10% Unemployment

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]thecage41 wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.[/quote]

Maybe in some cases, alot of the guys on here that talk about it fully understand the rammifications of cutting spending and are ready for it. I believe in paying for what you use. A hand up should come from voluntary organizations (church, community organizations)and individuals, not of force.

I am fully for cutting spedning, private education, privatization of all insurance, no more entitlement programs. And because I have lived my pife ensuring that I can be self reliant and not dependent on someone else, why should I have to suffer and be forced to have my money taken from to be used completely inefficiently.

What authority do you have to assume you can just STEAL what you want from those who earn it. Because I believe the contitution gives me the right to protect me, my family and my property from enemies both foreign and domestic. And it also gives me the right to be well armed so I can.

Those increasing taxes are traitors and theives and should be treated as such. Stealing money to pay off sheep.[/quote]

Taxes are not stealing, stop calling it that. It is what we all pay for living in a Modern Society. [/quote]

No in the current structure it is stealing, and according the constitution the current tax structure is technically null and void because it violated constitutional rights.

here is what the constitution says about taxes.

Article 1, Section. 8.
Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Article I, Section. 9.
Clause 4: No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.

The progressive tax code is stealing, and taking money from one person who earned it to give to another who did not is most certainly stealing. I will not stop saying that.

Someone needs a grasp on common sense.

[/quote]

Umm…16th Amendment?

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”[/quote]

Some people don’t believe it was ratified properly. Kind of like the way the current administration circumnavigates proper channels.

62

Everyones on the whole hate Obama bandwagon right now. I didnt vote for him neither would i have but the thing is Obama is impressive, his staff isnt. He was able to pass more bills and laws and supplement more changes than most presidents. The number of things he was able to pass is actually really impressive. And these were some big ticket items too the problem? the PR sucks and they cannot communicate right the things that they are doing thus no one knows the good things they have done.

Anyways, unemployment could be alot worse, alot worse, id blame more bush than anyone but we can all play the blame game eh? anyways i would say the ones are at fault would be americans. We all want everything but give nothing up. People tend to forget we live in a social contract…

63

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
Unemployment probably would have been at 10% anyways, regardless of Obama’s policies. In fact the CBO projected that he saved many jobs.[/quote]

Andy , I agree with you , but this is a no win argument [/quote]

People who keep repeating the same actions while expecting a different outcome can be described as insane.

Trillions in debt (and the evil philosophy that caused it) caused our problems. Obama and the Dems sought to cure those problems by incurring MORE debt. They are therefore insane.

They call Sarah Palin dumb for some of her statements. Did she ever propose insane debt as a cure for insane debt. Nope. She looks like a genius compared to Obama.
[/quote]
The reason Obama incurred more debt was because of the RECESSION. That is where the stimulus came in, and most economists would agree that stimulus was needed so that all these banks didn’t collapse. If that had happened, you should be happy with the 10% unemployment we have now, as opposed to what it could have been. [Look at what is happening now with Germany and the bailouts of Ireland, Greece, etc. They are trying to save the Euro, and that is very possible if they do shit correctly in the next 5 years]

Obama didn’t just start spending shit loads of money while we were in a big budget deficit - the recession happened, he acted accordingly.

And yes - you can argue that the spending (among many other reasons) he has done has caused the unemployment to stay at 10%. I would agree with that. But people fail to realize what would happen without government interaction during the recession - let me tell you, if all of the major banks collapsed - we would be quite fucked.

64

[quote]back211 wrote:
Everyones on the whole hate Obama bandwagon right now. I didnt vote for him neither would i have but the thing is Obama is impressive, his staff isnt. He was able to pass more bills and laws and supplement more changes than most presidents. The number of things he was able to pass is actually really impressive. And these were some big ticket items too the problem? the PR sucks and they cannot communicate right the things that they are doing thus no one knows the good things they have done.

Anyways, unemployment could be alot worse, alot worse, id blame more bush than anyone but we can all play the blame game eh? anyways i would say the ones are at fault would be americans. We all want everything but give nothing up. People tend to forget we live in a social contract…[/quote]

Yeah, but once that contract fit on a fucking napkin and now the small print is killing me.

65

One of my favorite economists sent out a troubling news letter this morning. Imagine if this comes to pass, unemployment will see a spike upwards.

66

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:On the same note as above, at what point are the rich “paying enough”?

The top 5% pays over 50% of the taxes already:
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Oh and of course:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1
[/quote]

Ah, this old warhorse. You may legitimately be unaware of this, but this perennial right-wing favorite is actually highly misleading. Yes, the rich pay the majority of income taxes, but so what? It’s not the only tax there is, as Libertarians never tire of reminding us. As Ron Paul says: “Abolishing the income tax on individuals would cut government revenue by about 40%.” The rest of it, payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, property taxes, most of them are regressive. Furthermore, the main reason the rich pay the most income tax is that their incomes have grown so exponentially, which is hardly a reason to give them a further cut.

Check out this chart:

or this one:

960×720 30.9 KB

So seriously, why SHOULDN’T they pay more? No one else has any money left.

67

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.[/quote]

Maybe in some cases, alot of the guys on here that talk about it fully understand the rammifications of cutting spending and are ready for it. I believe in paying for what you use. A hand up should come from voluntary organizations (church, community organizations)and individuals, not of force.

I am fully for cutting spedning, private education, privatization of all insurance, no more entitlement programs. And because I have lived my pife ensuring that I can be self reliant and not dependent on someone else, why should I have to suffer and be forced to have my money taken from to be used completely inefficiently.

What authority do you have to assume you can just STEAL what you want from those who earn it. Because I believe the contitution gives me the right to protect me, my family and my property from enemies both foreign and domestic. And it also gives me the right to be well armed so I can.

Those increasing taxes are traitors and theives and should be treated as such. Stealing money to pay off sheep.[/quote]

Taxes are not stealing, stop calling it that. It is what we all pay for living in a Modern Society. [/quote]

Of course it is not stealing, because stealing + the threat of violence = robbery.

If you legalize it and do it over and over again it is called slavery or servitude.

Glad I could clear that up.
[/quote]

Orion. a serious question:

the US government is going broke, while those poor, oppressed companies are sitting on well over $1 trillion in cash, more than they’ve practically ever had. Who is doing the robbing?

68

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:On the same note as above, at what point are the rich “paying enough”?

The top 5% pays over 50% of the taxes already:
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Oh and of course:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1
[/quote]

Ah, this old warhorse. You may legitimately be unaware of this, but this perennial right-wing favorite is actually highly misleading. Yes, the rich pay the majority of income taxes, but so what? It’s not the only tax there is, as Libertarians never tire of reminding us. As Ron Paul says: “Abolishing the income tax on individuals would cut government revenue by about 40%.” The rest of it, payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, property taxes, most of them are regressive. Furthermore, the main reason the rich pay the most income tax is that their incomes have grown so exponentially, which is hardly a reason to give them a further cut.

Check out this chart:

or this one:

960×720 30.9 KB

So seriously, why SHOULDN’T they pay more? No one else has any money left.
[/quote]

Your just a communist facist freedom hating socialist. YEAH I SAID IT

69

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.[/quote]

Maybe in some cases, alot of the guys on here that talk about it fully understand the rammifications of cutting spending and are ready for it. I believe in paying for what you use. A hand up should come from voluntary organizations (church, community organizations)and individuals, not of force.

I am fully for cutting spedning, private education, privatization of all insurance, no more entitlement programs. And because I have lived my pife ensuring that I can be self reliant and not dependent on someone else, why should I have to suffer and be forced to have my money taken from to be used completely inefficiently.

What authority do you have to assume you can just STEAL what you want from those who earn it. Because I believe the contitution gives me the right to protect me, my family and my property from enemies both foreign and domestic. And it also gives me the right to be well armed so I can.

Those increasing taxes are traitors and theives and should be treated as such. Stealing money to pay off sheep.[/quote]

Taxes are not stealing, stop calling it that. It is what we all pay for living in a Modern Society. [/quote]

Of course it is not stealing, because stealing + the threat of violence = robbery.

If you legalize it and do it over and over again it is called slavery or servitude.

Glad I could clear that up.
[/quote]

Orion. a serious question:

the US government is going broke, while those poor, oppressed companies are sitting on well over $1 trillion in cash, more than they’ve practically ever had. Who is doing the robbing?[/quote]

LEAVE BIG COMPANIES ALONE!

70

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:

[quote]optheta wrote:
Repub’s act tough when it comes to Taxes and cutting spending but all that stuff leads to a LOWER QUALITY OF LIFE and people cannot nay will not accept that. Thats why nothing will really change and everybody hopes if just keep it as it is all will be okay. People want to have their cake and eat it.[/quote]

Maybe in some cases, alot of the guys on here that talk about it fully understand the rammifications of cutting spending and are ready for it. I believe in paying for what you use. A hand up should come from voluntary organizations (church, community organizations)and individuals, not of force.

I am fully for cutting spedning, private education, privatization of all insurance, no more entitlement programs. And because I have lived my pife ensuring that I can be self reliant and not dependent on someone else, why should I have to suffer and be forced to have my money taken from to be used completely inefficiently.

What authority do you have to assume you can just STEAL what you want from those who earn it. Because I believe the contitution gives me the right to protect me, my family and my property from enemies both foreign and domestic. And it also gives me the right to be well armed so I can.

Those increasing taxes are traitors and theives and should be treated as such. Stealing money to pay off sheep.[/quote]

Taxes are not stealing, stop calling it that. It is what we all pay for living in a Modern Society. [/quote]

Of course it is not stealing, because stealing + the threat of violence = robbery.

If you legalize it and do it over and over again it is called slavery or servitude.

Glad I could clear that up.
[/quote]

Orion. a serious question:

the US government is going broke, while those poor, oppressed companies are sitting on well over $1 trillion in cash, more than they’ve practically ever had. Who is doing the robbing?[/quote]

Governments of course.

It is not robbing if you part with your money voluntarily.

71

I’m just going to get super wealthy, buy my own island, put a brewery on it, and drink myself to death.

72

I keep hearing fair being mentioned. A fair tax would be an equal dollar amount across the board, for everyone. Why people with lesser success hate those with success so much is confusing to me. Why shouldn’t they pay more? Why should they?

The gov’t, like an irresponsible child, needs to be corralled and their income stream be seriously cut until it is proven that their spending is productive.

73

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I keep hearing fair being mentioned. A fair tax would be an equal dollar amount across the board, for everyone. Why people with lesser success hate those with success so much is confusing to me. Why shouldn’t they pay more? Why should they?

The gov’t, like an irresponsible child, needs to be corralled and their income stream be seriously cut until it is proven that their spending is productive.[/quote]

you mean a regressive tax, the lower the income the higer the % of it you pay in tax. Thats absurd and just cruel. I dont believe you are entitled to use the word fair after this.

74

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]

The three richest men in the world, (Cortez?, Gates, and Buffet) have given all their money to Charity. Haha, the rich do donate. They may not donate comparatively to the poor, but they do donate.

75

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Yes, I think we should let the rich keep all of their money so that they can choose which charities to donahahahaha sorry can’t finish that sentence without dying of laughter.[/quote]

Tell that to Gates and Buffet.

I am sure that they would appreciate the joke.

[/quote]

Cortez, the Mexican that is now the richest man in the world, who on Larry King said he’d be giving away most of his money after he died.

76

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I keep hearing fair being mentioned. A fair tax would be an equal dollar amount across the board, for everyone. Why people with lesser success hate those with success so much is confusing to me. Why shouldn’t they pay more? Why should they?

The gov’t, like an irresponsible child, needs to be corralled and their income stream be seriously cut until it is proven that their spending is productive.[/quote]

you mean a regressive tax, the lower the income the higer the % of it you pay in tax. Thats absurd and just cruel. I dont believe you are entitled to use the word fair after this.

[/quote]
Cruel, but fair. fair means equal. If not, the lesser earning and lesser paying, in $ amts and % of income should shut the fuck up.

How about a tax payer appreciation day? The recipients of the generosity of the successful should honor and pay homage to those that finance their ass.

77

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
I keep hearing fair being mentioned. A fair tax would be an equal dollar amount across the board, for everyone. Why people with lesser success hate those with success so much is confusing to me. Why shouldn’t they pay more? Why should they?

The gov’t, like an irresponsible child, needs to be corralled and their income stream be seriously cut until it is proven that their spending is productive.[/quote]

you mean a regressive tax, the lower the income the higer the % of it you pay in tax. Thats absurd and just cruel. I dont believe you are entitled to use the word fair after this.

[/quote]
Cruel, but fair. fair means equal. If not, the lesser earning and lesser paying, in $ amts and % of income should shut the fuck up.

How about a tax payer appreciation day? The recipients of the generosity of the successful should honor and pay homage to those that finance their ass.[/quote]

Let me ask you this: If you had the chance, would you alter the current tax system to a regressive system today?

78

I wonder where we got the idea for a “fair” tax system? I also wonder who the first person was who thought it was “fair” to take money away from people who worked hard for it and give it to others who have not worked as hard?

The only “fair” tax system would be to first eliminate all entitlements except for those who are disabled, or too elderly to work. And elderly does not mean 65 years old. Social Security was not meant to support someone for 20+ years.

Secondly, institute a flat tax system where everyone pays 20% and there are no exceptions and no deductions or tax breaks for anyone.

As long as we have an unfair tax system and runaway government spending we will more or less be in the mess that we are in.

(Socialism doesn’t work long-term, it never has and it never will)

79

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]TBT4ver wrote:On the same note as above, at what point are the rich “paying enough”?

The top 5% pays over 50% of the taxes already:
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

Oh and of course:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1
[/quote]

Ah, this old warhorse. You may legitimately be unaware of this, but this perennial right-wing favorite is actually highly misleading. Yes, the rich pay the majority of income taxes, but so what? It’s not the only tax there is, as Libertarians never tire of reminding us. As Ron Paul says: “Abolishing the income tax on individuals would cut government revenue by about 40%.” The rest of it, payroll taxes, sales taxes, gasoline taxes, property taxes, most of them are regressive. Furthermore, the main reason the rich pay the most income tax is that their incomes have grown so exponentially, which is hardly a reason to give them a further cut.

Check out this chart:

or this one:

960×720 30.9 KB

So seriously, why SHOULDN’T they pay more? No one else has any money left.
[/quote]

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I am quite aware that there are multiple revenue streams for the federal government, but as you just said if only 40% of receipts are via federal income, focusing on one subgroup of “rich” income earners isn’t going to cure our woes, its just a scapegoat (I believe the annual number for letting the rich tax cuts expire was $38 billion). Also if we really cared that much about this uber-rich, shouldn’t we be hitting them with non-income based taxes if we were serious about lowering the gap?

I actually agree with you (and against most of the board) that higher income earners should pay a higher proportion, but at what point is enough when other people need to start pulling their weight? (This of course is a direct appeal towards significantly lowering federal spending, so that way we don’t need either low or high income earners to worry about how they will pay their taxes).

80

[quote]orion wrote:Governments of course.

It is not robbing if you part with your money voluntarily.
[/quote]

I see. Then I could say that the government is not robbing you since you’re perfectly free to move to Somalia or the North pole where there is no government, correct?