No, fair means equal TO YOU. But this is just one of many competing, equally legitimate ideas of what is fair. Not to mention that “equal” could also be construed to mean equal portions of income.
[quote]TBT4ver wrote:Thank you for the thoughtful response. I am quite aware that there are multiple revenue streams for the federal government, but as you just said if only 40% of receipts are via federal income, focusing on one subgroup of “rich” income earners isn’t going to cure our woes, its just a scapegoat (I believe the annual number for letting the rich tax cuts expire was $38 billion). Also if we really cared that much about this uber-rich, shouldn’t we be hitting them with non-income based taxes if we were serious about lowering the gap?
I actually agree with you (and against most of the board) that higher income earners should pay a higher proportion, but at what point is enough when other people need to start pulling their weight? (This of course is a direct appeal towards significantly lowering federal spending, so that way we don’t need either low or high income earners to worry about how they will pay their taxes).[/quote]
Well, it doesn’t really matter to me exactly how you do it, I don’t have much of an opinion about that, as there are probably multiple, equally good ways to do it, but to me, this is the bottom line: the top 1% in this country earn 24% of the the income, and control an even greater percentage of total wealth.
Now, I’m not saying that they should necessarily pay 24% the income tax, but no matter how you look at it, the very richest in this country simply have far too much of the money to reasonably expect anyone else to shoulder much of the burden in balancing the budget. They ARE pulling their weight (the middle and working classes, that is). Actually, more so, if you consider the fact that they are expected to support our huge economy with their spending, and pay off their massive debts, as well. But no one talks about that.
You’re right of course; eventually, they’ll have to cut spending and raise taxes, and although this won’t be the way they go about it, the right answer is not to tap the middle and working classes even deeper. The fallacy of supply side policies is, eventually, someone has to buy all that shit you make.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You’re right of course; eventually, they’ll have to cut spending and raise taxes, and although this won’t be the way they go about it, the right answer is not to tap the middle and working classes even deeper. The fallacy of supply side policies is, eventually, someone has to buy all that shit you make.
[/quote]
That is a primitive oversimplification of supply side economics.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You’re right of course; eventually, they’ll have to cut spending and raise taxes, and although this won’t be the way they go about it, the right answer is not to tap the middle and working classes even deeper. The fallacy of supply side policies is, eventually, someone has to buy all that shit you make.
[/quote]
That is a primitive oversimplification of supply side economics.
[/quote]
Pardon me, I’m not as much of a theory guy as you. I look at results.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:Governments of course.
It is not robbing if you part with your money voluntarily.
[/quote]
I see. Then I could say that the government is not robbing you since you’re perfectly free to move to Somalia or the North pole where there is no government, correct?
[/quote]
That is true of any robber, if you succesfully flee, they do not rob you.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You’re right of course; eventually, they’ll have to cut spending and raise taxes, and although this won’t be the way they go about it, the right answer is not to tap the middle and working classes even deeper. The fallacy of supply side policies is, eventually, someone has to buy all that shit you make.
[/quote]
That is a primitive oversimplification of supply side economics.
[/quote]
Pardon me, I’m not as much of a theory guy as you. I look at results.[/quote]
You cannot really look at results in economics, unless of course it is a giant clusterfuck.
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I mean, that’s obvious. I just want to hear you say it.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
No, fair means equal TO YOU. But this is just one of many competing, equally legitimate ideas of what is fair. Not to mention that “equal” could also be construed to mean equal portions of income.
[/quote]
Fairis not taking from one person who earned it and giving it to another person who did not earn it.
It’s that simple.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:Governments of course.
It is not robbing if you part with your money voluntarily.
[/quote]
I see. Then I could say that the government is not robbing you since you’re perfectly free to move to Somalia or the North pole where there is no government, correct?
[/quote]
That is true of any robber, if you succesfully flee, they do not rob you.
[/quote]
So to recap, you’re determined that the government is a “robber,” but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I knew this was the case, of course, I just want to hear you admit it.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
You’re right of course; eventually, they’ll have to cut spending and raise taxes, and although this won’t be the way they go about it, the right answer is not to tap the middle and working classes even deeper. The fallacy of supply side policies is, eventually, someone has to buy all that shit you make.
[/quote]
That is a primitive oversimplification of supply side economics.
[/quote]
Pardon me, I’m not as much of a theory guy as you. I look at results.[/quote]
You cannot really look at results in economics, unless of course it is a giant clusterfuck.
[/quote]
You mean, unless you personally like the results.
[quote]iron lung wrote:
I’m just going to get super wealthy, buy my own island, put a brewery on it, and drink myself to death.[/quote]
I suggest central America. There are many tiny islands for sale down there. Especially in Belize where the dollar is 2/1 on the Belize dollar.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not…[/quote]
Ummm, when was the last time a private company threatened to put you in jail if you did pay for their services even though you did not want their services to begin with?!
You’re a fucking idiot. Get lost.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
No, fair means equal TO YOU. But this is just one of many competing, equally legitimate ideas of what is fair. Not to mention that “equal” could also be construed to mean equal portions of income.
[/quote]
You go to a mechanic. You need new brakes. You ask “how much?” the answer, “how much do you have and how much do you earn” That’s fair?
Of course I don’t believe that everyone needs to pay an equal amount, but adding more burden to those that earn the most is not fair. It doesn’t even make sense.
Someone else said it. 20%, off the top, no exemptions. None.
capital gains? No problem, 20%
Interest income? 20%
I have a friend, single, no kids. Very wealthy. Started with nothing. He pays school taxes? He pays leech fees on his telephone bill. That is screwed.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I mean, that’s obvious. I just want to hear you say it.[/quote]
You have to voluntarily take your money to a corporation for them to take money from you while you have to flee a government to avoid them taking it from you.
That is a pretty big difference.
Also, you can change corporations in a heartbeat, they have no standing armies, a strong incentive to stay efficient and actually provide a decent service, and so further and so on…
If your basic believes require you do ignore these most obvious differences, maybe it is not me that needs to do a reality check.
Because men with guns is as real as it gets.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I mean, that’s obvious. I just want to hear you say it.[/quote]
I have said no such thing.
You have to go to a company and offer them your money, you have to flee governments so that they do not take it by force.
Companies must offer you something you actually want or need, governments have no such incentive or obligation.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I mean, that’s obvious. I just want to hear you say it.[/quote]
I have said no such thing.
You have to go to a company and offer them your money, you have to flee governments so that they do not take it by force.
Companies must offer you something you actually want or need, governments have no such incentive or obligation.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Cortez, the Mexican that is now the richest man in the world, who on Larry King said he’d be giving away most of his money after he died.[/quote]
Carlos Slim Helu. You might find him especially interesting as his dad was a Maronite Catholic who emigrated to Mexico in the early 1900’s.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
No, fair means equal TO YOU. But this is just one of many competing, equally legitimate ideas of what is fair. Not to mention that “equal” could also be construed to mean equal portions of income.
[/quote]
Fairis not taking from one person who earned it and giving it to another person who did not earn it.
It’s that simple. [/quote]
It’s actually not that simple, because I (and millions of other Americans) do not agree that they earned it.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I mean, that’s obvious. I just want to hear you say it.[/quote]
I have said no such thing.
You have to go to a company and offer them your money, you have to flee governments so that they do not take it by force.
Companies must offer you something you actually want or need, governments have no such incentive or obligation.
[/quote]
Oh, but you did. For a government not to “rob” you, all you have to do is flee. For a company not to rob you, all you have to do, is get over your physiological need for food and water, clothing, and a place to live. You’re grasping.
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
So what you’re saying is, you’re determined that the government is a robber, but private enterprise is not, even though you basically admit there’s no difference in the situation? I mean, that’s obvious. I just want to hear you say it.[/quote]
I have said no such thing.
You have to go to a company and offer them your money, you have to flee governments so that they do not take it by force.
Companies must offer you something you actually want or need, governments have no such incentive or obligation.
[/quote]
Oh, but you did. For a government not to “rob” you, all you have to do is flee. For a company not to rob you, all you have to do, is get over your physiological need for food and water, clothing, and a place to live. You’re grasping.[/quote]
No, you are just trying the very old socialist trick of equating being “forced” by nature with being literally forced by men with guns.
The first one you can take up with God or the universe if you like, the second one is very preventable.
Also, those companies provide you cheaper with food or water than you yourself could do it.
You are perfectly free to dig a well and grow your own food.