Yet Another Gyno Thread

Pharma / TRT
21

Since I have arimidex coming, I was hoping to not change anything and keep it at 250mg test-e E3D. I have just under 4 weeks left.

I took 40mgs of nolva the first night, 40 the second morning and evening, and will be taking forty for the rest of a week. I planned on taking 20 thereafter, but would like to know how to transition from the nolva to the AI. Any help?

That little piece of tissue seems to have already reduced in size. I now notice no hardness and less swelling of my nipples despite the continued cold, which leads me to believe I was discounting a feeling I should have been paying attention to. Again, I’ll just be safe and run a good, solid AI from now on.

[quote]2thepain wrote:
Cortes wrote:
2thepain wrote:
Too bad I didn’t read your thread closer. I strongly argue against anyone using proviron as a form of AI. Low dose Adex is far superior to proviron in that aspect. Proviron is best used for its SHBG effects.
As suggested above nolv is now the answer.

Thanks 2thepain, have already started.

I ignored those warnings and probably would have ignored you, had you told me, because I am a stubborn ass. I’ve learned better, now.

I forgot to ask, but how long do you have left in your cycle and what are your plans for the duration? I.E. adjusted dosages or duration of use?[/quote]

22

My guess would be that you would run the nolva through the end of your cycle, since your so close to the end. Wasn’t that once the way, until a’dex was found to work better? The alternative would be to run the nolva, taper it off, start the a’dex, taper it off, only to restart the nolva towards the end of the test taper, which doesn’t make much sense. But again, only a guess.

5.0

23

Of course the above statement assumes that nolva and a’dex can’t be run simultaneously, which I don’t know…

24

if you have four weeks left and will be doing a test taper for recovery i would continue with the nolva. once your a-dex comes overlap the two, tapering the nolva down by cycle end, and continuing with a-dex through the test taper period (tapering the a-dex out by midway through the test taper as it is not necessary once you are below 100 mg per week, since rebound is highly unlikely)

25

[quote]Cortes wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
proviron is not a substitute for a true AI like a-dex, letro or a-sin. the effectiveness of proviron (all applications) is drastically over rated IMHO.

i would finish your cycle and incorporate a nolva protocol immediately. I don’t know if an AI would be necessary at the moment, but have one on hand.

80 mg day one and 40 mg ED until symptoms are gone/under control. you can then taper the nolva out.

not much else to add. if you had full blown gyno symptoms it would be simple to advise a letro protocol (the vastly superior choice for combating gyno)…but it doesn’t seem warranted here.

Thanks juice.

Not questioning the validity, just curious why both you and Tone suggest a big pop (60-80mgs) the first day. I started last night with 40. Would you suggest a larger dose today or just keep it at 40?

Also, am I to expect this length of tissue to disappear, or am I to see a dropping off in any hardness, soreness or swelling in my nipples only?

Sorry for all the stupid questions, but I obviously want to take care of this.[/quote]

  1. There are reasons not to take such a large dose.
    Tamoxifen itself is a mixed agonist/antagonist; i.e., the native compound is weakly estrogenic. A dose of 40 mg per day may be liver toxic (not a worry here), but it may definitely increase the risk of blood clotting (and deep vein thrombosis has been reported in men taking the drug).

Second: there are 2 principal metabolites of tamoxifen which are 100 x more powerful anti-estrogens, and these metabolites rise over a week or so and stick around for about 2 weeks after cessation.

So a big “loading dose” may have an unnecessary risk and no increased benefit.
I do not know why some folks here recommend a taper of tam; it is “self-tapering.”
The dose for men should be 20 mg, but there are studies that show a dose of 10 mg can be effective over a course of 3 months.

  1. Regarding anastrazole (Arimidex) taken with tamoxifen: Good question. In women with breast cancer, they are antagonistic (the results are worse than using an aromatase inhibitor alone!). I do not have information for using the combo for men with gynecomastia. Reason would suggest that they would be additive, but without data, all bets are off.
26

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

  1. Regarding anastrazole (Arimidex) taken with tamoxifen: Good question. In women with breast cancer, they are antagonistic (the results are worse than using an aromatase inhibitor alone!). I do not have information for using the combo for men with gynecomastia. Reason would suggest that they would be additive, but without data, all bets are off.

[/quote]

Hmm. Thanks for answering that one, although it seems to still not be answered. I wonder does anyone have any personal experience with the combo? The safe side sounds like what juice recommended. Although keep the a’dex to a low dose (.25 every two to three days) while on the taper so you don’t encourage the estrogen rebound.

I’m curious, though, why not recommend just stay on the nolva, since during the taper he’s looking to increase his body’s natural test levels?

27

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Cortes wrote:
juice20jd wrote:
proviron is not a substitute for a true AI like a-dex, letro or a-sin. the effectiveness of proviron (all applications) is drastically over rated IMHO.

i would finish your cycle and incorporate a nolva protocol immediately. I don’t know if an AI would be necessary at the moment, but have one on hand.

80 mg day one and 40 mg ED until symptoms are gone/under control. you can then taper the nolva out.

not much else to add. if you had full blown gyno symptoms it would be simple to advise a letro protocol (the vastly superior choice for combating gyno)…but it doesn’t seem warranted here.

Thanks juice.

Not questioning the validity, just curious why both you and Tone suggest a big pop (60-80mgs) the first day. I started last night with 40. Would you suggest a larger dose today or just keep it at 40?

Also, am I to expect this length of tissue to disappear, or am I to see a dropping off in any hardness, soreness or swelling in my nipples only?

Sorry for all the stupid questions, but I obviously want to take care of this.

  1. There are reasons not to take such a large dose.
    Tamoxifen itself is a mixed agonist/antagonist; i.e., the native compound is weakly estrogenic. A dose of 40 mg per day may be liver toxic (not a worry here), but it may definitely increase the risk of blood clotting (and deep vein thrombosis has been reported in men taking the drug).
    Second: there are 2 principal metabolites of tamoxifen which are 100 x more powerful anti-estrogens, and these metabolites rise over a week or so and stick around for about 2 weeks after cessation.
    So a big “loading dose” may have an unnecessary risk and no increased benefit.
    I do not know why some folks here recommend a taper of tam; it is “self-tapering.”
    The dose for men should be 20 mg, but there are studies that show a dose of 10 mg can be effective over a course of 3 months.

  2. Regarding anastrazole (Arimidex) taken with tamoxifen: Good question. In women with breast cancer, they are antagonistic (the results are worse than using an aromatase inhibitor alone!). I do not have information for using the combo for men with gynecomastia. Reason would suggest that they would be additive, but without data, all bets are off.

[/quote]

Thanks, great post, Dr. Skeptix, though this almost raises more questions that it answers for me. I have heard from as many folks that 40mgs is way too much for men and to keep the dosage at 20mgs a day. Thinking about dropping to this.

Regarding the anastrozole, I think I want to go with the nolva for 2 to 3 weeks, then switch to the AI, but I am really thinking about this now and will probably start an entirely new post, as I may have to leave the country much earlier than expected and may just have to go with “standard” PCT for this first cycle of mine.

Good news is that in the meantime I seem to have everything under control with nolva. We’ll see how long I can ride this tiger.

28

[quote]juice20jd wrote:
if you have four weeks left and will be doing a test taper for recovery i would continue with the nolva. once your a-dex comes overlap the two, tapering the nolva down by cycle end, and continuing with a-dex through the test taper period (tapering the a-dex out by midway through the test taper as it is not necessary once you are below 100 mg per week, since rebound is highly unlikely)[/quote]

Thanks again juice, good stuff. I will follow your advice unless life intervenes, as it appears it may in that I may have to go with standard PCT because of an international flight.

We’ll see and if so I’ll start a new thread.