Wow.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
But…but he is a threat, right? The initiation of war is based only on those who we “think” will threaten and then actually use them…not those who threaten but we think won’t follow through with it? Wow. Thanks for letting me know how fucking insane this is.[/quote]

NK, I raq, and Iran were all named as the “Axis of Evil” by Bush in his SOTU speech a 3 or 4 years ago. NK is lead by a total shit-for-brains idiot, and there would be little, if any international support for an invasion of them.

Iran is on the threshhold of democracy, there had been pro democracy rallies held there many times prior to the President’s speech.

Iraq was already in violation of numerous UN resolutions, and whether you want to believe it, or not, had the entire world believing that they were in possession of WMD’s. Iraq was the logical first target for invasion. Not only because it was an easier sell, but it is also an easier fight.

FYI - Iran and Iraq are neighbors. It is now much easier to invade Iran - if necessary - from right next door.

NK won’t use their nukes because China is their protector. China is way to hooked on american cash to allow a dipshit from NK to screw up the sweet moolah machine. And we are using multi-latreral negotiations with them, and are making progress.

All three nations are threats to a stable international community.

Beyond the Ballot
Noam Chomsky

Khaleej Times, January 6, 2006
The US President Bush called last month?s Iraqi elections a “major milestone in the march to democracy.” They are indeed a milestone ? just not the kind that Washington would welcome. Disregarding the standard declarations of benign intent on the part of leaders, let?s review the history.

When Bush and Britain?s Prime Minister, Tony Blair, invaded Iraq, the pretext, insistently repeated, was a “single question”: Will Iraq eliminate its weapons of mass destruction?
Within a few months this “single question” was answered the wrong way. Then, very quickly, the real reason for the invasion became Bush?s “messianic mission” to bring democracy to Iraq and the Middle East.

Even apart from the timing, the democratisation bandwagon runs up against the fact that the United States has tried, in every possible way, to prevent elections in Iraq.

Last January?s elections came about because of mass nonviolent resistance, for which the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani became a symbol. (The violent insurgency is another creature altogether from this popular movement.)

Few competent observers would disagree with the editors of the Financial Times, who wrote last March that “the reason (the elections) took place was the insistence of the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, who vetoed three schemes by the US-led occupation authorities to shelve or dilute them.”

Elections, if taken seriously, mean you pay some attention to the will of the population. The crucial question for an invading army is: “Do they want us to be here?”

There is no lack of information about the answer. One important source is a poll for the British Ministry of Defence this past August, carried out by Iraqi university researchers and leaked to the British Press. It found that 82 per cent are “strongly opposed” to the presence of coalition troops and less than 1 per cent believe they are responsible for any improvement in security.

Analysts of the Brookings Institution in Washington report that in November, 80 per cent of Iraqis favoured “near-term US troop withdrawal.” Other sources generally concur. So the coalition forces should withdraw, as the population wants them to, instead of trying desperately to set up a client regime with military forces that they can control.

But Bush and Blair still refuse to set a timetable for withdrawal, limiting themselves to token withdrawals as their goals are achieved.

There?s a good reason why the United States cannot tolerate a sovereign, more or less democratic Iraq. The issue can scarcely be raised because it conflicts with firmly established doctrine: We?re supposed to believe that the United States would have invaded Iraq if it was an island in the Indian Ocean and its main export was pickles, not petroleum.

As is obvious to anyone not committed to the party line, taking control of Iraq will enormously strengthen US power over global energy resources, a crucial lever of world control. Suppose that Iraq were to become sovereign and democratic. Imagine the policies it would be likely to pursue. The Shia population in the South, where much of Iraq?s oil is, would have a predominant influence. They would prefer friendly relations with Shia Iran.

The relations are already close. The Badr brigade, the militia that mostly controls the south, was trained in Iran. The highly influential clerics also have long-standing relations with Iran, including Sistani, who grew up there. And the Shia-dominant interim government has already begun to establish economic and possibly military relations with Iran.

Furthermore, right across the border in Saudi Arabia is a substantial, bitter Shia population. Any move toward independence in Iraq is likely to increase efforts to gain a degree of autonomy and justice there, too. This also happens to be the region where most of Saudi Arabia?s oil is.

The outcome could be a loose Shia alliance comprising Iraq, Iran and the major oil regions of Saudi Arabia, independent of Washington and controlling large portions of the world?s oil reserves. It?s not unlikely that an independent bloc of this kind might follow Iran?s lead in developing major energy projects jointly with China and India.

Iran may give up on Western Europe, assuming that it will be unwilling to act independently of the United States. China, however, can?t be intimidated. That?s why the United States is so frightened by China.

China is already establishing relations with Iran ? and even with Saudi Arabia, both military and economic. There is an Asian energy security grid, based on China and Russia, but probably bringing in India, Korea and others. If Iran moves in that direction, it can become the lynchpin of that power grid.

Such developments, including a sovereign Iraq and possibly even major Saudi energy resources, would be the ultimate nightmare for Washington. Also, a labour movement is forming in Iraq, a very important one. Washington insists on keeping Saddam Hussein?s bitter anti-labour laws, but the labour movement continues its organising work despite them.

Their activists are being killed. Nobody knows by whom, maybe by insurgents, maybe by former Baathists, maybe by somebody else. But they?re persisting. They constitute one of the major democratising forces that have deep roots in Iraqi history, and that might revitalise, also much to the horror of the occupying forces.

One critical question is how Westerners will react. Will we be on the side of the occupying forces trying to prevent democracy and sovereignty? Or will we be on the side of the Iraqi people?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
NK, I raq, and Iran were all named as the “Axis of Evil” by Bush in his SOTU speech a 3 or 4 years ago. NK is lead by a total shit-for-brains idiot, and there would be little, if any international support for an invasion of them. [/quote]

That didn’t stop us before. Why now?

But…are you saying there is absolutely a much LESS possibility that they will use them on us than there was of Saddam sending a nuke overseas at America?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

But…but he is a threat, right? The initiation of war is based only on those who we “think” will threaten and then actually use them…not those who threaten but we think won’t follow through with it? Wow. Thanks for letting me know how fucking insane this is.[/quote]

A nation or government leader that threatens verbally but is not believed to follow through with it with force is, ipso facto, not a threat.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
NK, I raq, and Iran were all named as the “Axis of Evil” by Bush in his SOTU speech a 3 or 4 years ago. NK is lead by a total shit-for-brains idiot, and there would be little, if any international support for an invasion of them.

That didn’t stop us before. Why now?[/quote]

We had a rather large coalition and full congressional support. The fucking French and the greedy idiots in Germany and Russia were about the only world Powers that weren’t on board - if you wnat to call a bunch of nutless wonders a power in the first place.

Believe it or not - you are wrong here.

[quote]NK won’t use their nukes because China is their protector. China is way to hooked on american cash to allow a dipshit from NK to screw up the sweet moolah machine. And we are using multi-latreral negotiations with them, and are making progress.

But…are you saying there is absolutely a much LESS possibility that they will use them on us than there was of Saddam sending a nuke overseas at America?[/quote]

You are mixing up the argument. You do that a lot. No one ever said that Sadaam would invade the U.S. I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that shithead Il would be that stupid either.

The threat with Iraq was their sponsorship of terrorism, and their unwillingness to obey numerous sanctions against them. Little did we know that the fucking French, Germans and Russians were stroking Sadaam’s cock the whole time - that’s a whole other subject.

NK’s danger is their willingness to sell nukes to anyone - including terrorists that have enough money to pony up.

The threat that each poses is different, but equally detrimental, and pro-terrorist.

[quote]danweltmann wrote:
Beyond the Ballot
Noam Chomsky[/quote]

Chomsky - a gifted linguist - has no currency on foreign policy. No serious thinker buys his garbage. The man has flirted with Holocaust denial and somehow cashes his monthly paycheck in good conscience, all the while railing against the system that affords him that comfortable, privileged lifestyle, and his luxury as an academic is provided by the largesse of the military-industrial complex Chomsky claims to the be the enemy of (go find out where MIT gets its money).

Any paper willing to print Chomsky may be good for fishwrap, but little else. The man has also been sympathetic to the Khmer Rouge and described the American war in Afghanistan as a genocide - and for an lauded “intellectual” powerhouse, his world view is so simplistic (West=oppressors, everyone else=oppressed, with no accounting for anything else) as to defy description.

Nothing more than an aging armchair radical who no one takes seriously. He is an empty voice on the fringe, kept company by the few airheads that buy his crap - for example, you, Dan.

You make interesting points, here’s my take on them:

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
But…but he is a threat, right? The initiation of war is based only on those who we “think” will threaten and then actually use them…not those who threaten but we think won’t follow through with it? Wow. Thanks for letting me know how fucking insane this is.

NK, I raq, and Iran were all named as the “Axis of Evil” by Bush in his SOTU speech a 3 or 4 years ago. NK is lead by a total shit-for-brains idiot, and there would be little, if any international support for an invasion of them.[/quote]
This Axis of Evil, while evil, is not particularly so, given that most brutal dictators in the last half century have been on the American payroll. What makes these countries different is their independent, non-aligned policies, which makes them a bad example to others who might want to break out of the clutches of American colonialism, and so they must be put down.

It’s the same reasoning that caused American aggression against Vietnam, Nicaragua, Cuba. It wasn’t Soviet allies (like Poland, a worthier prize than Vietnam) that got attacked, but non-aligned ones. The three examples above became Soviet allies as a result of American pressure, not before it.

I agree, time and diplomacy could achieve more, though they are much closer to achieving a nuclear capability than Iraq.

Saddam’s empty boasts convinced no one that they were in possession of WMD’s. In the US, public opinion was shaped by the neocon propaganda machine, it’s not like your average TV viewer spends a lot of time poring over Saddam’s speeches.

It is now much more difficult, because a large part of the US military is tied down in Iraq. As for being next door, they were already there with bases in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia.

China now has the largest foreign currency reserves of US dollars, thanks to US deficit spending over the war in Iraq; they’ve been practically bankrolling it by buying treasury bills, government bonds, etc. If China chooses to sell their currency reserves, they’d cause the US dollar to collapse literally overnight. They’d be hurting, but they could do it.

The talks have not made progress in years, partly due to the NK leader, who is indeed a dipshit, and partly due to American obstructionism.

Consider this: suppose the area solves its problems, North and South Korea get along, China gives up on Taiwan, etc. Why would anybody need American bases around? It is very much against American interests to resolve the NK issue, since they might lose their bases right on China’s doorstep.

[quote]All three nations are threats to a stable international community.
[/quote]

When’s the last time that Iran or NK attacked anybody? As far as a stable international community goes, consider the 17 invasions that the US undertook in Central America in the 20th century.

The international community would be far more stable if the US paid attention to it wishes, as opposed to vetoing UN resolutions (the US is number one by far in that respect, followed by the UK) and acting unilaterally.

Here’s an interesting quote from Madeleine Albright, US ambassador to the UN: “We will act multilaterally if we can, unilaterally if we have to.” In plain English that means we’ll use the UN if we can, ignore it if we have to. She was talking about the use of force specifically.
When rogue states do what they wish (with all the proper excuses, of course) the international community brakes down.

That is what happened to The League of Nations in the 1930’s and like then, in the long term, appeasement doesn’t work.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You are mixing up the argument. You do that a lot. No one ever said that Sadaam would invade the U.S. I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that shithead Il would be that stupid either.

The threat with Iraq was their sponsorship of terrorism, and their unwillingness to obey numerous sanctions against them. Little did we know that the fucking French, Germans and Russians were stroking Sadaam’s cock the whole time - that’s a whole other subject.

NK’s danger is their willingness to sell nukes to anyone - including terrorists that have enough money to pony up.

The threat that each poses is different, but equally detrimental, and pro-terrorist.

[/quote]

So, with that in mind and the full understanding that we were not at risk of a direct hit from Saddam, why did we have to go in soon after 9/11? Why not seperate the issue completely from that tragedy? Why didn’t we go in before 9/11? Why was there no discussion of an immediate attack any time on 9/10? Why do many think that the tragedy of 9/11 and the action against Saddam are linked at all? Weren’t we looking for Bin Laden? This was a completely seperate issue?

[quote]doogie wrote:
1/14/1991 Just before the outbreak of war [in 1991] Iraq…
[/quote]

I reread my post to make sure, and indeed I did say read the 9/11 commission’s report. I didn’t say read Sam Pender’s (author of the now really hilariously titled Iraq’s smoking gun) PRE-BUSH timeline/list of Iraq’s Ties To Al Queda cut and pasted from Freerepublic.

I guess I foward my invitation to you “doogie” to read the report as well.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:

But…but he is a threat, right? The initiation of war is based only on those who we “think” will threaten and then actually use them…not those who threaten but we think won’t follow through with it? Wow. Thanks for letting me know how fucking insane this is.

A nation or government leader that threatens verbally but is not believed to follow through with it with force is, ipso facto, not a threat.[/quote]

My point was, how do we know what we “think” is going to be what happens? If he is a threat, he is a threat. Why was Iraq an issue that needed to be taken care of immediately, but the greater power of them all we are willing to just relax around because we “think” he won’t do it?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
danweltmann wrote:
Beyond the Ballot
Noam Chomsky

Chomsky - a gifted linguist - has no currency on foreign policy. No serious thinker buys his garbage. The man has flirted with Holocaust denial and somehow cashes his monthly paycheck in good conscience, all the while railing against the system that affords him that comfortable, privileged lifestyle, and his luxury as an academic is provided by the largesse of the military-industrial complex Chomsky claims to the be the enemy of (go find out where MIT gets its money).[/quote]

His flirtation with Holocaust denial is pure fabrication. What he did was support the right to free speech of a Holocaust denier, while explicitly not supporting his views. As to who pays him, that has no relevance to the accuracy of his views. In fact, that is one of the strong points of academia, being able to say things and not lose one’s job over it.

[quote]Any paper willing to print Chomsky may be good for fishwrap, but little else. The man has also been sympathetic to the Khmer Rouge and described the American war in Afghanistan as a genocide - and for an lauded “intellectual” powerhouse, his world view is so simplistic (West=oppressors, everyone else=oppressed, with no accounting for anything else) as to defy description.

[/quote]
He’s been interviewed by almost every major media in the West, the main exception being the American main stream. That is more of a comment on the quality of journalism in the US than on him.

His sympathy for the Khmer Rouge is another fabrication, based on the fact that he once said that accounts of their mass killings have been inflated for propaganda purposes. His sources were reliable, and he never defended the attrocities of the Khmer Rouge.
The war in Afghanistan has indeed been extremely destructive, and continues to be so.

His view is not simplistic, I wonder how much you’ve read of him. His take is that as a tax paying American, since his taxes pay for wars, it is his responsibility to criticize his countrt’s policies. I’ve read his stuff, and he does criticize other countries plenty, such as the North Korean leader, the PLO, Osama and terrorism in general, etc.; it’s just that his focus is his own country.

The man went to anti-war rallies in the '60, repeatedly got beaten by police and did time in jail. Not exactly “armchair radical.”
He’s recently been voted the world’s top intellectual out of 100 choices by an internet poll; thousands took part in the poll, so he’s not exactly “an empty voice on the fringe”. He’s the most quoted man alive. His books are part of university curriculum in a number of countries.

Look, I’ve read a shitload of stuff on both sides, from Chomsky to Ayn Rand, and what struck me the most about him is how well documented his claims are. Not some airy declarations of benign intent, but hard facts, polls, unclassified documents; the type of primary source material that historians take seriously.

A lot of the criticism you offer of him I’ve seen too, except that it’s not true. I know that for the simple reason that I’ve read his books, and I can see just how out of context those criticisms are.

As an exercise, if you see something said about him, try to find the original quote (and its context) and notice what sources he bases his opinions on. Then compare with the level of argument and documentation of his oponents. It might be quite enlightening.

Just out of curiousity, and I don’t mean this as an attack, where did you get your views on him?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
So, with that in mind and the full understanding that we were not at risk of a direct hit from Saddam, why did we have to go in soon after 9/11? Why not seperate the issue completely from that tragedy? Why didn’t we go in before 9/11? Why was there no discussion of an immediate attack any time on 9/10? Why do many think that the tragedy of 9/11 and the action against Saddam are linked at all? Weren’t we looking for Bin Laden? This was a completely seperate issue?[/quote]

Because Sadaam’s regime was a state sponsor of terrorism. This is a Gobal War On Terror. There was indeed quite a bit of talk about what to do wrt Sadaam, as well as some acrual military action taken against Iraq. Surely you have read some of the many things that the now dove-filled Democrats were saying about Sadaam, his WMD’s, and his refusal to comply with umpteen UN resolutions.

Bush was in office less than a year before 9/11 - I think he acted rather swiftly given the extra-ordinary circumstances he was faced with.

But to answer your question - I don’t think Sadaam was any less a threat with the Clinton Admin than he was with G-Dub’s. Bush just did something about it, as opposed to Clintons unwillingness to do shit to upset the economy.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
So, with that in mind and the full understanding that we were not at risk of a direct hit from Saddam, why did we have to go in soon after 9/11? Why not seperate the issue completely from that tragedy? Why didn’t we go in before 9/11? Why was there no discussion of an immediate attack any time on 9/10? Why do many think that the tragedy of 9/11 and the action against Saddam are linked at all? Weren’t we looking for Bin Laden? This was a completely seperate issue?

Because Sadaam’s regime was a state sponsor of terrorism. This is a Gobal War On Terror. There was indeed quite a bit of talk about what to do wrt Sadaam, as well as some acrual military action taken against Iraq. Surely you have read some of the many things that the now dove-filled Democrats were saying about Sadaam, his WMD’s, and his refusal to comply with umpteen UN resolutions.

Bush was in office less than a year before 9/11 - I think he acted rather swiftly given the extra-ordinary circumstances he was faced with.

But to answer your question - I don’t think Sadaam was any less a threat with the Clinton Admin than he was with G-Dub’s. Bush just did something about it, as opposed to Clintons unwillingness to do shit to upset the economy.

[/quote]

…and I think it is pretty clear to anyone willing to see it that 9/11 gave Bush the opportunity to coax the majority of the people in this country into immediately allowing military action even though many were confused as to exactly what for. I do believe it is less than truthful to pretend as if 9/11 had not happened that we would have gone in when we did and how we did with no plan for “nation building” ready beforehand.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
We had a rather large coalition and full congressional support. The fucking French and the greedy idiots in Germany and Russia were about the only world Powers that weren’t on board - if you wnat to call a bunch of nutless wonders a power in the first place.

The threat with Iraq was their sponsorship of terrorism, and their unwillingness to obey numerous sanctions against them. Little did we know that the fucking French, Germans and Russians were stroking Sadaam’s cock the whole time - that’s a whole other subject.

[/quote]
Please stop these pointless insults and try to make up something intelligent, like an argument.

Regarding the “coalition of the willing”:

The coalition turned out to consist mostly of jewels like: Afghanistan, Mikronesia,Usbekistan , Oman, Tonga or Lettland etc.
Each of my friends from across Europe, practically everyone I knew ,(except Poland) thought it was a bad joke. It’s one of America’s most shameful foreign political actions. Don’t get me wrong here, I like the US a lot, but that was so sad.

In many of these “willing” countries (Spain, Italy, Turkey…) the people were against it, but the government lacked the balls to oppose almighty America.

Some countries even denied being part of it!
Some countries were simply made offers they couldn’t refuse (Nicaragua for example)
Side remark: Germany helps you a friggin’ lot on your GWOT dammit, logistically and personally. Probably even more than anyone on this list, except Great Britain with Bush’s-ass-eater-in-chief Blair, of course. It’s so ungrateful to flame on them.

Besides: Germany did not want this war, our people were against is, our President had the balls to oppose your President. This has NOTHING to do with greed. To ignore that fact and to claim otherwise is ignorant.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

But…but he is a threat, right? The initiation of war is based only on those who we “think” will threaten and then actually use them…not those who threaten but we think won’t follow through with it? Wow. Thanks for letting me know how fucking insane this is.[/quote]

Seriously?

Who has Korea attacked? Who has Saddam attacked? Who has Kim Il used chemical weapons on in the past? Who has Saddam? Who has nukes, and who is trying to get nukes?

There is a difference here. And each situation needs to be treated differently, not with some simpleton idea of politics. And sorry but what you state is a simpleton idea of politics.

Saddam is different then Kim Il Jong, who is different then Qaddafi, who is different then Ahmadinejad. None of these people should be treated exactly the same way, and none of their countries should be treated the exact same way.

If you were to help a 120 pound, 14 year old who wanted to bulk up for football, would you give him the exact same diet you eat when bulking? I don’t think so. Yet you are expecting such simplicity with dangerous world leaders.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Blah blah blah blah.[/quote]

Look Stinkyfarter, you are not debating here. You have not been debating me.

I see your game and am not going to play it. You are a propagandist who is going to twist anything said into something else through your lies and bullshit peppered with little tiny nuggets of truth.

Anyone who is not capable of rational thought will fall for your ploy here, it is actually quite effective.

If you want a true debate, actually discuss what was really said, and posted, and not the farce you created.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
danweltmann wrote:
Beyond the Ballot
Noam Chomsky

Chomsky - a gifted linguist - has no currency on foreign policy. No serious thinker buys his garbage. The man has flirted with Holocaust denial and somehow cashes his monthly paycheck in good conscience, all the while railing against the system that affords him that comfortable, privileged lifestyle, and his luxury as an academic is provided by the largesse of the military-industrial complex Chomsky claims to the be the enemy of (go find out where MIT gets its money).

Any paper willing to print Chomsky may be good for fishwrap, but little else. The man has also been sympathetic to the Khmer Rouge and described the American war in Afghanistan as a genocide - and for an lauded “intellectual” powerhouse, his world view is so simplistic (West=oppressors, everyone else=oppressed, with no accounting for anything else) as to defy description.

Nothing more than an aging armchair radical who no one takes seriously. He is an empty voice on the fringe, kept company by the few airheads that buy his crap - for example, you, Dan.[/quote]

Chomsky is a genius with linguistics. He in fact has a strong following of supporters because of his genius.

I have read some of what he has wrote and found that genius.

By the way his genius is being able to take a load of shit and convince people it is rose petals. His skills at linguistics are used extensively for his goal of sounding more intelligent then he truly is.

I love the fact that he says he is both a socialist and an anarchist.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

So, with that in mind and the full understanding that we were not at risk of a direct hit from Saddam, why did we have to go in soon after 9/11? [/quote]

Your definition of soon could be questioned, but to answer this was because of political clout. Bush did not have the political clout before 911, but he did after. He spent that political clout on the Iraq conflict. No other time could it have been as acceptable as then.

Another issue is that the idea of the world changed after 911. The idea that dangerous men in very powerful positions could just be held in place was no longer to be believed.

The war was on terror, and Saddam was a supporter of terror.

Again political clout.

Actually I am fairly certain that they were discussed as possibilities often before 9/11/2001. About the specific day before, I don’t have any itinerary of what discussions they had on that day.

Partly because the media pushed the idea, and Bush didn’t go out and correct the media. (Bush seems to be unable to speak up as often as he should.) But at the same time, the idea was benefiting him. Then there were the links between Al-Qaeda and Iraq. Just nothing found about Iraq and 911. (Officially.)

We can only do one thing at a time? We are incapable of multitasking? Does this mean we need to shut down the government until Osama is found? Does this also mean we shouldn’t look for Zarqawi too?

Here is the big point. Just because they may not have been the exact same issue does not mean one issue was bad, and one issue was good. You cannot just assume taking out Saddam was bad just because he was not linked to 911. Don’t forget Dennis Rader had nothing to do with 911. Should we let him out too?

[quote]The Mage wrote:
Here is the big point. Just because they may not have been the exact same issue does not mean one issue was bad, and one issue was good. You cannot just assume taking out Saddam was bad just because he was not linked to 911. Don’t forget Dennis Rader had nothing to do with 911. Should we let him out too?
[/quote]

Who said I thought taking out Saddam was bad? I know I was asking basic questions, but you should know by now that this isn’t how I think and those questions lead us to this post. You answered it well and I thank you for it. You were honest about it instead of giving useless talking points as an answer and much of what you wrote I actually agree with. What I disagree with is HOW some of that “political clout” was spent, not necessarily what it was spent on. I feel that the American people were worked up into this and this is why the president’s approval rating is down and why many more than 2 or 3 years ago are now tired of Iraq…even though we are now in this for years and years to come. Emotions got us into this when it should have been seperated from the tragedy enough to avoid that type of mindset. This does allow me ask questions like, how much of a benefit has this war (conducted the way it was) created over having waited until a much beter plan of propoganda, relief, nation building and even troop strength was established? Do I feel we rushed in? I sure as hell do, and as you wrote, we went in at a time that Bush felt he had the political clout and he felt he had to make it in before that diminished. Do you see the issues many have now? Without political cheerleading, do you get what has many upset?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…and I think it is pretty clear to anyone willing to see it that 9/11 gave Bush the opportunity to coax the majority of the people in this country into immediately allowing military action even though many were confused as to exactly what for. I do believe it is less than truthful to pretend as if 9/11 had not happened that we would have gone in when we did and how we did with no plan for “nation building” ready beforehand.[/quote]

No one is denying that 9/11 was the catalyst for a lot of shit. The confusion belonged only to those that refused to pay any fucking attention.

Bush was not even in office 9 months when we were attacked. I think that is a forgotten fact with those that can only see Iraq. I don’t know how much more clearly, or how many more times I can say it: Iraq is only a part of the GWOT, and Bush waited until we had Afghanistan under control before setting his sights on the next part of the GWOT.

You seem to think that Bush went to war with Iraq immediately after taking office when in fact he was halfway through his first term.