[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
I fear that we are being led down a path towards another World War.
[/quote]
I do not wish to quarrel with you any further. I agree with only your last statement. I see the world…this union…the way it is. Sophomoric writing style? Ouch. If you say so lad.
Cheers
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
There’s nothing glorious about war, and there’s nothing that is truly black and white. Anybody who glorifies death and destruction as “manly” needs to get their head out of their ass.
I find it truly ironic that those in our government who are willing to go to war on a whim are the same ones who have never worn a uniform or fought in war in their lives.[/quote]
I think you’re missing the point. It’s not that the war itself was either good or manly- it’s that the reaction of the average people in this country was VERY manly. They knew what had to be done, and I’ll be damned if millions of them didn’t volunteer to go right onto Iwo Jima and the shores of Normandy and risk their lives for the rest of the world.
And we have gone to war on many whims- the Mexican War, the Spanish American War, Vietnam… but WWII was far from a “whim.” It was a concerted effort by an expanding superpower to destroy our navy and force us to sue for peace on their terms under the threat of destruction. All the while, we were faced with a growing evil empire in the east with Germany.
That’s not a whim… that’s some comic book shit where there’s no other way to do it. And believe me, if there was another way to do it, Eisenhower would have thought of it.
[/quote]
Best post so far on the thread
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Good points. The people in this country were much different than they are now. That whole Depression/WW2 generation was about sacrifice. Too bad it was followed up by the Baby Boomers, the worst generation.
[/quote]
YOU are the one that just said there was nothing manly about going to war, and saying that people who want to shouldn’t- now you’re criticizing the generation that literally did everything in their power to stop a war?
I am confused.
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
War is never a good thing, and it is never a truly “good vs. evil” battle, no matter what the media wants you to believe.
[/quote]
And WWII was. How the Japanese and the Nazis, with the ridiculous amount of atrocities committed, cannot be considered “evil,” is beyond me.
I have been reading about the Japanese because of the show “The Pacific,” and all it takes is a couple of pictures from the rape of Nanking to show you how far the mercy of the Japanese Empire extended.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Good points. Some people say cucumbers are better pickled
[/quote]
YOU are the one that just said there was nothing manly about going to war, and saying that people who want to shouldn’t- now you’re criticizing the generation that literally did everything in their power to stop a war?
I am confused.[/quote]
Me too. Wait what about Vietnam? note sarcasm
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
War is never a good thing, and it is never a truly “good vs. evil” battle, no matter what the media wants you to believe.
[/quote]
And WWII was. How the Japanese and the Nazis, with the ridiculous amount of atrocities committed, cannot be considered “evil,” is beyond me.
I have been reading about the Japanese because of the show “The Pacific,” and all it takes is a couple of pictures from the rape of Nanking to show you how far the mercy of the Japanese Empire extended. [/quote]
You are on a roll my good man!
The Japanese had a very similar setup to the Germans in the form of deadly human experimentation. Unit 731
We were truly fighting the forces of evil. We were fighting for a purpose.
[quote]Jack Urboady wrote:
LOL trust a Kraut to come out with this pish.
[/quote]
I used to live in Germany and I don’t know how many times I heard a variation on this refrain:
“The Nazis were awful mass murderers and psychos, but since the Americans beat them, they are worse.”
This would be followed up with some muttering about how these same people didn’t have anything to do with the Third Reich and, it seems, were in the restroom the whole time.
– jj
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
A blemish on an otherwise impressive presidency. Missouri’s own Harry Truman. Read the McCullough biography. He was a truly extra-ordinary man.[/quote]
Blemish? Blemish my ass. Ten times that number would have died if we had to invade the Japanese mainland, probably more.
And with that psychotic, cultish culture at the time, none of them would have surrendered, and we would have had to butcher them all.
I say good for Truman. He saved more lives than he ended, including probably the life of my grandfather, who fought in the Pacific.
You don’t want to get nuked, don’t go starting wars.[/quote]
Y’all should look up Paul Fussell’s piece “Thank God For The Atom Bomb”. He was there, fought hard and went on to college to become a very well respected scholar. He makes the very pungent point about most revisionists who take Truman and the decision to drop the bomb to task: They weren’t anywhere near the war and the people that were actually there come from classes that have almost no chance of getting their views into public discourse. He was unique in being able to give a very succinct view on the matter.
Well worth a read indeed.
– jj
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
War is never a good thing, and it is never a truly “good vs. evil” battle, no matter what the media wants you to believe.
[/quote]
And WWII was. How the Japanese and the Nazis, with the ridiculous amount of atrocities committed, cannot be considered “evil,” is beyond me.
I have been reading about the Japanese because of the show “The Pacific,” and all it takes is a couple of pictures from the rape of Nanking to show you how far the mercy of the Japanese Empire extended. [/quote]
There will be a movie coming out about a German nazi who saved thousands of Chinese at the rape of Nanking.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
War is never a good thing, and it is never a truly “good vs. evil” battle, no matter what the media wants you to believe.
[/quote]
And WWII was. How the Japanese and the Nazis, with the ridiculous amount of atrocities committed, cannot be considered “evil,” is beyond me.
I have been reading about the Japanese because of the show “The Pacific,” and all it takes is a couple of pictures from the rape of Nanking to show you how far the mercy of the Japanese Empire extended. [/quote]
There will be a movie coming out about a German nazi who saved thousands of Chinese at the rape of Nanking.
[/quote]
Does that mean it is a true story or a movie?
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
War is never a good thing, and it is never a truly “good vs. evil” battle, no matter what the media wants you to believe.
[/quote]
And WWII was. How the Japanese and the Nazis, with the ridiculous amount of atrocities committed, cannot be considered “evil,” is beyond me.
I have been reading about the Japanese because of the show “The Pacific,” and all it takes is a couple of pictures from the rape of Nanking to show you how far the mercy of the Japanese Empire extended. [/quote]
There will be a movie coming out about a German nazi who saved thousands of Chinese at the rape of Nanking.
[/quote]
Does that mean it is a true story or a movie?[/quote]
He actually did that:
John Rabe, the Oskar Schindler of China
The Nazi Leader of Nanking who Saved Over 200,000 People
Apr 3, 2009 Michael Streich
A newly released German film recounts the heroic exploits of John Rabe as the Japanese occupied Nanking in China, popularizing a forgotten part of history.
In the annals of twentieth century genocide and atrocities, heroes emerged that put their own lives on the line to save others. Men like Raoul Wallenberg and Oskar Schindler are well known for their courageous attempts in saving Jews. The newly released German film on the war-time activities of John Rabe in China during the infamous â??Rape of Nankingâ?? offers yet another portrait of selfless courage, yet this time the hero was the leader of the Nanking Nazi organization.
John Rabe in China
At the time Japanese forces entered Nanking in 1937, Rabe had been in China for thirty years as the chief manager of Siemens. Born in Hamburg in 1882, Rabe had traveled to Africa before settling in China. Revered in China as â??the living Buddha of Nanking,â?? Rabe was also, however, the leader of the Nanking Nazi organization. In many ways, this helped him to eventually save the lives of over 200,000 Chinese civililians that had taken shelter in his â??International Safety Zone.â??
As a Nazi and a citizen of Japanâ??s ally, Rabe was respected by the Japanese military and suffered no indignities, unlike those of other western nationalities like the Americans. According to his diary entries, just the flash of his swastika armband was often enough to stop acts of cruelty taking place by small groups of marauding soldiers. Writing in the German news magazine Spiegel, Lars-Olav Beier recounts how Rabeâ??s German-speaking chauffeur was killed by Japanese soldiers. Bargaining with a Japanese officer, Rabe demanded twenty men, â??who had already been sentenced to deathâ?¦â?? thereby saving twenty lives.
Rabeâ??s meticulous diary entries remained unknown until Historian Iris Chang, author of the monumental Rape of Nanking, found them with Rabeâ??s grandchildren in Germany. These writings recount the chilling days of late 1937 when a forgotten holocaust began in China, and Rabeâ??s tireless role in trying to save as many civilians as possible.
[quote]dmaddox wrote:
Sorry to be a downer, but it is enevitable that another World War will come about. This time the whole world will be involved, not just Europe, and Asia.[/quote]
This is interesting, where will the line of demarcation be drawn? I assume there will be poles towards which lesser entities will be drawn. Or will it be a dog-eat-dog war?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Good points. The people in this country were much different than they are now. That whole Depression/WW2 generation was about sacrifice. Too bad it was followed up by the Baby Boomers, the worst generation.
[/quote]
YOU are the one that just said there was nothing manly about going to war, and saying that people who want to shouldn’t- now you’re criticizing the generation that literally did everything in their power to stop a war?
I am confused.[/quote]
Read what I said, I said “There is nothing glorious about going to war”. And there isn’t. I don’t call seeing your buddies getting shot at and killed, glorious do you? Being a man means doing what needs to be done and not complaining about it.
As far the baby boomers go, look at the country around you and the complete fucking mess it is today. All of our ridiculous policies, including fiscal and especially our foreign policy, (YES that includes the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) are a result of this police the world and spend, spend, spend mentality that baby boomers have foisted onto us. Good example of this, Dick Cheney. He was a draft dodger during Vietnam but was one of the biggest architects and pushers of the Iraq War.
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
Good points. The people in this country were much different than they are now. That whole Depression/WW2 generation was about sacrifice. Too bad it was followed up by the Baby Boomers, the worst generation.
[/quote]
YOU are the one that just said there was nothing manly about going to war, and saying that people who want to shouldn’t- now you’re criticizing the generation that literally did everything in their power to stop a war?
I am confused.[/quote]
Read what I said, I said “There is nothing glorious about going to war”. And there isn’t. I don’t call seeing your buddies getting shot at and killed, glorious do you? Being a man means doing what needs to be done and not complaining about it.
As far the baby boomers go, look at the country around you and the complete fucking mess it is today. All of our ridiculous policies, including fiscal and especially our foreign policy, (YES that includes the Iraq and Afghanistan wars) are a result of this police the world and spend, spend, spend mentality that baby boomers have foisted onto us. Good example of this, Dick Cheney. He was a draft dodger during Vietnam but was one of the biggest architects and pushers of the Iraq War.[/quote]
and the real president of the United States of America during the Bush reign. lol
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]Charlemagne wrote:
War is never a good thing, and it is never a truly “good vs. evil” battle, no matter what the media wants you to believe.
[/quote]
And WWII was. How the Japanese and the Nazis, with the ridiculous amount of atrocities committed, cannot be considered “evil,” is beyond me.
I have been reading about the Japanese because of the show “The Pacific,” and all it takes is a couple of pictures from the rape of Nanking to show you how far the mercy of the Japanese Empire extended. [/quote]
Here’s one for you. How about “Nazi Germany vs. Stalin’s USSR”. Would you consider that “good vs. evil”? Both sides committed horrible atrocities and both sides were led by psychopathic mass murderers.
You could make a point that essentially the entire second world war was fought on the steppes of Russia and Eastern and central Europe. The numbers of people killed, men, material and area involved is bigger than the rest of the 2nd world war put together.
Compared to the Eastern Front, the Western front was a sideshow. When the allies did get involved in the war big time, the Germans and Soviets had been fighting in a cataclysmic struggle for over 3 years. The Germans were nowhere near the fighting force they had been in 1940-1.
That may be why many Americans glorify the 2nd World War so much. America didn’t experience the absolute devastation and death that all of Europe did. The entire European continent was in ruins, and Western civilization was shaken to its core. America on the other hand had been able to build its way out of the Great Depression and came out as the only superpower that was essentially unscathed. That also may be why, even to this day, that many Europeans abhor war much more than most Americans do.
And one more thing. I made the point that war is never truly “good vs. evil”. Civilians are always the innocent victims of war but in World War 2 this was multiplied beyond what it had been in any other war. Civilian deaths far outnumbered military deaths in World War 2. There were millions of innocent German and Japanese civilian deaths (Firebombing in Dresden and Tokyo) as there were millions of innocent civilian deaths in the USSR, Allied Europe and China. Things are never black and white.
The thing about WWII that always amazed me was how the Germans managed to lose.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
The thing about WWII that always amazed me was how the Germans managed to lose.[/quote]
Coming from an Englishman that speaks loudly. You would know that your country was on the brink of being controled by German Troops. Had Hitler consentrated on you guys first and then Russia we all might be speaking German.
[quote]Fallen wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I don’t think anyone takes WWII as a joke, but more of the OP just saying, “Discuss WWII.”
[/quote]
We can’t forget that this was also the war in which America flashed its colossal nuclear penis to the world by bukkake’ing Hiroshima and Nagasaki. [/quote]
You gotta be kidding me right?