Yeah, I'm Gay...and I Love a Muscle Guy!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I think we are arguing about nothing.[/quote]

I know, that’s what we usually do here on T Nation. (Looks around)

Actually, if you go back to my earliest point on the topic I made that distinction. However, I can fully understand you not getting it. There are many posts to read and we have all said various things on the topic. From gay marriage, to HIV.

Glad we agree jsbrook. I have usually found you to be a bright young guy. Granted you’re a liberal and are blind to some issues, but no one is perfect :wink:
[/quote]

Thanks. We were definitely talking past each other. And I’m not a liberal. I consider myself a social and fiscal moderate. Fiscally I lean towards the conservative end. I am opposed to a great many of the policies of this administration. I think the way these forums define liberal, conservative, and everywhere in between is seriously out of whack.[/quote]

Let’s just say compared to me you’re a liberal. But, glad to hear you oppose many of the things that this administration is doing. I can honestly say that I have not agreed with even one single thing that Obama has done. I have not felt this way since Jimmy Carter. Yea, I’m that old. Ha, I even agreed with Bill Clinton on several of his initiatives.
[/quote]

Won’t disagree on the comparative characterization, though in my view that’s not a bad thing. No offense. The current lot of politicians is perhaps a sorrier crew than at any time in history. Sad.

222

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I think we are arguing about nothing.[/quote]

I know, that’s what we usually do here on T Nation. (Looks around)

Actually, if you go back to my earliest point on the topic I made that distinction. However, I can fully understand you not getting it. There are many posts to read and we have all said various things on the topic. From gay marriage, to HIV.

Glad we agree jsbrook. I have usually found you to be a bright young guy. Granted you’re a liberal and are blind to some issues, but no one is perfect :wink:
[/quote]

Thanks. We were definitely talking past each other. And I’m not a liberal. I consider myself a social and fiscal moderate. Fiscally I lean towards the conservative end. I am opposed to a great many of the policies of this administration. I think the way these forums define liberal, conservative, and everywhere in between is seriously out of whack.[/quote]

Let’s just say compared to me you’re a liberal. But, glad to hear you oppose many of the things that this administration is doing. I can honestly say that I have not agreed with even one single thing that Obama has done. I have not felt this way since Jimmy Carter. Yea, I’m that old. Ha, I even agreed with Bill Clinton on several of his initiatives.
[/quote]

Won’t disagree on the comparative characterization, though in my view that’s not a bad thing. No offense. The current lot of politicians is perhaps a sorrier crew than at any time in history. Sad. [/quote]

I agree, I had to hold my nose when I voted for John McCain. He was the absolute sorriest republican that has ever run for the oval office. But, of course light years better than Obama, but then who wouldn’t be?

223

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I hold no stock with these absurdist slippery slope agruments. [/quote]

Right, because things never move in the direction of the momentum in which they are caught up in, right?

This entire country is in a gigantic mess because of the slippery slope.

  1. Certainly 50 years ago years ago was it looked down on for a man and woman who were not married to cohabitate? Fast forward, not only do they cohabitate, they now have children with that illicit union.

Why it’s bad: There is no comittment and a man, or woman are more apt to end the illicit relationship. This not only tears at the fabric of society, by leaving children without one, or both parents. [/quote]

I personally believe that children do better with two parents. However, there is no way to enforce this unless you pass laws criminalizing cohabitation, for example. Do we really want to put people in jail for living together?

Child support laws extend to all children regardless of whether they were born in a marriage or out of wedlock.

I have lived a little. My libertarian attitude comes from experience, not just from reading nice theoretical arguments. I’ve learned over the years that you can’t fix stupid. There are, and always will be, stupid people who will do stupid things. If I could be elected “tyrant for a day,” you know would I would do? People with below average IQ would be subject to mandatory and forced sterilization. I realize that IQ is not a perfect measure of mental powers but it’s not bad.

There will always be “bad examples” and “bad influences” out there and no amount of legislation will take that away. So rather than relying on society to raise my child, I do it myself. I don’t try to overprotect my child - that doesn’t build the necessary skills to deal with “bad influences” when she is old enough to leave my house and live on her own. Rather, I don’t fear bad influences, I welcome them. I encourage critical thinking and discussion about these issues. I try to be a good role model and father figure so that she doesn’t need to seek male attention from a boyfriend who may only be after one thing. This will go way farther than worrying about whether gays can get married.

224

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I hold no stock with these absurdist slippery slope agruments. [/quote]

Right, because things never move in the direction of the momentum in which they are caught up in, right?

This entire country is in a gigantic mess because of the slippery slope.

  1. Certainly 50 years ago years ago was it looked down on for a man and woman who were not married to cohabitate? Fast forward, not only do they cohabitate, they now have children with that illicit union.

Why it’s bad: There is no comittment and a man, or woman are more apt to end the illicit relationship. This not only tears at the fabric of society, by leaving children without one, or both parents. [/quote]

I personally believe that children do better with two parents. However, there is no way to enforce this unless you pass laws criminalizing cohabitation, for example. Do we really want to put people in jail for living together?

Child support laws extend to all children regardless of whether they were born in a marriage or out of wedlock.

I have lived a little. My libertarian attitude comes from experience, not just from reading nice theoretical arguments. I’ve learned over the years that you can’t fix stupid. There are, and always will be, stupid people who will do stupid things. If I could be elected “tyrant for a day,” you know would I would do? People with below average IQ would be subject to mandatory and forced sterilization. I realize that IQ is not a perfect measure of mental powers but it’s not bad.

There will always be “bad examples” and “bad influences” out there and no amount of legislation will take that away. So rather than relying on society to raise my child, I do it myself. I don’t try to overprotect my child - that doesn’t build the necessary skills to deal with “bad influences” when she is old enough to leave my house and live on her own. Rather, I don’t fear bad influences, I welcome them. I encourage critical thinking and discussion about these issues. I try to be a good role model and father figure so that she doesn’t need to seek male attention from a boyfriend who may only be after one thing. This will go way farther than worrying about whether gays can get married.[/quote]

You’ve taken my example of what society was like 50 years ago and run with it. Why I don’t know, and quite frankly I don’t care. You seem like a reasonable guy, just a mistake. By the way it’s great that you spend time with your daughter, more people should think like you regarding family time.

Either way, I’m still against gay marriage. Can you believe that? All these posts and my mind has not changed, nor has anyone else’s. Hmm, how else can we waste time? How about throwing cards in a hat at 10 feet? At least that would actually develop some sort of hand eye coordination, which is more than going back and forth on this nonsense will do. Then again I have become a better typist from my years on T Nation.

225

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

I hold no stock with these absurdist slippery slope agruments. [/quote]

Right, because things never move in the direction of the momentum in which they are caught up in, right?

This entire country is in a gigantic mess because of the slippery slope.

  1. Certainly 50 years ago years ago was it looked down on for a man and woman who were not married to cohabitate? Fast forward, not only do they cohabitate, they now have children with that illicit union.

Why it’s bad: There is no comittment and a man, or woman are more apt to end the illicit relationship. This not only tears at the fabric of society, by leaving children without one, or both parents. [/quote]

I personally believe that children do better with two parents. However, there is no way to enforce this unless you pass laws criminalizing cohabitation, for example. Do we really want to put people in jail for living together?

Child support laws extend to all children regardless of whether they were born in a marriage or out of wedlock.

I have lived a little. My libertarian attitude comes from experience, not just from reading nice theoretical arguments. I’ve learned over the years that you can’t fix stupid. There are, and always will be, stupid people who will do stupid things. If I could be elected “tyrant for a day,” you know would I would do? People with below average IQ would be subject to mandatory and forced sterilization. I realize that IQ is not a perfect measure of mental powers but it’s not bad.

There will always be “bad examples” and “bad influences” out there and no amount of legislation will take that away. So rather than relying on society to raise my child, I do it myself. I don’t try to overprotect my child - that doesn’t build the necessary skills to deal with “bad influences” when she is old enough to leave my house and live on her own. Rather, I don’t fear bad influences, I welcome them. I encourage critical thinking and discussion about these issues. I try to be a good role model and father figure so that she doesn’t need to seek male attention from a boyfriend who may only be after one thing. This will go way farther than worrying about whether gays can get married.[/quote]

You’ve taken my example of what society was like 50 years ago and run with it. Why I don’t know, and quite frankly I don’t care. You seem like a reasonable guy, just a mistake. By the way it’s great that you spend time with your daughter, more people should think like you regarding family time.

Either way, I’m still against gay marriage. Can you believe that? All these posts and my mind has not changed, nor has anyone else’s. Hmm, how else can we waste time? How about throwing cards in a hat at 10 feet? At least that would actually develop some sort of hand eye coordination, which is more than going back and forth on this nonsense will do. Then again I have become a better typist from my years on T Nation.

[/quote]

Usually threads like these degenerate into name calling. However, this thread has, overall, been a good discussion. I understand your position that bad role models encourage bad behavior. I once thought the same thing. I’m not denying that environment and society in general influence behavior. However, after years of meeting and observing different types of people, I don’t think societal influence is as big as some people think. I also think that genetics determines personality traits to a large extent - more than most people care to admit. My point is that I don’t believe even a little that allowing gay marriage will destroy society. The evidence I’ve gained from my personal experience simply does not support such a conclusion.

226

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:

I think we are arguing about nothing.[/quote]

I know, that’s what we usually do here on T Nation. (Looks around)

Actually, if you go back to my earliest point on the topic I made that distinction. However, I can fully understand you not getting it. There are many posts to read and we have all said various things on the topic. From gay marriage, to HIV.

Glad we agree jsbrook. I have usually found you to be a bright young guy. Granted you’re a liberal and are blind to some issues, but no one is perfect :wink:
[/quote]

Thanks. We were definitely talking past each other. And I’m not a liberal. I consider myself a social and fiscal moderate. Fiscally I lean towards the conservative end. I am opposed to a great many of the policies of this administration. I think the way these forums define liberal, conservative, and everywhere in between is seriously out of whack.[/quote]

Let’s just say compared to me you’re a liberal. But, glad to hear you oppose many of the things that this administration is doing. I can honestly say that I have not agreed with even one single thing that Obama has done. I have not felt this way since Jimmy Carter. Yea, I’m that old. Ha, I even agreed with Bill Clinton on several of his initiatives.
[/quote]

Won’t disagree on the comparative characterization, though in my view that’s not a bad thing. No offense. The current lot of politicians is perhaps a sorrier crew than at any time in history. Sad. [/quote]

I agree, I had to hold my nose when I voted for John McCain. He was the absolute sorriest republican that has ever run for the oval office. But, of course light years better than Obama, but then who wouldn’t be?[/quote]

I actually liked McCain because he was a moderate. Like jsbrook, I consider myself fiscally conservative but libertarian on social issues. I would guess that a majority are like this. Unfortunately, we have no meaningful choice in elections anymore. It’s time for a third party.

227

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
ZEB wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Ct. Rockula wrote:
What will stop me from marrying another species if gay marraige is moved forward? My puppy and I love each other very much…don’t we deserve to be happy?

AND Polygmy has to be the norm too

I’m trying to marry a bunch of puppies

you cant stop my love its not your call

I wouldn’t care if you wanted to enjoin yourself in a polygamous civil union with consenting adults.

You can’t prove the puppies are consenting, or adult, something people need to be to enter into a contract, so no you can’t enter into your ridiculous analogy.

But you can with incestuous relationships, if both brother and sister are consenting adults, right?

Would you care to pay even higher insurance bills and watch the crime rate go up because of the ill and deranged children that such a union would produce? Sure why not? We have to let everyone do whatever it is they want, right?

I wonder how low we can sink in this country before, well, we sink?

Zeb, I don’t know if I would be in favor for incestuous civil unions. I do think you are given to hyperbole.

You seem to set a big precedent on tradition so you must know that in some cultures it was the tradition for brothers to marry sisters or nieces to marry uncles, even mothers to marry sons.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware of this. And in some cultures they pray to snakes, and still others used to throw virgins into volcano’s. Now how does this make for a better America? Oh yea, it doesn’t.
[/quote]

and daughter abuse… like in the bible

you didn’t include that when you quoted me

228

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
My point is that I don’t believe even a little that allowing gay marriage will destroy society. The evidence I’ve gained from my personal experience simply does not support such a conclusion.[/quote]

It’s just one more step in the wrong direction. Jerry Springer didn’t destroy society either, but does it help? You know, oral sex in the oval office, runaway budget deficits, half the country supporting the other half. Two wars that can never really be won without our constant presence. I could go on, but you get the idea. Everything seems to be pulling us down. Where are the positive institutions that help build our country. Legalize gay marriage today and on Tuesday Polygamists will want their shot- And can you blame them? The spiral continues. I think I’ll just get a tub of popcorn and watch the demise from my picture window.

229

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

I actually liked McCain because he was a moderate. Like jsbrook, I consider myself fiscally conservative but libertarian on social issues. I would guess that a majority are like this. Unfortunately, we have no meaningful choice in elections anymore. It’s time for a third party.[/quote]

The majority of your generation is in fact like this. You were raised with the idea that whatever someone else does is fine as long as they don’t impose it on you. What they didn’t tell you is that eventually just about everything effects everyone - eventually. But, hey you’ll see that soon enough 10-15 years or so.

230

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
ZEB wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Ct. Rockula wrote:
What will stop me from marrying another species if gay marraige is moved forward? My puppy and I love each other very much…don’t we deserve to be happy?

AND Polygmy has to be the norm too

I’m trying to marry a bunch of puppies

you cant stop my love its not your call

I wouldn’t care if you wanted to enjoin yourself in a polygamous civil union with consenting adults.

You can’t prove the puppies are consenting, or adult, something people need to be to enter into a contract, so no you can’t enter into your ridiculous analogy.

But you can with incestuous relationships, if both brother and sister are consenting adults, right?

Would you care to pay even higher insurance bills and watch the crime rate go up because of the ill and deranged children that such a union would produce? Sure why not? We have to let everyone do whatever it is they want, right?

I wonder how low we can sink in this country before, well, we sink?

Zeb, I don’t know if I would be in favor for incestuous civil unions. I do think you are given to hyperbole.

You seem to set a big precedent on tradition so you must know that in some cultures it was the tradition for brothers to marry sisters or nieces to marry uncles, even mothers to marry sons.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware of this. And in some cultures they pray to snakes, and still others used to throw virgins into volcano’s. Now how does this make for a better America? Oh yea, it doesn’t.
[/quote]

and daughter abuse… like in the bible

you didn’t include that when you quoted me

[/quote]

Yeah, I get it you want to stomp on the bible (yawn) good for you. I’ve never seen anything like that before on these forums. WOW, you are just so, um so new age wonderful. I’d get in to a discussion regarding the bible with you, but honestly would it make a difference? Nope.

231

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

I actually liked McCain because he was a moderate. Like jsbrook, I consider myself fiscally conservative but libertarian on social issues. I would guess that a majority are like this. Unfortunately, we have no meaningful choice in elections anymore. It’s time for a third party.[/quote]

The majority of your generation is in fact like this. You were raised with the idea that whatever someone else does is fine as long as they don’t impose it on you. What they didn’t tell you is that eventually just about everything effects everyone - eventually. But, hey you’ll see that soon enough 10-15 years or so.[/quote]

You’re exactly right that this is my philosophy. I don’t know that I was necessarily raised with this idea; I think I came to this conclusion myself after realizing that people are going to do what they want to do and that I’d rather not live in a society with a Morality Police. Keep in mind that I don’t actively encourage the so-called alternative lifestyles but neither do I condemn them. It may not be my thing, but if it works for you, it’s none of my business. You see a slippery slope going one way, towards immorality and lawlessness, while I see it going another, towards totalitarianism and societal control of our personal lives. When does the Morality Police come knocking on everyone’s door requesting marriage license documents to make sure that if a man and woman are living in the house they are not living “in sin?”

232

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
My point is that I don’t believe even a little that allowing gay marriage will destroy society. The evidence I’ve gained from my personal experience simply does not support such a conclusion.[/quote]

It’s just one more step in the wrong direction. Jerry Springer didn’t destroy society either, but does it help? You know, oral sex in the oval office, runaway budget deficits, half the country supporting the other half. Two wars that can never really be won without our constant presence. I could go on, but you get the idea. Everything seems to be pulling us down. Where are the positive institutions that help build our country. Legalize gay marriage today and on Tuesday Polygamists will want their shot- And can you blame them? The spiral continues. I think I’ll just get a tub of popcorn and watch the demise from my picture window.
[/quote]

Every generation says this. My parents also predicted that my generation would see the demise of civilized society. We’re still here. I don’t know where you live or what kind of people you meet, but the kids and parents I meet now give me lots of hope for the future. Lots. And I’m a very cynical person. I realize that I’m part of a small group of people who have very bright children who go to a special school for gifted kids, and that things are much worse in the regular schools. It’s too bad that all kids can’t be gifted, but I have no control over that. So I just concentrate on my little corner of the world because things look pretty good here.

233

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
ZEB wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Ct. Rockula wrote:
What will stop me from marrying another species if gay marraige is moved forward? My puppy and I love each other very much…don’t we deserve to be happy?

AND Polygmy has to be the norm too

I’m trying to marry a bunch of puppies

you cant stop my love its not your call

I wouldn’t care if you wanted to enjoin yourself in a polygamous civil union with consenting adults.

You can’t prove the puppies are consenting, or adult, something people need to be to enter into a contract, so no you can’t enter into your ridiculous analogy.

But you can with incestuous relationships, if both brother and sister are consenting adults, right?

Would you care to pay even higher insurance bills and watch the crime rate go up because of the ill and deranged children that such a union would produce? Sure why not? We have to let everyone do whatever it is they want, right?

I wonder how low we can sink in this country before, well, we sink?

Zeb, I don’t know if I would be in favor for incestuous civil unions. I do think you are given to hyperbole.

You seem to set a big precedent on tradition so you must know that in some cultures it was the tradition for brothers to marry sisters or nieces to marry uncles, even mothers to marry sons.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware of this. And in some cultures they pray to snakes, and still others used to throw virgins into volcano’s. Now how does this make for a better America? Oh yea, it doesn’t.
[/quote]

and daughter abuse… like in the bible

you didn’t include that when you quoted me

[/quote]

Yeah, I get it you want to stomp on the bible (yawn) good for you. I’ve never seen anything like that before on these forums. WOW, you are just so, um so new age wonderful. I’d get in to a discussion regarding the bible with you, but honestly would it make a difference? Nope.
[/quote]

Wouldn’t make a difference for me because I think that ALL religions (and that includes most “new age” religions which you seem to dislike) are just bullshit stories.

234

`[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
My point is that I don’t believe even a little that allowing gay marriage will destroy society. The evidence I’ve gained from my personal experience simply does not support such a conclusion.[/quote]

It’s just one more step in the wrong direction. Jerry Springer didn’t destroy society either, but does it help? You know, oral sex in the oval office, runaway budget deficits, half the country supporting the other half. Two wars that can never really be won without our constant presence. I could go on, but you get the idea. Everything seems to be pulling us down. Where are the positive institutions that help build our country. Legalize gay marriage today and on Tuesday Polygamists will want their shot- And can you blame them? The spiral continues. I think I’ll just get a tub of popcorn and watch the demise from my picture window.
[/quote]

Every generation says this. My parents also predicted that my generation would see the demise of civilized society. We’re still here. I don’t know where you live or what kind of people you meet, but the kids and parents I meet now give me lots of hope for the future. Lots. And I’m a very cynical person. I realize that I’m part of a small group of people who have very bright children who go to a special school for gifted kids, and that things are much worse in the regular schools. It’s too bad that all kids can’t be gifted, but I have no control over that. So I just concentrate on my little corner of the world because things look pretty good here.
[/quote]

And every generation is correct. So, at some point we must go downhill. I think we are nearing (not there yet) that point. Don’t make me quote the statistics to you, it’s time consuming and I just don’t want to do it, I’m just too busy.

235

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
ZEB wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Ct. Rockula wrote:
What will stop me from marrying another species if gay marraige is moved forward? My puppy and I love each other very much…don’t we deserve to be happy?

AND Polygmy has to be the norm too

I’m trying to marry a bunch of puppies

you cant stop my love its not your call

I wouldn’t care if you wanted to enjoin yourself in a polygamous civil union with consenting adults.

You can’t prove the puppies are consenting, or adult, something people need to be to enter into a contract, so no you can’t enter into your ridiculous analogy.

But you can with incestuous relationships, if both brother and sister are consenting adults, right?

Would you care to pay even higher insurance bills and watch the crime rate go up because of the ill and deranged children that such a union would produce? Sure why not? We have to let everyone do whatever it is they want, right?

I wonder how low we can sink in this country before, well, we sink?

Zeb, I don’t know if I would be in favor for incestuous civil unions. I do think you are given to hyperbole.

You seem to set a big precedent on tradition so you must know that in some cultures it was the tradition for brothers to marry sisters or nieces to marry uncles, even mothers to marry sons.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware of this. And in some cultures they pray to snakes, and still others used to throw virgins into volcano’s. Now how does this make for a better America? Oh yea, it doesn’t.
[/quote]

and daughter abuse… like in the bible

you didn’t include that when you quoted me

[/quote]

Yeah, I get it you want to stomp on the bible (yawn) good for you. I’ve never seen anything like that before on these forums. WOW, you are just so, um so new age wonderful. I’d get in to a discussion regarding the bible with you, but honestly would it make a difference? Nope.
[/quote]

Wouldn’t make a difference for me because I think that ALL religions (and that includes most “new age” religions which you seem to dislike) are just bullshit stories.
[/quote]

There you go, now don’t you feel better? Being a young male who works out there is no need, or even the slightest desire to believe.

Got it.

236

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]makkun wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I’m not suggesting that. On the same token if someone knows that they’re infected with HIV and willingly passes the virus on to another through some sort of sexual intercourse that person should be handed a jail sentence.[/quote]

Ahem, just saying, that’s not really a question at all. I’m pretty sure there have been convictions for consciously infecting someone with HIV. There have been in Germany, I’m pretty sure in Britain - I’d be surprised if not in the US. Why is this raised as hypothetical?

Makkun[/quote]

Tell me, how many people get prosecuted for this in the US? Do you know? I’ll give you a hint, very few.[/quote]

Don’t know about the US on this - it could be because it might happen a lot less than you think.

Makkun

237

[quote]ZEB wrote:
`[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
My point is that I don’t believe even a little that allowing gay marriage will destroy society. The evidence I’ve gained from my personal experience simply does not support such a conclusion.[/quote]

It’s just one more step in the wrong direction. Jerry Springer didn’t destroy society either, but does it help? You know, oral sex in the oval office, runaway budget deficits, half the country supporting the other half. Two wars that can never really be won without our constant presence. I could go on, but you get the idea. Everything seems to be pulling us down. Where are the positive institutions that help build our country. Legalize gay marriage today and on Tuesday Polygamists will want their shot- And can you blame them? The spiral continues. I think I’ll just get a tub of popcorn and watch the demise from my picture window.
[/quote]

Every generation says this. My parents also predicted that my generation would see the demise of civilized society. We’re still here. I don’t know where you live or what kind of people you meet, but the kids and parents I meet now give me lots of hope for the future. Lots. And I’m a very cynical person. I realize that I’m part of a small group of people who have very bright children who go to a special school for gifted kids, and that things are much worse in the regular schools. It’s too bad that all kids can’t be gifted, but I have no control over that. So I just concentrate on my little corner of the world because things look pretty good here.
[/quote]

And every generation is correct. So, at some point we must go downhill. I think we are nearing (not there yet) that point. Don’t make me quote the statistics to you, it’s time consuming and I just don’t want to do it, I’m just too busy.[/quote]

So the advances in medicine, science, and technology are all meaningless? You don’t think we’re better off than we were 20 or 30 years ago?

238

Just to follow up from what I just referred to:

'Some laws criminalize consensual sexual activity between adults on the basis that one of the individuals is a person with HIV who failed to disclose their status to their partner. CDC data and other studies, however, tell us that intentional HIV transmission is atypical and uncommon.155 A recent research study also found that HIV-specific laws do not influence the behavior of people living with HIV in those states where these laws exist.

156 While we understand the intent behind such laws, they may not have the desired effect and they may make people less willing to disclose their status by making people feel at even greater risk of discrimination. In some cases, it may be appropriate for legislators to reconsider whether existing laws continue to further the public interest and public health. In many instances, the continued existence and enforcement of these types of laws run counter to scientific evidence about routes of HIV transmission and may undermine the public health goals of promoting HIV screening and treatment.157,158’
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/uploads/NHAS.pdf

A good follow up link is: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/reports/pdf/hiv_prev_us.pdf

Essentially what is stated - besides confirming that black and poor people are significantly overrepresented amongst new HIV infections (as I stated earlier) - that legislation seems to be outdated (in terms of proven ways of transmission) and not effective in preventing transmission. In summary, what helps is not blaming and per… ah prosecuting - but educating and making people take responsibility via knowledge and awareness. Both of which have been the best measures so far, which have helped prevent a spread into the wider heterosexual population.

Makkun

239

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
ZEB wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Ct. Rockula wrote:
What will stop me from marrying another species if gay marraige is moved forward? My puppy and I love each other very much…don’t we deserve to be happy?

AND Polygmy has to be the norm too

I’m trying to marry a bunch of puppies

you cant stop my love its not your call

I wouldn’t care if you wanted to enjoin yourself in a polygamous civil union with consenting adults.

You can’t prove the puppies are consenting, or adult, something people need to be to enter into a contract, so no you can’t enter into your ridiculous analogy.

But you can with incestuous relationships, if both brother and sister are consenting adults, right?

Would you care to pay even higher insurance bills and watch the crime rate go up because of the ill and deranged children that such a union would produce? Sure why not? We have to let everyone do whatever it is they want, right?

I wonder how low we can sink in this country before, well, we sink?

Zeb, I don’t know if I would be in favor for incestuous civil unions. I do think you are given to hyperbole.

You seem to set a big precedent on tradition so you must know that in some cultures it was the tradition for brothers to marry sisters or nieces to marry uncles, even mothers to marry sons.[/quote]

Yes, I am aware of this. And in some cultures they pray to snakes, and still others used to throw virgins into volcano’s. Now how does this make for a better America? Oh yea, it doesn’t.
[/quote]

and daughter abuse… like in the bible

you didn’t include that when you quoted me

[/quote]

Yeah, I get it you want to stomp on the bible (yawn) good for you. I’ve never seen anything like that before on these forums. WOW, you are just so, um so new age wonderful. I’d get in to a discussion regarding the bible with you, but honestly would it make a difference? Nope.
[/quote]

Wouldn’t make a difference for me because I think that ALL religions (and that includes most “new age” religions which you seem to dislike) are just bullshit stories.
[/quote]

There you go, now don’t you feel better? Being a young male who works out there is no need, or even the slightest desire to believe.

Got it.
[/quote]

You’re making an assumption here without even knowing much about me. And you’re also very wrong. First, I don’t know that I’m that young anymore. At 42, I feel young, but I guess I’d be considered middle aged. And religion makes less and less sense the older I get. Second, I want to believe, I really do. Who wouldn’t? Belief in a benevolent being who loves us is a great deal. The idea that I’m totally responsible for my own life is a bit scary. And I tried to believe, I really did. But the side of my brain that is responsible for logic and reason kept getting in the way. I don’t deny the possibility that there might be a force in the universe that started everything and holds it together - I can’t prove this one way or another. But anything more than that is just a myth. Third, contrary to what you might think, I do not think that my lack of belief gives me license to do anything I want. If I mess up, there is no invisible man in the sky to save me. So I don’t cheat, lie, do drugs, drive drunk, or anything like that.

240

[quote]makkun wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]makkun wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

I’m not suggesting that. On the same token if someone knows that they’re infected with HIV and willingly passes the virus on to another through some sort of sexual intercourse that person should be handed a jail sentence.[/quote]

Ahem, just saying, that’s not really a question at all. I’m pretty sure there have been convictions for consciously infecting someone with HIV. There have been in Germany, I’m pretty sure in Britain - I’d be surprised if not in the US. Why is this raised as hypothetical?

Makkun[/quote]

Tell me, how many people get prosecuted for this in the US? Do you know? I’ll give you a hint, very few.[/quote]

Don’t know about the US on this - it could be because it might happen a lot less than you think.

Makkun[/quote]

I think you make a good point here.

I’m sure most of the time before two homosexual men hook up for the night one says to the other, “by the way I have a raging case of HIV.” And the other looks at him and says, “I don’t care Bruce let’s just have some anal sex who cares about HIV.”

Yea, might happen, but probably not.

Since 67% of all new HIV positive cases are from homosexual men logic demands that something else is happening. The infected party is not telling the uninfected party.

Which makes more sense?