OK to Beat Gays and Women? Or Untenable Postions...

Given the accusations of gay-hating and whatnot on the other thread, I thought it might be interesting to look at an actual problem in that area.

Very interesting piece by Cathy Young in Reason – she’s looking at the untenable nature of two pillars of modern western-liberal politics. It’s kind of hard to lionize gay rights and women’s rights, and simulataneously refuse to make value judgments on culturals that glorify practices of violence against women and gays. Unless you make stuff up to blame the evil white males (see below) so you don’t have to deal with it…

And it’s really hard to be for open borders and immigration, for preserving immigrant cultures, and for women/gay/minority-religion rights.

I know what I think – It’s all about assimilation to the values of the destination country, i.e. the “Melting Pot”. I’m interested to see what everyone else thinks.

Multiculturalism: It’s Different for Girls

When is it politically correct to beat gays and kill women?

Cathy Young

On April 30, American journalist Chris Crain became the victim of a hate crime in Amsterdam. While walking in the street holding hands with his partner, he was savagely beaten by seven men shouting antigay slurs ( http://www.queerday.com/2005/may/05/chris_crain_and_boyfriend_gay_bashed_in_amsterdam.html ). A few days later, Scott Long, director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Program at the Human Rights Watch, expressed some sympathy for the gay-bashers. Crain’s attackers were reportedly Moroccan immigrants.

“There’s still an extraordinary degree of racism in Dutch society,” Long opined to the gay news service PlanetOut ( here-tv ). “Gays often become the victims of this when immigrants retaliate for the inequities that they have to suffer.”

Welcome to Politically Correct World, where acts that would merit unequivocal condemnation if committed by white males are viewed in a very different light when the offenders belong to an “oppressed group.”

The irony, of course, is that one of the principal reasons for the recent anti-immigrant backlash in the traditionally tolerant Netherlands is the fear that the influx of immigrants from deeply conservative Muslim cultures will threaten the country’s liberal attitudes on social issues, particularly the rights of women and gays. (Pim Fortuyn ( http://www.reason.com/hod/cf050702.shtml ), the maverick anti-immigrant Dutch politician assassinated in 2002, was openly gay.) This fear is shared by some immigrants?notably, the Somali-born politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali ( http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/ned030110.html ).

The tension between two pillars of the modern left?multiculturalism and progressive views on gender?is not new. It has been particularly thorny in many European countries where, in lieu of an American-style “melting pot” approach, immigrants have been traditionally encouraged to maintain their distinct values and ways. Recently, however, these tensions have started to come out into the open. According to a March article in the German magazine, Der Spiegel ( http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,344374,00.html ), the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by an Islamic extremist last November after he had made a documentary about the oppression of Muslim women “galvanized the Netherlands and sent shock waves across Europe.”

In Germany, these shock waves have generated a long-overdue interest in the sometimes deadly violence toward Muslim women, mostly in the country’s 2.5-million-strong Turkish immigrant community. A German-Turkish women’s group has documented 40 “honor killings” since 1996?murders of women and girls by family members as punishment for besmirching the “family honor.” In February, 23-year-old Hatin Surucu was shot to death in Berlin, allegedly by her three brothers. The young woman had divorced the cousin she had been forced to marry at 16; she had also started dating German men, given up her head scarf, and enrolled in a training course to become an electrician. What made headlines, Der Spiegel reports, was not the murder itself but a letter from a school principal reporting that some Turkish boys at his school had mocked Surucu as a “whore” who “got what she deserved.”

“Honor killings” may be relatively rare; but a recent study by the German government found that half of the country’s Turkish women are pressured into arranged marriages?often to men they have never seen before the wedding?and more than one in six say they were forced to marry.

Serap Cileli, a Turkish-German author and filmmaker who escaped an arranged marriage, told Der Spiegel that until recently, the German media refused to publish her accounts of her and other Turkish women’s experiences for fear of appearing “racist.”

Even feminists often balk at breaking the multicultural faith. A 2001 article in Labyrinth, a feminist philosophy journal, lamented that concerns about the oppression of women in the Third World could perpetuate “the stereotype that ‘brown’ men abuse ‘brown’ women more than white men” and cause “Third World” people to be perceived as “more barbaric” than Westerners ( http://labyrinth.iaf.ac.at/2001/Smith.html ).

My intent is not to single out Muslim immigrants in Western countries nor to argue that Islam is inherently and uniquely oppressive to women; many Muslim feminists argue otherwise. Oppressive practices can be found in many other traditional societies.

Misogyny and gay-bashing?religiously motivated or not?still exist in Western societies as well, though at least they are widely condemned by the mainstream culture. We should be able to say, loud and clear, that the modern values of individual rights, equality, and tolerance are better?and just say no to multiculturalist excuses for bigotry.

Cathy Young is a Reason contributing editor. This column originally appeared in the Boston Globe.

I don’t quite see what you are trying to say.

I’m guessing you are saying (that the author is stating) that in Europe liberal groups are unwilling to take a stand against culturally driven abuse?

The laws of the land are supposed to override any cultural practices… are they not?

BB:

That is one of the problems (only one) that I have with the social liberals.

It seems to me if something is wrong then it’s wrong. And two gays being attacked and beaten is wrong! Gays have a right to walk the street and not get beaten up, seems pretty simple. Matters not if two guys named bubba did the beating, or a gang of immigrants.

In the world of the politically correct, also know as la la land, the person who does the crime and who the crime is perpetrated against makes all the difference in the world.

There should be no such thing as “hate crimes.” Did you ever see a “love crime?”

Let’s protect the weak and defenseless, whoever they are, and let’s prosecute the people who are out of control and in a rage, whoever they are!

I guess that does make far to much sense for the social liberals!

Fuck it.

Why do people move to another country if they don’t actually like what that country has to offer? I mean, if you are a fundamentalist in any religion (ie a moral crusader to the extreme) why the hell would you move to somewhere like the Netherlands?

If a country has been good enough to let you move there (for what ever reason) then you should respect their laws and culture.

Using culture as an excuse to denigrate a person, reduce their rights, or cause actual physical harm is being an absolute coward.

“It’s their culture!!”. I can hear the hippies crying this as I type, but you know what - not all culture is good. Some culture is down right vile and if it’s against the laws of the country that you live, you should be punished to the full extent of the law.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Did you ever see a “love crime?”
[/quote]

Euthanasia - but that would be a different thread.

Zeb, could you define “social liberals”, because I’m pretty certain I don’t know any… ?

There seem to be two issues: moral relativism and excused crimes. I think moral relativism is pure bullshit when it comes to anything that matters (violent crimes, anything malicious really). And I also think it’s bullshit to say that someone comes from a bad background, so you can’t blame them for their actions. Man up and take responsibility.

I can’t wait to delve further into this one. Just a few musings to start with:

I’m (for once) almost in line with ZEB - anything involving violence is … wrong. There can be a few justifications for violence conducted by the state (against crime, riots, etc.), and even fewer by private citizens (self-defense) but the violence monopoly has to remain with the state and has to be carefully controlled. Full-stop.

As for German “immigration” policy: Germany’s approach to this has off long been very problematic. As opposed to the NL or the UK, it has followed a quite clear non-integrative approach, treating its de facto (but not de jure) immigrants as “guests” only - for example not granting citizenship, even if you are born into the Country in 3rd generation. But, in this (silly) approach, they have also tried to ignore socio-cultural conflicts arising. This makes it different from the UK and the NL, but the mix is off course similarly explosive.

For BB’s initial question, my answer is clear: If anyone condones any form of illegal violence, they need to get their heads checked. There is no cultural/social justification for being violent to anyone outside the confines of the law (of a free and democratic state).

Sorry, gotta go.
Makkun

[quote]vroom wrote:
That is one of the problems (only one) that I have with the social liberals.

Zeb, could you define “social liberals”, because I’m pretty certain I don’t know any… ?[/quote]

Look in the mirror!

Zeb,

That is plain evil and I’m shocked. You are totally out of line.

Never would I condone voilence because someone happened to be from an ethnic group – and perhaps it wasn’t clear, but that was what my comment above implied.

I can’t believe what some people will choose to believe about another simply because they don’t like their views or expressed opinions.

You and a certain other misfit have sunk very low lately. It is not in keeping at all with your own espoused beliefs.

vroom:

Um…knock it off.

You know I was responding to this comment from you:

“Zeb, could you define “social liberals”, because I’m pretty certain I don’t know any… ?”

To which my response is “Look in the mirror.”

Stop playing the part of the offended when there is no offense. Unless of course you find that being called a “social liberal” offensive.

Zeb,

I might have been mistaken, but I thought you suggested social liberals condone the type of activity described in Boston’s article.

If you truly are suggesting I condone that, I find it deeply offensive. If that isn’t what you are saying, then simply educate me on the matter.

It’s PC crap like this that makes me almost ashamed to be a liberal.
But, let’s not tar all liberals with the same brush, Zeb and BB. The sort of people who would excuse a despicable act just because it is being committed by a minority group, or because of some false notion of moral relativism, are at the very far left. Extremists. I’m sure the majority of liberals would be horrified by the acts themselves, and equally horrified that anyone would want to excuse them.

Massif

That would be one of the issues wrt immigration in the U.S. Lately it seems that the liberal media and politicians seem to think it is our job to accomodate them more so than they adjusting to life here.

It’s now required to offer classes in their language in alot of areas. Forced to bring in extra teachers and aids to accomodate their needs. Not to teach them English, but to translate to their language.

I’m all for keeping some of your custooms and culture, but it wouldn’t hurt to seem them make more of an effort to conform to the culture they have chosen to move to, as opposed to us making all of the concessions.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb,

I might have been mistaken, but I thought you suggested social liberals condone the type of activity described in Boston’s article.

If you truly are suggesting I condone that, I find it deeply offensive. If that isn’t what you are saying, then simply educate me on the matter.[/quote]

It’s a strawman approach to take an incident which involved a ‘member of a group’- in this case a liberal- and present it as if it is representative of the whole group. It’s wrong.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Massif

That would be one of the issues wrt immigration in the U.S. Lately it seems that the liberal media and politicians seem to think it is our job to accomodate them more so than they adjusting to life here.

It’s now required to offer classes in their language in alot of areas. Forced to bring in extra teachers and aids to accomodate their needs. Not to teach them English, but to translate to their language.

I’m all for keeping some of your custooms and culture, but it wouldn’t hurt to seem them make more of an effort to conform to the culture they have chosen to move to, as opposed to us making all of the concessions.

[/quote]

I personally believe that some of the problem is that many Anglo people don’t actually see what they have as their own “culture”, so they don’t think they have anything to protect. You hear it all the time that we have to be sensitive to other people’s cultures, and I agree to a point. But we also have to be sensitive to our own cultures.

Positive aspects of all cultures should be encouraged. If someone’s culture is directly at odds with where they are moving to, then either change your views or don’t move. That’s why I’ll never live in Iran. Or Utah.

[quote]vroom wrote:
I don’t quite see what you are trying to say.

I’m guessing you are saying (that the author is stating) that in Europe liberal groups are unwilling to take a stand against culturally driven abuse?

The laws of the land are supposed to override any cultural practices… are they not?[/quote]

They are. However, many liberal groups refuse to take a stand – even on issues they would supposedly champion, i.e. feminists and female-abuse – because of the untenable nature of their hallowing of the idea of relativism in cultural values. They won’t claim that Western ideas of individual rights for women should trump cultural (at least if it’s not Western culture) mores. They won’t come out and condemn beliefs in non-Western cultures.

And it’s blatantly hypocritical.

[quote]Massif wrote:

Positive aspects of all cultures should be encouraged. If someone’s culture is directly at odds with where they are moving to, then either change your views or don’t move. That’s why I’ll never live in Iran. Or Utah.[/quote]

I agree with this, but your first statement begs the question of how we determine what is positive, especially if people refuse to embrace the idea that some cultures and ideas at least have aspects that are better than others. The complete embrace of cultural relativism makes that well nigh impossible.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
It’s PC crap like this that makes me almost ashamed to be a liberal.
But, let’s not tar all liberals with the same brush, Zeb and BB. The sort of people who would excuse a despicable act just because it is being committed by a minority group, or because of some false notion of moral relativism, are at the very far left. Extremists. I’m sure the majority of liberals would be horrified by the acts themselves, and equally horrified that anyone would want to excuse them.[/quote]

I don’t think it’s all liberals deano, and I don’t think I said that. But it is the loudest voices in acadamia, especially in areas like feminist and ethinic studies, that most embrace the idea of complete relativism with respect to cultural mores.

Boston,

Interesting stuff. Reminds me of the undergraduate days when I had anthro/sociology professors insisting that there was no such thing as ‘superior’ cultural practices, and yet out of the same mouth admitted that an egalitarian society is preferable to a stratified one. While also touting that there were no ‘universal rules’ regarding culture, they insisted that imperialism and the subjugation of indigenous cultures was universally wrong.

Seems like the Netherlands is going to be ground-zero for this battle of values. The situation there is the classic case of having such an open mind that the brain has fallen out.

Will people who love their liberal - and I mean liberal in the broadest sense to the word - lifestyle be willing to fight for those cherished institutions under attack?

We may be surprised.