why we lost vietnam and what it means

Off Topic
21

Avoids Roids, you are exactly the type of person I am talking about. You have nothing to say. You resort to personal attacks. Let me refresh your memory about one thing: YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME. Why don’t you actually respond to the facts, such as our submission of forged documents? Let me reiterate, you know nothing about me, my history in the military, or my family’s history. It’s so ironic to me that someone can be so full of shit that they claim it’s all about our troops, but if they don’t realize they’re talking to a member of the military they will insult them to death about their opinions.

Whiskey you are exactly the type of person I am talking about. Let me explain; you say: “Do you acknowledge the fact every town we go into, people are happy we are there?” you are UNINFORMED. Every town is NOT happy we are there. this is what I am talking about, you watch CNN and you think you know the situation. Remember that scene you saw witht he people dancing in the street on CNN? This is what a reporter saw a day later when he wasn’t with troops with guns:

“Traveling unescorted into Safwan today, I got a far different picture. Rather than affection and appreciation, I saw a lot of hostility toward the coalition forces, the United States and President Bush. Some were even directed towards the media. (It was the first time I heard somebody refer to me as a “Satan.”) In speaking with them, the newly-liberated Iraqis ask the same questions that seem to nag many outside Iraq. Why are you here in this country? When are you going to get out?”

Sounds like they’re happy we’re there huh? I’m not saying that this means we sholdn’t be there, or we should. It just seems to me you’re making your decision on that when you aren’t well informed.

Here’s my proof about the lies:

Forged Documents about WMD in Iraq: My proof for this is that after the inspections team and the IAEA verified they were FORGED, we ADMITTED IT!

Source of Ricin in UK: Because the UK intelligence, the one’s the found the ricin and its source, says we were wrong.

Dual-Use Materials: Because the IAEA verified our claims were untrue.

Gasing of his own people: Because we ADMITTED we gave Saddam the gas he used, and we oversaw his use of it to squash a rebellion. When he was no longer useful to us, we recanted that information.

See the thing is that I DO acknowledge some good things could come our of this for the Iraqi people. I acknowledge that this is a complicated issue. There is no “right” or “wrong” answer. I’m just frustrated because other people don’t seem to fully appreciate the complexity of this situation. What is your response to the administration’s lies? Some of which they have admitted to? I don’t believe Saddam’s propaganda machine in the least, but why is it ok for us to use FORGED DOCUMENTS? I am a skeptical person, seeing that we used forged documents and lies makes me doubt the existance of real evidence. what do you think?

22

To say that oil is not a factor in this war is what’s preposterous. The argument that we don’t get much oil from Iraq (we get it from Saudi Arabia, Canada and Russia) is ridiculous. That’s pretty much the point, we don’t get any from Iraq and we want to. We can’t allow Saddam to put his oil on the market now, but he would use the money to buy WMD. Once that oil is on the market, it will drive prices down for everyone, including us, regardless of who we buy it from. It costs 1/3 of the cost to get and process oil in Iraq than it does in the US, Canada or Russia. Anyone who says Iraq’s oil isn’t an issue in this war does not understand the very basics of the world economy. If Oil production in Iraq were increased it would save us hundreds of billions of dollars a year, and add a percentage point or two to our GDP. Ask your conservative friends that study economics, they’ll verify this information. I am not claiming this is a reason for not going to war, but any educated person must acknowledge this IS a factor. If it weren’t, we would be in North Korea right now.

23

ThaRealest, you still haven’t proven shit about your radical conspiracy theories. Show me a reliable source (i.e. definitely not you, antiwar.com, etc.) that proves these radical ideas of yours and then I’ll believe you.

As for the “If it weren’t, we would be in North Korea right now.” The reason we’re not in North Korea right now is because Kim Jong Il is desperate for attention. Let me give you an analogy that we can all understand: in the gym that you go to theres two guys, one guy is 150 lbs. soaking wet and is constantly talking about his steroid use and how he can get any steroid he wants. The other guy is a puffy, water-logged beast that completely denies the use of steroids even though he has pimples all over his face and back and has nipples that are definitely the results of gynecomastia. Now, only one of these guys is actually on steroids. Which one, based on the information provided, would you say is juicing. Just give me your response to that, don’t go huffing and puffing about how “you can’t make an analogy between steroids and war, its just stupid.” Because that is what an analogy is It is a similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar.

Next, for all of you in defense of Iraq and the regime in charge of Iraq right now: I am willing to pay the plane ticket for each and every one of you to fly over to Iraq and start a new life there. If living in the USA is sooooo horrible, then maybe you’ll find yourselves happier living among the very people you defend in your anti-American posts here.

The thing that makes me sick about some of the people in this country is that they get so aroused at the talk of more civic rights and the ability to do this and that and everything in between. However, I never seem to hear any talk about civic responsibilities except for the constant bitching about the Patriot Acts. I live in Buffalo, NY and if you actually watch the news you’d know that recently they arrested 6 suspected terrorists in Lackawanna, a suburb of Buffalo. Although one of the suspected terrorists claims innocence the other 5 have recently plead guilty to the charges laid against them. Now, if it wasn’t for the Patriot Acts these guys would’ve been able to do whatever the hell that wanted to without the government being able to do anything but watch. If we keep looking for a smoking gun then we’re gonna find ourselves looking right in front of a smoking city.

24 
 Realest, shut up.
25

“If you agree with the war, at least step up and acknowledge that you are informed of this information and that you still believe in an administration that openly lies to you.”

Realest, I’m both informed AND reject your bullshit propoganda. Until you prove a thing you’re claiming, YOU’RE the misinformed one, so willing to believe whatever you’re fed that you’re unable to grasp what is reality. You cannot honestly believe all the bullshit you’re spewing. Cite some credible sources, give us proven facts, hell, just debate the issue at hand with some semblance of logic and reasoning, and we’ll have somewhere to start. Until that time, you and your “argument” are a joke.

26

To Realest,
Your basic knowledge and interpretation of the the supply vs demand curve is correct, however you are still quite misguided. After this conflict is over Iraq will not become the USA’s personal oil reserve, we would lose all credability in the middle east if this occured. Iraq will merely be incorporated into OPEAC. The trade embargo that will be lifted on Iraqi oil will not significantly lower oil prices throughout the world since OPEAC will still control and regulate the amount of oil shipped out of the middle east and refined there. It will merely give the Arab states another resource for oil, which is exactly why you are hearing little to no protest from Arab governments over this war.
I am terribly sorry if the truth hurts.

27

“Avoids Roids, you are exactly the type of person I am talking about.”

And proud of it son!

28

I am not giving you “conspiracy” theories. These facts were reported on every major media outlet, and we admitted to it.

Forged Documents: Go into you browser, and type in “US forged documents iraq.” You will find several sources. Here’s one:
“The Desert Sun | Palm Springs and Coachella Valley news”
or another:
“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9011-2003Mar22.html”

Excerpts: “CIA officials now say they communicated significant doubts to the administration about the evidence backing up charges that Iraq tried to purchase uranium from Africa for nuclear weapons”

That evidence was dismissed as a forgery early this month by United Nations officials investigating Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs. The Bush administration does not dispute this conclusion.

Questioned about the forgery during a recent congressional hearing, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said, “We were aware of this piece of evidence, and it was provided in good faith to the [U.N.] inspectors.”

But in the days preceding the U.S. and British invasion of Iraq, some intelligence officials had begun to acknowledge more openly their doubts about how this and other information was used to support charges that Iraq has a significant covert program to produce weapons of mass destruction.

“I have seen all the stuff. I certainly have doubts,” said a senior administration official with access to the latest intelligence. Based on the material he has reviewed, the official said, the United States will “face significant problems in trying to find” such weapons. “It will be very difficult.”

Now, anyone want to actually, for once, comment on this fact instead of resorting to personal attacks?

29

The post I gave that showed the people of Safwan not actually being happy we are there was reported on ABCNews and on CNN, I do not read antiwar.com, and I have never been to that site.

Check it out here: “http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/iraq_safwan030322.html”

30

Dual Use Aluminum:
Again, every major news source reported this. CNN.com, ABCNews.com, FOXNews.com. MSNBC.com

Here’s one: MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News

Excerpt:
“Vice President Cheney and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice both repeated the claim, with Rice describing the tubes as ?only really suited for nuclear weapons programs.?”

“The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were ?not directly suitable? for uranium enrichment but were ?consistent? with making ordinary artillery rockets ? a finding that meshed with Iraq?s official explanation for the tubes. New evidence supporting that conclusion has been gathered in recent weeks and will be presented to the U.N. Security Council in a report due to be released on Monday, the officials said.”

?Moreover, there were clues from the beginning that should have raised doubts about claims that the tubes were part of a secret Iraqi nuclear weapons program, according to U.S. and international experts on uranium enrichment. The quantity and specifications of the tubes ? narrow, silver cylinders measuring 81 millimeters in diameter and about a meter in length-made them ill-suited to enrich uranium without extensive modification, the experts said.
? ? ? ?But they are a perfect fit for a well-documented 81mm conventional rocket program in place for two decades. Iraq imported the same aluminum tubes for rockets in the 1980s. The new tubes it tried to purchase actually bear an inscription that includes the word ?rocket,? according to one official who examined them."

31

scall144, the truth doesn’t hurt. Why does this have to be personal, with people’s feelings getting hurt?

Great post on OPEC price control. Great point. I’ll take that into account. No feelings hurt, I want to hear opinions. Thanks. Anyone else want to discuss information? Or more, “you’re dumb!”?

Once again I am not totally against this war, and I do NOT sit on antiwar.com all day (never been actually). I just want to hear someone who is totally in favor of going to war respond to the FACTS I’ve presented that were reported on every major news source and that the administration admitted to. This thread is just confirming my point that people in favor of this war simply have no answer for some of the actions of this administration.

32

DocT: I can help you out if you tell me which “argument” I made was a joke. I re-read my post and like I thought I didn’t make any arguments, I simply pointed out instances of this administration lying about the situation in Iraq. They are not conspiracy theories, they have been reported in every major news source, and in many instances our administration has admitted to them. Now, away from personal attacks and back to discussion, what do you think of these actions?

33

Halliburton contracts: Again, every major news source.

Here’s one: “http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/iraq_rebuilding_contract030322.html”

It’s just hilarious to me that you guys call this stuff “radical conspiracy theories.” This is what I am talking about when i say uninformed. This stuff was in every major news outlet, and the administration admitted to half this stuff, but to some of you it’s a “radical conspiracy.” Are the forged documents we used a “radical conspiiracy theory”? Well Colin Powell admitted to it.

34

Chrismcl: Your post about north korea was pretty good. You shold’ve kept it at that instead fo throwing in red herrings. No one here defends Saddam’s regime. He is a dictator, we will all be happy he is gone. You threw that in because you didn’t want to respond to the actual arguments people had made, so you fabricated an opinion we had (We like Saddam) and attacked that instead. I’ll ignore that, and respond to your North Korea analogy. I think you are exactly right about North Korea only doing this for attention. But we must also consider that North Korea does have the capacity to produce nuclear weapons, and we must also consider that they are the most heavy militarized society in the world today, and they make most of their money selling weapons. Personally I think we can contain them, but I thought we could contain Iraq also. Why fight Iraq, but appease the more powerful country that admits to having the weapons and has a history of selling them?

35

Realest, presenting “facts” is making an argument, whether you agree or not.

Also, I looked at the first source you posted. Since you like quotes so much, here goes.

“Secretary of State Colin Powell has denied the U.S. government had any hand in creating the false documents. “It came from other sources,” Powell told a House committee Thursday. “We were aware of this piece of evidence, and it was provided in good faith to the inspectors.””

So basically, we had no knowledge of the fact that these documents were not real. Hmmm…sounds damning to me. Surely you could not have read that and come to the conclusion that we purposefully misrepresented the facts, could you?

My problem with what you’re doing is that you’re presenting things as “facts” because a) you’ve heard them used as arguments or b) they’ve been reported by news sources. Neither of those makes them “facts.” Cite a credible source for your accusations if you’re going to make them. I looked up what you presented, and you’ll have to do better than that.

Also, you seem to have an attitude of “if you don’t agree with me, you’re obviously wrong and misinformed” in your posts. Sorry, but spouting propaganda and “facts” as you see them aren’t helping to further any argument you may have.

36

Why do you guys think you are different from the radical treehuggers? When I debate with them, and I bring up arguments like: Our sanctions, and the misappropriation of food for oil money by Saddam kills over 5000 children a month in Iraq, isn’t it time we take him out and give them a better life?

They respond with: “SHUT UP, you’re an idiot!” Why don’t they just answer the question? The figure on the number of children dying is from their own sources that villianize our sanctions, but if you give a counterpoint to the argument they just can’t respond. You guys are no different. It’s just funny to me that the radicals on both sides think the other side is so irrational, but you guys act IDENTICALLY.

37

ThaRealest…

I think that it is in the INTERPETATION of these facts that conspiracy theorists find truth…

"
A mathematician, a statistician and an accountant apply for the same job. The interviewer calls in the mathematician and asks “What do two plus two equal?”

The mathematician replies “Four.”

The interviewer asks “Four, exactly?”

The mathematician looks at the interviewer incredulously and says “Yes, four, exactly.”

Then the interviewer calls in the statistician and asks the same question “What do two plus two equal?”

The statistician says “On average, four - give or take ten percent, but on average, four.”

Then the interviewer calls in the accountant and poses the same question “What do two plus two equal?”

The accountant gets up, locks the door, closes the shade, sits down next to the interviewer and says “What do you want it to equal?”

~ Old joke but still funny!

38

Sigh…

Realest, the problem is that you make assertions and claim that “they’re reported by every single news source that’s ever existed” yet you cannot provide one credible link to what you claim.

That alone is bad enough but your “holier than thou” attitude makes it much worse.

39

Looky at what I just found.
It is an old newspaper with headlines stating that Dewey Beat Truman. Damn it must be true! Here it is in black and white.
With a little search, any hald-wit can find “facts” supporting his side. A classic post (On this web-site no less) Was that 59% on people are killed by sober drivers.
Fact, the war has started.
Fact, You can debate all you want about it or you can do something positive.
“Tell me, Older Lifter. What can I do?”
Give Blood to the Red Cross. Contact your local Emergency Management Professionals and ask how to become a CERT member. Contact Americares and see if you can help them.
Best of Luck.

40

To realest,
I did not mean for the “truth hurts” statement to be a personal attack and it did come off that way so I do apologize for it. I will gladly discuss the issues regarding this war in a respectful manor, name slinging will never produce any resolutions.
The truth is our reasons for “liberating” Iraq are not altruistic by any means. If this was the case we would need to invade all of Central Africa, a majority of the Arab countries in the middle east and even parts of Southeast Asia were genocide, extreme and brutal human rights violations against women and a vast amount of other atrocities are being commited. It is no surprise that Pres. Bush’s approval rating has risen nearly 20% since the war has begun, there are some political aspects to this war.
We also are not invading Iraq for the protection of Israel, our imperialistic nature, or our greed for an oil supply of our own. We could much more easily tap Alaska for oil, drive the Palestianians out of their settlements, and invade Junior America( Canada) to satisfy those needs.
The truth is after 9/11 the Continental United States is now seen as a target. Now many of you might not grasp the severity of this so re read my last sentence. A large portion of the World despieses our wealth, our policy of policing the world, and our support of israel, but before 9/11 we were all safe within in the boundaries of the continental US, now we are not. Our government has a duty to “insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity,” this is exactly what this war is about.