gironda 8x8 and I have decided to give it a go. I went out and bought a stopwatch. I am 3 days into it now, just did legs/abs today (deadlift, squat, extension, leg curl, machine crunch, leg raise) and it kicked my ass. I almost puked. 20 seconds FLYS by when you are doing squats or deads.

I am going to do my best to ride it out for 6 weeks (that is usually my window of focus…I get bored with ultra long training cycles). I will say that my biggest gains* ever were on that Huge in a Hurry GET LEAN program and that emphasized 30 or less between sets. So I am thinking this Gironda plan SHOULD work. So far I dig it.

*By gains I mean body transformation. I lost a bunch of fat, maintained my 1rep max on the big lifts and increased my multi-rep max on several lifts.

46

And yes the poundages used are very humbling. I just pulled 500x3 a few weeks ago but today only used 185 for 8x8. So that is less than 35% of my 1 RM. I squatted with 155 for 8x8 which is right at 35% of my 1 RM. I had lofty goals of using 225 on both of those movements…not gonna happen. All that being said, the workout was killer and I got a good swole on so I am going to ride it out for a while.

47

I hope it goes well!

I’m not an expert on Gironda’s teachings, but I had thought he preferred three weeks for this. I would also wonder about the muscles going an entire 6 weeks without ever having a normally-heavy load. Three weeks, no problem, but 6 weeks at least hypothetically might result in the nasty surprise of finding oneself markedly weaker with weights such as 75-80% 1RM.

Perhaps try, after 3 weeks of 8x8, keeping the brief rest if desired but moving up in weight each workout while dropping a rep?

I have been doing this on those exercises I have wanted to keep the weights light due to hoping to completely heal the soft-tissue problems. So for example in moving to 8x7, I increased the weight by about 5% 1RM or about 1/7th of what had been the weight for 8x8; in moving to 8x6 another increase of about 5% 1RM or 1/8th of what had been the weight for 8x7, etc.

So far so good.

48

Well 6 weeks is my goal…but it wouldnt surprise me if i peetered out after 4 weeks. Its human nature to train what you are strong at and avoid what you are weak at. Example: Guys who are good bench pressers tend to bench press A LOT. For me I have always liked training very heavy with very low reps (3-5). I hate going 8 or more cuz I am not a fan of lactic acid (call me a pussy). So I have decided to take on my demons head on…high volume, high reps, multiples sets.

49

4 weeks is I think a much better plan for this than six.

Why not plan on the 4 weeks, and then on accomplishing the 4 weeks you have succeeded in what you set out to do, rather than plan on 6 weeks, accomplish 4, and feel like you petered out? It can be a better strategy psychologically, anyway.

50

Interesting thread.

I just read through all of it.

I have had a persistent pain on my left rhomboid for 3 months now. No ROM issues. It only hurts when I breathe. It is a deep deep seated pain almost between the back of my heart and the back muscles.

Two days ago I felt a surge of strength and added 15.4 lbs to my bench press and on my last set I felt this electric pain rush through my left elbow - like you do when you bang the bone on a wall full force. I thought nothing of it and proceeded to do 2 more chest exercises, one heavy and one light weight.
I have since then had an intense burning pain deep inside my elbow. I have never had this kind of pain before ( Is this a joint issue that every one talks about? ) I have been drinking fish oil, though it may be too late for that.

With my hamstring injury 3 months ago I had to go really easy on the legs. For the past two weeks I have trained them by warming up with 4 x 20 lunges at body weight then proceed to do 8 x 10 squats ATG at 154.3 lbs ( my current weight ).
30 - 40s rest, maybe.
Under a minute for sure ( only because I want it over and out as I would rather do 4 x 6 heavy weight, so less weight doesn’t stimulate me enough ).

I am thinking perhaps I should do everything 8x8. I am getting really frustrated with the injury in, injury out succession.

I had the same problem with the nuts, though they do fill me up.
( I can have 300g in one sitting )
First I was gorging on peanuts. Then I switched to cashew thinking they were lower cabs. Having gained the 2% BF I lost I realize the cashews were also high in carbs ( I am trying to go AD full on ). So the cashews are out and I am restricted to pecans, hazelnuts and walnuts.

And I can’t even blame my birds since I am the only bird in the house.

:frowning:

51

I tried to seriously reduce my carb intake and lost quite a bit of body fat (prob around 10 lbs of fat) in about 4 months. Then I hit a wall and have not lost any since. I think one reason is because I have been eating a bunch of almond butter, peanut butter and raw nuts. Very very calorie dense and very easy to eat several handfuls. I am thinking it is best just to get rid of them and switch to beef jerkey.

1 Like
52

Same here. I think I mentioned in this thread already that nuts are a disaster for me as it’s extremely easy to eat 1000+ calories at a time, or in an evening, and it doesn’t result in eating less of other things.

There are people who go on about how nuts are great when dieting, but it sounds like your situation is the same as mine: they can readily be a massive source of calories that for some reason doesn’t result in reduced intake of other things.

53

[quote]Alpha F wrote:
Interesting thread.

I just read through all of it.

I have had a persistent pain on my left rhomboid for 3 months now. No ROM issues. It only hurts when I breathe. It is a deep deep seated pain almost between the back of my heart and the back muscles.

Two days ago I felt a surge of strength and added 15.4 lbs to my bench press and on my last set I felt this electric pain rush through my left elbow - like you do when you bang the bone on a wall full force. I thought nothing of it and proceeded to do 2 more chest exercises, one heavy and one light weight.
I have since then had an intense burning pain deep inside my elbow. I have never had this kind of pain before ( Is this a joint issue that every one talks about? ) I have been drinking fish oil, though it may be too late for that.

With my hamstring injury 3 months ago I had to go really easy on the legs. For the past two weeks I have trained them by warming up with 4 x 20 lunges at body weight then proceed to do 8 x 10 squats ATG at 154.3 lbs ( my current weight ).
30 - 40s rest, maybe.
Under a minute for sure ( only because I want it over and out as I would rather do 4 x 6 heavy weight, so less weight doesn’t stimulate me enough ).

I am thinking perhaps I should do everything 8x8. I am getting really frustrated with the injury in, injury out succession.
[/quote]

I’m thinking that one thing that may have done me with regard to the recurring problems is that for a very long time I had followed Scott Warman’s method of starting training cycles at 60% 1RM and going up 5% 1RM per week, and topping out the cycle at 90%. I never had these problems when doing this.

I wound up accelerating the pace of the increases to 5% 1RM each workout with the workouts being 5 days apart, and then getting more frequent than that, to twice per week.

So this resulted in a shorter time period spent at the light weights such as 60 and 65%.

And then I started not doing the 60 and 65% at all, but dropping only down to 70%.

So I am going to go back to the concept now, except even moreso than previously at least until completely healed, of having an actual number of weeks that are at light weight, and lighter weight than before.

Besides, MODOK and the BBB stuff has me thinking I ought to give more credit to sets of 13-15 than I have done in the past.

So my idea now for longer term is to spend a little time with the 8x8, then move up to those hateful high-rep sets at about 50% 1RM, then work my way up from 60%.

Having each cycle followed by say three weeks total at light weights (35-65% 1RM) may, I hope, prevent re-developing the problems.

54

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

I’m thinking that one thing that may have done me with regard to the recurring problems is that for a very long time I had followed Scott Warman’s method of starting training cycles at 60% 1RM and going up 5% 1RM per week, and topping out the cycle at 90%. I never had these problems when doing this.

I wound up accelerating the pace of the increases to 5% 1RM each workout with the workouts being 5 days apart, and then getting more frequent than that, to twice per week.

So this resulted in a shorter time period spent at the light weights such as 60 and 65%.

And then I started not doing the 60 and 65% at all, but dropping only down to 70%.

So I am going to go back to the concept now, except even moreso than previously at least until completely healed, of having an actual number of weeks that are at light weight, and lighter weight than before.

Besides, MODOK and the BBB stuff has me thinking I ought to give more credit to sets of 13-15 than I have done in the past.

So my idea now for longer term is to spend a little time with the 8x8, then move up to those hateful high-rep sets at about 50% 1RM, then work my way up from 60%.

Having each cycle followed by say three weeks total at light weights (35-65% 1RM) may, I hope, prevent re-developing the problems.
[/quote]

When I read about your shoulder ROM problem I immediately thought: I wonder if you went swimming ( with pro paddles to add resistance and make it more “weight” worthy ) how it would help because, my masseuse told me ( he is a cage fighter ) he does a lot of mobility exercises to prevent injuries.

What has done me in and it is my flaw in this is that I have only tensed and never took care to stretch or do mobility in 5 years. I am to remember I am not 25 any more and cannot get away with recovery by sleep ( I used to overcome everything with a high dose of somnolence ), so being full off compensated for being full on.

It is in my nature to be an all or nothing and my training reflects this. I have been instinctively moving towards the, and yes I wholeheartedly agree, hated/boring high reps of 15 ( I am doing stiff legged DL 10 x 15 at 165.3 on account of the hamstring injury and I am eagerly anticipating the time I can dead lift proper again ).

I love volume so I will probably keep that high with low density, hopefully this will make it more challenging as the shorter rest periods may replace some of the intensity I would have gotten from the heavy load.

About the nuts:
Though I have gorged on them ( I also noticed I did NO cardio over the past 5 weeks so maybe I should have upped the cardio, not cut it off and the BF would have at least stayed the same ), they have been invaluable in my transition into an anabolic diet which to my surprise I love - I feel much better on it ( though I may be overloading on salt as well ). I have almost completely lost my sweet tooth and all I crave in the form of high sugars is fresh grapefruit juice upon waking.

55

On the swimming, I have thought before, and my then-massage-therapist also thought so, that swimming might well help me, as you suggest. Even though as mentioned before, I am not a good swimmer.

But my gym doesn’t have a pool, and the house that I had that did have a pool was seized by eminent domain for a road-building project and the current house has no pool, so I’ve never done anything with that.

Looking back, I do wonder if I had kept pullovers in my routine throughout, or with only modest periods of time without them, I might not be far better off. If I had, then my elbows might well still be able to go back a reasonable distance.

56

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On the swimming, I have thought before, and my then-massage-therapist also thought so, that swimming might well help me, as you suggest. Even though as mentioned before, I am not a good swimmer.[/quote]

Bill, I hear you and I know you are very prolific and good at many things. However, it is not about being a good swimmer. Having done both and being equally passionate about swimming as I am about lifting ( which is somewhat unusual ) I can confidently say they are completely different elements yet a certain kind of chirality occurs when we are submersed either in iron or water. In the iron game the element is pure solidity. I often find that when I achieve that moment of brilliance in lifting a heavy solid mass I become fluid.
In the water the element is fluidity and I likewise find myself becoming solid in order to perform the butterfly with power and grace, for instance.

The water is a very supportive element.
In a way, it is as almost when I try to compensate fluid for solid and push the weight with iron for iron that is when I get injured. I can tell the difference when my output of power is effortless ( power flowing effortlessly ) and when I am merely forcing my power ( making a solid effort ). By going swimming and surrendering yourself to that supportive fluidity you are exposing yourself to your own solidity. You are no longer supporting the weight ( as with lifting ) but the weight is now supporting you ( as with swimming ). [quote]

But my gym doesn’t have a pool, and the house that I had that did have a pool was seized by eminent domain for a road-building project and the current house has no pool, so I’ve never done anything with that.
[/quote]

I hear you.

Get a big kick board and put that between your legs so it helps you maintain buoyancy.

Then just move your arms - like that heavy Oly bar that just floats from the ground above your head, when you, in your fluid power, performs an Olympic lift.

Think of the pool as a liquefied barbell.

57

Oh, I’m not that terrible a swimmer: just slow compared to you or a good swimmer. But I can swim reasonable distances out into the ocean or across lakes or that sort of thing. Just not fast.

The real barrier to the swimming is having no place to do it.

Where I used to live in North Florida, there were springs within easy driving distance. Or more importantly, springs that people are allowed to swim in. Where I am now, there’s a really outstanding set (?) of springs very closeby, actually – Silver Springs – but it is privately owned and the public cannot swim there. And it’s an hour’s drive to the ocean.

Too bad: springs are very nice to swim in. Perfectly clean water.

58

Interesting thread for sure! Thanks for posting your results Bill. I have a question for you guys after reading about the soft tissue problems. Do you have any advice for a younger lifter (age 25) as far as maybe what not to do, or what has led to the problems you are now facing?

I’ve battled quite a few injuries, most likely soft tissue related (shoudlers, forearms, knees, etc), and just now am getting them to something I can tolerate. Is this just part of lifting? I mean, have you had to deal with these problems all of your lifting career, or does it just come and go?

Just like you guys, I really enjoy lifting the heavy weights and very rarely go above 8 reps on the basic lifts. Actually have been following CTs advice and doing 8x3 and then 5x5. Do you think it is wise to switch to something > 10 reps for a while?

Thanks for any advice!

59

I really didn’t have problems till well past age 40.

However, I think that the things that protected me before were cycling through the weight range as described – which meant that in each 7 week cycle there were 3 weeks at light weights (60, 65, or 70% 1RM) or otherwise, prior to that, I still had weeks at high-rep weights for other reasons – and I had exercises such as pullovers which helped maintain reasonable ROM.

I dropped the pullovers just out of not thinking them that important and not a “money exercise,” and then when after a long while I tried putting them back in, I hurt myself a bit and some tries after that just seemed to aggravate things.

Presently, I just do a stretch with empty hands in a DB-pullover type position to try to help with the ROM, and do bent-over straight arm pullovers which – though it wouldn’t look to the eye as if they ought to be creating a stretch – in fact for me provide a safe slight stretch at the top.

I do think it can be a preventative measure to have some weeks at modest weight from time to time. Many do get away without it though. But maybe not forever.

Additionally, aside from finding powerlifters cycling weights like that, and of course many bodybuilders often having high rep workouts (though personally I hate high-rep work), you’ll see quite modest percent 1RM often being used by powerlifters even outside of training-cycle reasons.

60

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

Bill, I hear you and I know you are very prolific and good at many things. However, it is not about being a good swimmer. Having done both and being equally passionate about swimming as I am about lifting ( which is somewhat unusual ) I can confidently say they are completely different elements yet a certain kind of chirality occurs when we are submersed either in iron or water. In the iron game the element is pure solidity. I often find that when I achieve that moment of brilliance in lifting a heavy solid mass I become fluid.
In the water the element is fluidity and I likewise find myself becoming solid in order to perform the butterfly with power and grace, for instance.

The water is a very supportive element.
In a way, it is as almost when I try to compensate fluid for solid and push the weight with iron for iron that is when I get injured. I can tell the difference when my output of power is effortless ( power flowing effortlessly ) and when I am merely forcing my power ( making a solid effort ). By going swimming and surrendering yourself to that supportive fluidity you are exposing yourself to your own solidity. You are no longer supporting the weight ( as with lifting ) but the weight is now supporting you ( as with swimming ).

Think of the pool as a liquefied barbell.

[/quote]

You sir, are good with words.