Multiculturalism taken to the extreme leads to divisiveness. Immigration with assimilation is good.
Pretty simple really.
[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
I would say the emerging culture of instant gratification and entitlement is a serious problem. Or the current state of education is a problem. Hyphens don’t bother me so much.
[/quote]
Instant gratification and entitlement have nothing to do with the lack of identity, and I would argue they are a pseudo-intellectual discussion piece: nobody will really argue against them, but they don’t add anything new to any relevant discussion.
The lack of identity has to do with the perversion of “tolerance.” Let’s allow immigrants to come here and encourage them to keep their own language (nothing wrong with that) and live in their own communities (nothing wrong with that). What happens over time when we provide multilingual phone menus for every possible government service? Allow bilingual education? Let these people set up nearly their own communities almost like mini sovereign states within the actual states of the country?
It creates a differential between them and the larger community. It gives them incentive to stick together and NOT have to integrate, and each immigrant who comes here inherently believes that taking on an “American identity” is this colonial style flushing out of their motherland values. It doesn’t have to be, and in fact other countries manage to balance both the central culture and the immigrant’s mother culture quite well–just look at Brazil.
That’s what I’m getting at. There’s no incentive to mix in the US. It’s retarded. I’m in the Bay Area and there’s a LOT of mixing and I like that, but generally speaking, communities can establish themselves and get buy without having to mix much outside of the community, and that means less incentive to care about national politics, national culture, national values.
Most immigrants only act American when they want benefits from the government. That’s when everybody’s “American.”[/quote]
About language, many older immigrants still speak their native tongue, if you sit in the kitchen of any of these people’s homes, you’ll hear the women talking in tongues from Russia, Poland, France, Spain, Ukraine, &c. in the kitchen as they prepare the food. Exactly that, it’s “in the kitchen.” As well, you’ll hear it in their social clubs and their “ethnic” business, but you don’t much hear it anywhere else unless it’s a mother admonishing her young children. However, it stays “in the kitchen.” The recent immigrants don’t do this, they don’t attempt to learn English. I learned that this summer.
I went into an immigrant neighborhood and maybe 3 out of 20 homes had someone that spoke English, the rest only spoke Spanish. Thankfully, I spoke Spanish so I could get a days work done. However, it is interesting to think about how these people live if they can’t speak anything but English in a English population.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
It is the lack of national identity that has crippled this country. This is the only country who retains a hyphen when describing Americans and the type of Americans. You don’t see this in any other part of the world. [/quote]
Could you elaborate ?
[/quote]
By maintaining this cultural divide, it keeps us from being one people. The use of a hyphen is a metaphorical line drawn in the sand, and it has worked at keeping at arms distance of others. [/quote]
Well, I’m a Catholic-American. 
I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring to here, but it takes several generations and a ignorance of one’s own heritage to assimilate into “Americanism” which can properly be described as a Conservative English colonialism. I came from Irish stock, as well as, Spanish stock and it’s been 4-5 generations on one side, and like two on the other. However, the heritage is still strong in my family.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Immigrants, moreover, have the duty to integrate into the host Country, respecting its laws and its national identity.[/quote]
I hope that one day we can abandon the concept of national identity, and accept the greater common identity of our shared humanity.[/quote]
And the very second the Martians land to feed us to their reptile overlords your wish shall b e granted.
Until then there is too much to be gained by splitting the unwashed masses and pit them against each other.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
It’s because of this positivism and “rights” that people think they have. I know the root of the problem (our fallen nature) however the manifestation is the idea that people have “rights” when they clearly do not. I have a right to free education! No, you do not. I have a right to marry! No, you don’t. I have a right to have sex! No, you do not. I have a right to equal dividends! No, you don’t.
[/quote]
Chris! Are you implying that we have no rights whatsoever? In the sense of god given rights, I’d agree, no such thing. But can’t we, as a society, say that all human beings are entitled to some basic “privileges” like education, health care, or freedom to marry?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re driving at, either.
Besides the fact that America is the greatest country in the world, and the fact that I would fight and die for my country (which has been scaled back to I’ll fight and die for my property, I wouldn’t fight to oppress people, but if someone attacked America I’d have no problem) and the fact that patriotism is a good virtue to have.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Revolution?[/quote]
Chris, I think I was attacking that blind nationalism that is represented by people who don’t have the sense to include the caveat that you did. I would also take it one step further.
Ultimately, the division created by thinking about it as an us (Americans) vs. them (foreigners living in America) is much more damaging then anything done by the foreigners who try to retain part, or even all, of their heritage. This kind of provincial thinking results in scapegoating and detracts from real issues that warrant scrutiny. I would claim that this is also a product of an unhealthy sense of nationalism.
[quote]orion wrote:
And the very second the Martians land to feed us to their reptile overlords your wish shall b e granted.
Until then there is too much to be gained by splitting the unwashed masses and pit them against each other.
[/quote]
Quoted for truth.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
It’s because of this positivism and “rights” that people think they have. I know the root of the problem (our fallen nature) however the manifestation is the idea that people have “rights” when they clearly do not. I have a right to free education! No, you do not. I have a right to marry! No, you don’t. I have a right to have sex! No, you do not. I have a right to equal dividends! No, you don’t.
[/quote]
Chris! Are you implying that we have no rights whatsoever? In the sense of god given rights, I’d agree, no such thing. But can’t we, as a society, say that all human beings are entitled to some basic “privileges” like education, health care, or freedom to marry?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re driving at, either.
Besides the fact that America is the greatest country in the world, and the fact that I would fight and die for my country (which has been scaled back to I’ll fight and die for my property, I wouldn’t fight to oppress people, but if someone attacked America I’d have no problem) and the fact that patriotism is a good virtue to have.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Revolution?[/quote]
Chris, I think I was attacking that blind nationalism that is represented by people who don’t have the sense to include the caveat that you did. I would also take it one step further.
Ultimately, the division created by thinking about it as an us (Americans) vs. them (foreigners living in America) is much more damaging then anything done by the foreigners who try to retain part, or even all, of their heritage. This kind of provincial thinking results in scapegoating and detracts from real issues that warrant scrutiny. I would claim that this is also a product of an unhealthy sense of nationalism.[/quote]
On a day by day basis, God is being removed from government and schooling, so the idea of what is a God given right could easily be argued. The Left will argue for God given rights when it suits their interests only.
The Left would argue that those “privileges” are rights. And that is all fine and dandy until it comes to paying for it (health care and education). We here in California (which seems to be where you are) subsidize a SHIT TON, which is one of the reasons why we are taxed so high. Now we are at a point where it’s unsustainable, and you are now infringing on the rights of taxpayers. So who is to blame? The government of course which has handgifted this Socialist mentality (at least in this state) with little to no benefit. We have some really poor graduation rates for our schools, so the idea of pouring more money into it is a waste. Schooling is not a right (not post high school at least). You now have people arguing to lower college admission requirements because it’s too hard. Well not everyone was meant to go to college, and it weeds out the lazy and/or stupid.
We have a welfare state that has crippled us, to the point of bankruptcy.
This “kumbaya” idea of providing for all sounds wonderful on paper, but when you try to pay for it through taxation by attrition, you get ass fucked without lube.
California is the best example of why having HUGE government programs is a guarantee for failure. When you have more people taking from the system then putting into it, that’s taking the fast lane to bankruptcy.
[quote]miloofcroton wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
It’s because of this positivism and “rights” that people think they have. I know the root of the problem (our fallen nature) however the manifestation is the idea that people have “rights” when they clearly do not. I have a right to free education! No, you do not. I have a right to marry! No, you don’t. I have a right to have sex! No, you do not. I have a right to equal dividends! No, you don’t.
[/quote]
Chris! Are you implying that we have no rights whatsoever? In the sense of god given rights, I’d agree, no such thing. But can’t we, as a society, say that all human beings are entitled to some basic “privileges” like education, health care, or freedom to marry?[/quote]
You have it backwards. We do have G-d given rights. However, education, health care, and marriage is not one of them. 'Ever since Paine’s Rights of Man was published, the notion of inalienable natural rights has been embraced by the mass of men in a vague and belligerent form, ordinarily confounding “rights” with desires.
‘The lengthy catalogue of modern “rights” ignores the two essential conditions which are attached to all true rights; first, the capacity of individuals to claim and exercise the alleged right; second, the correspondent duty that is married to every right. If a man has a right to marry, some woman must have the duty to marrying him; if a man has a right to rest, some other person must have the duty of supporting him. If rights are confused thus with desires, the mass of men must feel always that some vast, intangible conspiracy thwarts their attainment of what they hold is their inalienable birthright.’ - Kirk.
[quote]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re driving at, either.
Besides the fact that America is the greatest country in the world, and the fact that I would fight and die for my country (which has been scaled back to I’ll fight and die for my property, I wouldn’t fight to oppress people, but if someone attacked America I’d have no problem) and the fact that patriotism is a good virtue to have.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at? Revolution?[/quote]
Chris, I think I was attacking that blind nationalism that is represented by people who don’t have the sense to include the caveat that you did. I would also take it one step further.
Ultimately, the division created by thinking about it as an us (Americans) vs. them (foreigners living in America) is much more damaging then anything done by the foreigners who try to retain part, or even all, of their heritage. This kind of provincial thinking results in scapegoating and detracts from real issues that warrant scrutiny. I would claim that this is also a product of an unhealthy sense of nationalism.[/quote]
I’m not following, are you saying that those that cling to their culture are a product of nationalism? Or, are you saying those with unfounded prejudice (not saying prejudice is bad, but unfounded prejudice) create a kind of civil war between cultures in country that disables diversity and assimilation?