Correct. That’s what we have been seeing as what the norm wind up in when they confirm being symptom free.
So when I get feedback based on tens of thousands of patients, and then see the same occur with the guys I work with, with even docs in this very forum confirming the exact same thing, only to be told its my “opinion” is so unbelievably nuts I couldn’t even put it into words.
Why don’t you put all the points you find yourself repeating over and over into a thread that you can just link to when need be.
That would accomplish your goal of not letting misinformation spread without wasting your time. It would also add the value of having all your fundamental beliefs in a single place for people to be able to read through if they just come across one of your posts in a random thread.
For what it’s worth I agree with your approach to TRT, but seeing you get into the same arguments over and over kills me from the lack of efficiency
Completely agree. I try to send people links to my videos so I don’t have to repeat myself, but they don’t watch them and then make more claims with no basis in reality.
@trtwuzup if I gave you the contact info of roughly 50 physicians, and asked each of them to tell you how many patients they had, with each of them confirming precisely what I’m telling you, would you actually have the audicity to tell every one of them that it is their ‘opinion’? All of them? You believe you would have an ounce of credibility here?
Hey, thanks for asking me to take a look. You come across very thoughtful and reasonable as putting this information into a video requires one to think about a number of factors when giving out such advice. That’s also why I am sort of a fool for trying to debate matters of science on a forum like this where it’s easy to type without thinking.
Some thoughts:
Your suggestion on keeping a log and the discipline required to detail how one feels as they change their protocol is great.
Agree with the no AI advice for majority (especially in the context of TRT and using minimum effective dose.
I appreciate you sharing your experience that a lot of men do well at 25-30 ng/dL free T (as indexed on an accurate equilibrium dialysis range). I am assuming you are referring to trough here on a 2x weekly dosing frequency. Here you could have mentioned not all free T is created equal and the differences between direct RIA free T vs equilibrium dialysis free T vs calculated free T. That’s why I didn’t appreciate your blanket statement on my other thread that none of these details matter. What do you tell a guy who has direct free T results that are a factor of 7 difference on the direct RIA range vs the equilibrium dialysis range? He has no idea what to do with your 25-30 free T suggestion. It ain’t as SIMPLE as you like to claim on here. Almost no one understands units. If he’s dialed in and his provider does all this for him, he wouldn’t be on this forum or watching your videos.
Also, as soon as you throw out a number, human nature being what it is, some will shoot for that number whether that number applies or not.
As you gain more experience with doing this coaching for pay, you’ll have to bake in additional margin of safety for significant fraction who will have side effects at 25-30 ng/dL free T (trough). Homework question: If I fix free T at 25 or 30 ng/dL, then scan the range of SHBG from 10 - 60 nmol/L, what do you think the plot of TT vs SHBG looks like? What will some of these guys be running from TT standpoint (at trough)? Does it matter? It’s a sobering plot and why I predict your recommended starting dose per week will come down as you encounter more and more men.
Also, please understand where 25-30 ng/dL free T (trough) resides on the spectrum of human physiology. It’s quite high. Hence, my prediction your recommended starting dosage will decrease a little more over time as you meet guys that clear testosterone at very different rates.
I appreciate your time Danny and believe your heart is in the right place. I will minimize any further debate with you and you can take my constructive feedback for what it is worth. That will free up some of your time for your to help more people and stop wasting your time arguing with me. You aren’t a trained scientist or doctor and I shouldn’t expect you to understand all of the details I throw out. Make sure you continue to surround yourself with the right people you can leverage when these details are needed.
PS: I recommend you quit trying to reflexively demonstrate how CERTAIN you are all the time. And please as a family man don’t bet on stuff like human physiology. Better not to bet at all.
On the other side, I’ll go work on improving myself.
Take care and best wishes,
Internet random readalot
If it POSSIBLE? Yes, but I dont see the reason to do so tho.
I only have the 250 mg ampules. Quite difficult to divide it into 40 mg. That’s why I asked
.16ml = 40mg. Doesn’t seem terribly hard to do that math.
Yeah I don’t really understand why people have trouble with the math. It’s basic unit arithmetic.
Math is hard. Earth girls are easy
70 years old, here. Before I stopped TRT eight months ago(and now about to restart after my doctor reviews new labs) I decided to try low dose; 10 mg, IM, Test E, daily. TT was 903, free 268, E2 42… The numbers look good but other than a mildly increased libido, no erections, still depressed and weight gain/bloat. Over the past 7 years I’ve been on every protocol and dosage, compounded cream & pellets. Over the seven years with TRT, been on an AI and also have been AI free.
Bloat and resistant weight gain are the worst. I’m a small guy and I end up gaining 15-20 pounds. Effing miserable. Though I’ll likely be back on TRT soon, I know, based on my history, that sides will follow and I’ll be more miserable than I am, now.
Don’t want to go off topic or hijack this excellent thread but my issue, always, is serious bloat/weight gain, even on daily shots, low or medium dose. It never resolves. Can’t take b6. It seriously messes up my already compromised sleep. Ditto vitamin D. Bad enough that my erections are MIA. I know that for those of us who are outliers, finding the ‘right’ protocol and balance can be, and is, an elusive, often frustrating journey.
@crashnet Your experience gives me hope that after over a decade of ED, I MIGHT bring it back to life with ultra low dose. At one point, two years ago, I was doing 30 mg IM, daily, which was okay with my urologist. Mr. Johnson was still dead in the water with a TT of 1500, free of 500. All I got for that was bloat & weight gain of 20 lbs. Yes, I’ve been a numbers chaser because that’s what I was reading on different forums, taking those numbers as gospel that high TT & free T equal being a walking hard on. That’s what I wanted! No interest in pumping iron; just banging my wife as often as possible.
High dosages almost Always fall.
I’m awed by what you’ve achieved( along with hard work and effort) using what I would describe as microdosing. After reading this thread, I injected 5 mg, IM, and will do so everyday. Continued success.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong- but E2 Lags behind. Its out of phase with test. The test converts to E2 and that takes a bit of time. In that time Test levels are decreasing. So peak E2 is not at peak Test.
I’ve seen some better charts on it before but this is the only one I could find. It does lag behind some but not hugely… judging by this it almost looks like it just hangs at higher levels for a bit longer than T does
The image isn’t showing up for me. Can everyone else see it?
Edit: I can see the image now.
I’m the same. And unlike nebulous concepts like “brain fog” libido is something that one knows for sure he either has or doesn’t have. What was your natural level when you were first put on TRT?
Good morning, @crashnet. My answer is three parts. When I was prescribed T in 2013, my TT was 360. This was done at a large urology group, in house, and they were only equipped to check total. Eight years earlier, when I began having erectile problems, the endo at our HMO ordered total and free; 324 and 45. Now, for context, in 2012, when I was eating loads of salmon, my TT came in at 688 and free at 103. Erections were still rare and I came to learn the importance of free T. Having experienced disappointment on TRT, as have many other men, I want to believe that the ‘less is more’ protocol, for some of us, might prove to be the game changer. You and @equel are certainly living proof. Without erections and good sexual function, life is flat and grey.
On 50 mg, weekly, what’s your free T? My last protocol, which I was on for 6 months, before going off T in March, was 10 mg, IM, daily, which gave me TT of 903, free of 220 and E2 of 42. I won’t use an AI and my urologist doesn’t encourage using them. Libido was improved but still had poor erectile function. Perhaps, for me, that total was too high. Read posts by Emeric on a bodybuilding site. Like @euqel, you can’t argue with positive results. Started 5 mg, IM, daily, on Saturday. Also taking 1 grain(60mg) of NDT 3xdaily + additional 25 mcg of T3. Thanks for your thoughts and observations.
