10 Reason Why Islam Isn't a Religion of Peace

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]pat wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
Why the sterotyping though?

Hitler was a catholic.

The holocast caused about 5,754,400 jew deaths.

The 911 attacks caused 2,751 deaths (mixed)

Just because we live in the west where christianity is the main religion doesnt mean that all muslims are “terrorists.”

For 2,751 deaths, all muslims were “attacked” while for almost 6 million jewish deaths, christianity wasnt.

You still stuck on that Red Herring…Get your facts strait first. Second, learn to formulate an argument.

Talk to Beowulf, he is young as well, not as young as you, but he does a good job presenting his point of view most of the time. [/quote]

It’s BeowOlf damnit. O not U. I am not associated with that shitty ass movie!

That said, thanks. :stuck_out_tongue:

Advice to Ahaz: Argue your actual point, not a point that kinda SOUNDS like your point. Hitler didn’t kill Jews in the name of Jesus. While I don’t believe every Islamic person is at fault for 9/11 (hell I think a very, tiny fraction hold any responsibility) the Koran and IMO, almost every other book of an organized religion lends itself to justifying horrible actions.

The point of this thread is this: Islam is particular is based in violence. That is what we are arguing, so stick to that. It is not about whether all Muslims are violent, it is about whether or not the religion itself lends itself more towards justifying violence or peace.

Christianity, some will argue, is about following Christ. As Christ was a pacifist, Christianity must be a religion of peace, or so they say. Others argue that a good portion of the bible, both new and old testament, is filled with passages that are equally as violent and disgusting as anything in the Koran.

Some will argue that the Bible is meant as a parable, and that the Koran is literal.

I will argue that, as parable, neither are particularly peaceful when assessed from a percentage viewpoint. However, percentage do not form the base.

If Jesus is the base of Christianity, what is the base of Islam? That is the key question. Some will argue it is Mohamed, others will say that Mohamed is simply a prophet, and that Islam is about submitting to God and following his will, just like Judaism or Christianity.

In the end, in my opinion, I think it is up to interpretation, though I will be more inclined to believe the men and women who have actually studied each book, than their opponent who has not.

102

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
Why the sterotyping though?

Hitler was a catholic.

The holocast caused about 5,754,400 jew deaths.

The 911 attacks caused 2,751 deaths (mixed)

Just because we live in the west where christianity is the main religion doesnt mean that all muslims are “terrorists.”

For 2,751 deaths, all muslims were “attacked” while for almost 6 million jewish deaths, christianity wasnt.

You still stuck on that Red Herring…Get your facts strait first. Second, learn to formulate an argument.

Talk to Beowulf, he is young as well, not as young as you, but he does a good job presenting his point of view most of the time.

It’s BeowOlf damnit. O not U. I am not associated with that shitty ass movie!

That said, thanks. :stuck_out_tongue:

Advice to Ahaz: Argue your actual point, not a point that kinda SOUNDS like your point. Hitler didn’t kill Jews in the name of Jesus. While I don’t believe every Islamic person is at fault for 9/11 (hell I think a very, tiny fraction hold any responsibility) the Koran and IMO, almost every other book of an organized religion lends itself to justifying horrible actions.

The point of this thread is this: Islam is particular is based in violence. That is what we are arguing, so stick to that. It is not about whether all Muslims are violent, it is about whether or not the religion itself lends itself more towards justifying violence or peace.

Christianity, some will argue, is about following Christ. As Christ was a pacifist, Christianity must be a religion of peace, or so they say. Others argue that a good portion of the bible, both new and old testament, is filled with passages that are equally as violent and disgusting as anything in the Koran.

Some will argue that the Bible is meant as a parable, and that the Koran is literal.

I will argue that, as parable, neither are particularly peaceful when assessed from a percentage viewpoint. However, percentage do not form the base.

If Jesus is the base of Christianity, what is the base of Islam? That is the key question. Some will argue it is Mohamed, others will say that Mohamed is simply a prophet, and that Islam is about submitting to God and following his will, just like Judaism or Christianity.

In the end, in my opinion, I think it is up to interpretation, though I will be more inclined to believe the men and women who have actually studied each book, than their opponent who has not.
[/quote]

Perfection…

103

[quote]pat wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
pat wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
Why the sterotyping though?

Hitler was a catholic.

The holocast caused about 5,754,400 jew deaths.

The 911 attacks caused 2,751 deaths (mixed)

Just because we live in the west where christianity is the main religion doesnt mean that all muslims are “terrorists.”

For 2,751 deaths, all muslims were “attacked” while for almost 6 million jewish deaths, christianity wasnt.

You still stuck on that Red Herring…Get your facts strait first. Second, learn to formulate an argument.

Talk to Beowulf, he is young as well, not as young as you, but he does a good job presenting his point of view most of the time.

It’s BeowOlf damnit. O not U. I am not associated with that shitty ass movie!

That said, thanks. :stuck_out_tongue:

Advice to Ahaz: Argue your actual point, not a point that kinda SOUNDS like your point. Hitler didn’t kill Jews in the name of Jesus. While I don’t believe every Islamic person is at fault for 9/11 (hell I think a very, tiny fraction hold any responsibility) the Koran and IMO, almost every other book of an organized religion lends itself to justifying horrible actions.

The point of this thread is this: Islam is particular is based in violence. That is what we are arguing, so stick to that. It is not about whether all Muslims are violent, it is about whether or not the religion itself lends itself more towards justifying violence or peace.

Christianity, some will argue, is about following Christ. As Christ was a pacifist, Christianity must be a religion of peace, or so they say. Others argue that a good portion of the bible, both new and old testament, is filled with passages that are equally as violent and disgusting as anything in the Koran.

Some will argue that the Bible is meant as a parable, and that the Koran is literal.

I will argue that, as parable, neither are particularly peaceful when assessed from a percentage viewpoint. However, percentage do not form the base.

If Jesus is the base of Christianity, what is the base of Islam? That is the key question. Some will argue it is Mohamed, others will say that Mohamed is simply a prophet, and that Islam is about submitting to God and following his will, just like Judaism or Christianity.

In the end, in my opinion, I think it is up to interpretation, though I will be more inclined to believe the men and women who have actually studied each book, than their opponent who has not.

Perfection…[/quote]

I am muslim, and i can safely say that it is following God’s will. Muhammad (pbuh) is simply a prophet, preaching in a sense.

Now, for everyone calling Islam a violent religion. There are certain stories which I cannot cite, firstly because i dont know where they are, and secondly my mom read these (she can translate) and told me these. This is a long time ago, so bear with me because i dont remember every single word, but many of these are like other stories also.

This one story i heard a few times, had to do with when Muhammad (pbuh) and some of his followers (not the right word, just cant think of it at 1 in the morning) went to reclaim a city that had been lost by them. They told them ahead of time, that they wont hurt any women, children, disabled people, and elders. ALSO they WILL NOT hurt ANY YOUTH (20-whatever is considered an elder) as long as they didnt attack them. The people in the city understood that they had nothing to worry about, and they didnt attack at all. It was an easy end to the problem.

Now, as i said before, the story isnt very detailed, neither is it cited.

Islam was a peaceful religion from the start. A movie was made about this (ill edit in the name after, cant remember it) whole situation, how a young musician was slowly persuaded into becoming a “terrorist,” forced to marry a woman, and rape her because she wont try to escape in hopes of saving her child, all because he was told to do it in the “name of god.” He committed murder of a fellow muslim. What was their recruitment line? “I’m going to close my eyes, and if you love your life more than you love the prophet, leave now.” Which muslim could leave at that? Once i find the name of the movie, i suggest seeing it with subtitles. Very powerful movie.

I just dont think it’s right to catogorize all muslims into one catagory. These kids in my grade used to cover their noses and mouths with their t-shirts, and act like they got AK-47’s in their hands, shooting in the air, everytime they saw me. Im not even arabic, im goddamn brown. After a while i talked to them, told them to stop sterotyping, worked pretty well.

P.S. This is my attempt at a good argument. Im pretty sure these arent out of context.

104

[quote]ahzaz wrote:
This one story i heard a few times, had to do with when Muhammad (pbuh) and some of his followers (not the right word, just cant think of it at 1 in the morning) went to reclaim a city that had been lost by them. They told them ahead of time, that they wont hurt any women, children, disabled people, and elders. ALSO they WILL NOT hurt ANY YOUTH (20-whatever is considered an elder) as long as they didnt attack them. The people in the city understood that they had nothing to worry about, and they didnt attack at all. It was an easy end to the problem.
[/quote]

Did the city surrender and the people were spared? The Mongols had the same rule.

105

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
This one story i heard a few times, had to do with when Muhammad (pbuh) and some of his followers (not the right word, just cant think of it at 1 in the morning) went to reclaim a city that had been lost by them. They told them ahead of time, that they wont hurt any women, children, disabled people, and elders. ALSO they WILL NOT hurt ANY YOUTH (20-whatever is considered an elder) as long as they didnt attack them. The people in the city understood that they had nothing to worry about, and they didnt attack at all. It was an easy end to the problem.

Did the city surrender and the people were spared? The Mongols had the same rule.[/quote]

Are you seriously comparing Mohamed to Ghensis Khan?

106

[quote]ahzaz wrote:

I am muslim, and i can safely say that it is following God’s will. Muhammad (pbuh) is simply a prophet, preaching in a sense.

Now, for everyone calling Islam a violent religion. There are certain stories which I cannot cite, firstly because i dont know where they are, and secondly my mom read these (she can translate) and told me these. This is a long time ago, so bear with me because i dont remember every single word, but many of these are like other stories also.

This one story i heard a few times, had to do with when Muhammad (pbuh) and some of his followers (not the right word, just cant think of it at 1 in the morning) went to reclaim a city that had been lost by them. They told them ahead of time, that they wont hurt any women, children, disabled people, and elders. ALSO they WILL NOT hurt ANY YOUTH (20-whatever is considered an elder) as long as they didnt attack them. The people in the city understood that they had nothing to worry about, and they didnt attack at all. It was an easy end to the problem.

Now, as i said before, the story isnt very detailed, neither is it cited.

Islam was a peaceful religion from the start. A movie was made about this (ill edit in the name after, cant remember it) whole situation, how a young musician was slowly persuaded into becoming a “terrorist,” forced to marry a woman, and rape her because she wont try to escape in hopes of saving her child, all because he was told to do it in the “name of god.” He committed murder of a fellow muslim. What was their recruitment line? “I’m going to close my eyes, and if you love your life more than you love the prophet, leave now.” Which muslim could leave at that? Once i find the name of the movie, i suggest seeing it with subtitles. Very powerful movie.

I just dont think it’s right to catogorize all muslims into one catagory. These kids in my grade used to cover their noses and mouths with their t-shirts, and act like they got AK-47’s in their hands, shooting in the air, everytime they saw me. Im not even arabic, im goddamn brown. After a while i talked to them, told them to stop sterotyping, worked pretty well.

P.S. This is my attempt at a good argument. Im pretty sure these arent out of context.[/quote]

It’s much batter. A bit scattered but at least on topic. Here’s some advice on how to discuss. First come to a conclusion, a point which can be a thought on the matter a counter argument or what not. Once you have a focal point let your discussion either come to that conclusion, or support it if it were stated first. That just makes it much more cohesive to read and understand what you are trying to say. Most of that will come with age, but this is good practice.
To answer what I think you were saying. I don’t know if islam is a religion of peace or not, I can’t speak to that. I can speak to the behaviour of muslims in the world and I see intolerance, hatred, and violence. Whether or not they learn it from islam, I don’t know, but there is an awful lot of it. To damn much of it.
I cannot support the assertion that it is just a few kooks doing this stuff. There is just to many acts of violence happening. So far there have been over 10,000 acts of violence committed by muslims in the name if islam since 9/11! This is more than the work of a few religious zealots, this is a bonafide problem with in islam. While I see muslims condemn and protest movies, cartoons, teddy bears named Mohamed, Israel, the U.S., etc. I don’t see a single protest against the violence and murder that some muslims are doing. Why? Why is it ok to kill “Jew pigs” and Zionists, and even fellow muslims who may not quite agree?
It seems like most muslims would just prefer we look the other way and not notice what is happening, but that is just a little hard to do when it happens all the damn time.

107

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
This one story i heard a few times, had to do with when Muhammad (pbuh) and some of his followers (not the right word, just cant think of it at 1 in the morning) went to reclaim a city that had been lost by them. They told them ahead of time, that they wont hurt any women, children, disabled people, and elders. ALSO they WILL NOT hurt ANY YOUTH (20-whatever is considered an elder) as long as they didnt attack them. The people in the city understood that they had nothing to worry about, and they didnt attack at all. It was an easy end to the problem.

Did the city surrender and the people were spared? The Mongols had the same rule.[/quote]

Are you seriously comparing Mohamed to Ghensis Khan?

108

[quote]pat wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
It’s much batter. A bit scattered but at least on topic. Here’s some advice on how to discuss. First come to a conclusion, a point which can be a thought on the matter a counter argument or what not. Once you have a focal point let your discussion either come to that conclusion, or support it if it were stated first. That just makes it much more cohesive to read and understand what you are trying to say. Most of that will come with age, but this is good practice.
To answer what I think you were saying. I don’t know if islam is a religion of peace or not, I can’t speak to that. I can speak to the behaviour of muslims in the world and I see intolerance, hatred, and violence. Whether or not they learn it from islam, I don’t know, but there is an awful lot of it. To damn much of it.
I cannot support the assertion that it is just a few kooks doing this stuff. There is just to many acts of violence happening. So far there have been over 10,000 acts of violence committed by muslims in the name if islam since 9/11! This is more than the work of a few religious zealots, this is a bonafide problem with in islam. While I see muslims condemn and protest movies, cartoons, teddy bears named Mohamed, Israel, the U.S., etc. I don’t see a single protest against the violence and murder that some muslims are doing. Why? Why is it ok to kill “Jew pigs” and Zionists, and even fellow muslims who may not quite agree?
It seems like most muslims would just prefer we look the other way and not notice what is happening, but that is just a little hard to do when it happens all the damn time.[/quote]

That was the whole purpose of the movie. It was to bring attention towards the methods of these “leaders” who force the youth into leaving everything they have and do “terrorist” acts. These acts of violence are ALL a plot. These leaders dont even follow the true Islam. They’re just leaders that want to have more control, more land.

An example which i can, once again, roughly relate to, was when one of the pope’s was atheist. This was at the time where popes held more power than the king, so everyone would try to become a pope just so they could have more control, weather they are christian or atheist.

These “leaders” are just power-hungry people. Instead of seeing them as “islamic leaders,” you could see them as “terrorist group leaders” because thats just what they are. A few MIGHT not even be muslim.

109

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Did the city surrender and the people were spared? The Mongols had the same rule.

Are you seriously comparing Mohamed to Ghensis Khan?[/quote]

LOL

110

[quote]lixy wrote:

Are you seriously comparing Mohamed to Ghensis Khan?[/quote]

That was the rule. If the city surrendered, the people were spared, if not, they were all killed.

Oh yeah, it’s spelled Genghis, or Jenghiz.

I was comparing a rule of battle. Not Muhammad and Genghis.

111

[quote]ahzaz wrote:
pat wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
It’s much batter. A bit scattered but at least on topic. Here’s some advice on how to discuss. First come to a conclusion, a point which can be a thought on the matter a counter argument or what not. Once you have a focal point let your discussion either come to that conclusion, or support it if it were stated first. That just makes it much more cohesive to read and understand what you are trying to say. Most of that will come with age, but this is good practice.
To answer what I think you were saying. I don’t know if islam is a religion of peace or not, I can’t speak to that. I can speak to the behaviour of muslims in the world and I see intolerance, hatred, and violence. Whether or not they learn it from islam, I don’t know, but there is an awful lot of it. To damn much of it.
I cannot support the assertion that it is just a few kooks doing this stuff. There is just to many acts of violence happening. So far there have been over 10,000 acts of violence committed by muslims in the name if islam since 9/11! This is more than the work of a few religious zealots, this is a bonafide problem with in islam. While I see muslims condemn and protest movies, cartoons, teddy bears named Mohamed, Israel, the U.S., etc. I don’t see a single protest against the violence and murder that some muslims are doing. Why? Why is it ok to kill “Jew pigs” and Zionists, and even fellow muslims who may not quite agree?
It seems like most muslims would just prefer we look the other way and not notice what is happening, but that is just a little hard to do when it happens all the damn time.

That was the whole purpose of the movie. It was to bring attention towards the methods of these “leaders” who force the youth into leaving everything they have and do “terrorist” acts. These acts of violence are ALL a plot. These leaders dont even follow the true Islam. They’re just leaders that want to have more control, more land.

An example which i can, once again, roughly relate to, was when one of the pope’s was atheist. This was at the time where popes held more power than the king, so everyone would try to become a pope just so they could have more control, weather they are christian or atheist.

These “leaders” are just power-hungry people. Instead of seeing them as “islamic leaders,” you could see them as “terrorist group leaders” because thats just what they are. A few MIGHT not even be muslim.[/quote]

Maybe they are and maybe they are not, but they claim to be muslim and doing it for islam. There is a distinct lack of rage from the muslim community regarding their behavior.

112

[quote]pat wrote:
Maybe they are and maybe they are not, but they claim to be muslim and doing it for islam. There is a distinct lack of rage from the muslim community regarding their behavior.
[/quote]

We are pretty damn pissed at them, but where they are (Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Kashmir) We can do much about.

This summer, I went on a trip to saudia arabia, pakistan, london, wales, oman, etc. I went to a few middle eastern counteries, south asian, and british counteries. So all-in-all i had to go through a LOT of security.

My little brother’s first name is Muhammad. Because of that, at the british security, they interrogated us more than usual. “Where are you going? how long? what are you going to do? are u going to go anywhere else?” etc. More than what they asked the usual people.

I also noted (while i was in line) that whoever was brown (south asian) or middle eastern was interrogated for longer. White and black people were hardly interrogated.

The media is very powerful. Terrorist attacks caused us to have to go through so much at ALL those terminals. Lots of us are outraged at what these people are doing. Its just that we dont get the media’s attention. We’ve all heard of the rumour on how Bush doesnt want to leave Iraq so he can get their oil right? The government controls the media. Connection much?

113

[quote]pat wrote:
There is a distinct lack of rage from the muslim community regarding their behavior. [/quote]

How would you know if you don’t ask?

114

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
There is a distinct lack of rage from the muslim community regarding their behavior.

How would you know if you don’t ask?[/quote]

Good point.

115

[quote]ahzaz wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
There is a distinct lack of rage from the muslim community regarding their behavior.

How would you know if you don’t ask?

Good point.[/quote]

I believe that’s the crux of the issue. People expect information handed to them and believe that media outlets give every voice its due weight. Forgetting, all the while, that it’s about sensational stories to turn shit green.

And you gotta love the use of “muslim community” in his assertion. There’s not even a semblance of unity to speak of.

116

[quote]lixy wrote:
ahzaz wrote:
lixy wrote:
pat wrote:
There is a distinct lack of rage from the muslim community regarding their behavior.

How would you know if you don’t ask?

Good point.

I believe that’s the crux of the issue. People expect information handed to them and believe that media outlets give every voice its due weight. Forgetting, all the while, that it’s about sensational stories to turn shit green.

And you gotta love the use of “muslim community” in his assertion. There’s not even a semblance of unity to speak of.[/quote]

Ok so how does if make you feel when people hijack your religion to do evil vs. say, the Iraq war? More, less, or equal?

117

The problem is that people see these big bad terrorists associated with this religion. Dave Chappelle is Muslim, do you think he’d blow himself up?

Like I’ve said before, all organized religion carries it’s fair share of crazies, but Islam seems to have the more aggressive ones.

If we’re going to nitpick at religions, let’s look at Hindu fundamentalists who went nuts because Richard Gere kissed that broad on TV. What about the KKK?

The biggest problem is that religion gets twisted and corrupted my people over the centuries, and most fundamentalists have a shitty bullshit detector.

I say we all make a religion that takes the best of all the ones we have now. But that would only work in a perfect world, which sadly, this is not.

118

General Sir Charles James Napier (reputedly) embodied a cultural confidence I find rather admirable. From wikipedia:

[i]A story for which Napier is famous involves a delegation of Hindu locals approaching him and complaining about prohibition of Sati, often referred to at the time as suttee, by British authorities. This was the custom of burning widows alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands. The exact wording of his response varies somewhat in different reports, but the following version captures its essence:

“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.” [/i]

119

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

A story for which Napier is famous involves a delegation of Hindu locals approaching him and complaining about prohibition of Sati, often referred to at the time as suttee, by British authorities. This was the custom of burning widows alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands.[/quote]

That’s an interesting point, because Sati was never part of traditional Hinduism. Another example of human corruption.

That said, what he said is pretty damn awesome.

120

Islam is growing up its the youngest of the three major relgions.

Catholics and jews had the holy crusades this is Islam’s version just in the modern era.

Also catholics were crazy until they had the reformation about 150 years ago maybe even a 100 years ago i don’t know the dates off the top of my head but it happened and made catholics a lot more relaxed and less crazy then what they once were.

Islam is now under going or trying to undergo the same sort of thing. Turkey are the ones leading the charge we will most likely be dead or fairly old when all this takes affect because. It normally takes a generation for the wheels to turn but it will happen.

Also I have no idea how you can say its not a religion when the 1st testament and the Koran (spelling) and the Tanakh (is that the jewish bible i cant remember) are all pretty much the same.

Jesus Christ is even meant to be buried near Mohammad!!!

p.s i am catholic in case any one wanted to know