[quote]jidayjiday wrote:
Yes sir.
And what about the higher estrogen levels ?
[/quote]
What about it?
[quote]jidayjiday wrote:
Yes sir.
And what about the higher estrogen levels ?
[/quote]
Read the AI sticky. Controlling estrogen is a very common practice.
Thank you Overstand.
What I was trying to say, is test is not better for estrogen level. Bonez217 was saying test is the best because you still need some estrogen along the way. But still, you’ll have to deal with higher estrogen, and address that in a way or another.
So why not opt for some steroid that aromatizes less, and also that has less androgenic effects to save your hair and your prostate, etc…
That was actually my primary question.
[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
[quote]jidayjiday wrote:
[quote]deapee wrote:
What is your goal if you decide to run a cycle? Gain 15 pounds? Gain 20 pounds?
[/quote]
I don’t have any goal right now : I’m not planning on going on a cycle soon, I’m still in my learning phase 
I’m not talking about injecting many chemicals… Only one, at a time, to assess your sensibility to it. But once again, my question is more : why ever start by test ?
When you use anabolic steroids your body stops producing testosterone of its own.
When your body does not produce testosterone your body loses its main source of estradiol. Estradiol is necessary for a man to feel right and funciton properly. It should be kept within a very specific range.
So if you use anabolic steroids but dont find a way to replace the estrogen, you leave yourself in a bad spot, to put it as simply as possible.
There are other ways to replace estrogen, but using testosterone is the most productive way as it also is excellent at building muscle.
Then theres also the issue with the different classes of steroids. Some steroids yield results by binding to and activating the androgen receptor. And some steroids appear to yield results by some other means. These are called class I and class II steroids. Testosterone is both class I and class II.
There is plenty in this post to serve as starting points for further research. Enjoy your reading. [/quote]
Very well put
[quote]jidayjiday wrote:
Thank you Overstand.
What I was trying to say, is test is not better for estrogen level. Bonez217 was saying test is the best because you still need some estrogen along the way. But still, you’ll have to deal with higher estrogen, and address that in a way or another.
So why not opt for some steroid that aromatizes less, and also that has less androgenic effects to save your hair and your prostate, etc…
That was actually my primary question. [/quote]
BigSkwatta gave some good reasons. Another big reason (maybe the biggest) is any AAS you take is going to shut down your natural testosterone production. If you don’t want to feel like a giant pile of shit for the duration of your cycle, you need at least a replacement dose of Testosterone. There are some people who run low Test with high Tren to minimize the estrogenic sides, but then you run into a whole new set of progesteronic issues. Plus Tren is going to cause some side effects a first time user will not be prepared for. On a Masteron/Winstrol only cycle, you are going to feel like garbage and the gains will be modest at best compared to a cycle with Testosterone. You have to understand that risk/reward must be a consideration when you use AAS. Every cycle you run, regardless of the drugs used, is harder to recover from than the last. Shutting your HPTA down and sacrificing gains to try to avoid estrogenic side effects is the wrong way to look at this.
Estrogen is easily controllable, and if done right the side effects are minimal. If you are worried about hair loss or postate issues, you can take a DHT blocker with your cycle.
[quote]jidayjiday wrote:
“Not sure exactly what other compounds you are referring to” : not sure what you mean by that …
Why would someone ever want androgenic effects ? Thats precisely what everybody wants to avoid at all cost, unless I missed something.
[/quote]
You did miss something. “Androgenic” effects certainly aren’t horrible by definition. It isn’t the same as “virilizing”, though it may encompass such effects; your understanding of the actual differences is very primitive.
As for how these numbers have been determined, it’s based on old rat studies where they basically weigh a portion of the prostate and they weigh one of the pelvic muscles, and compare the two weights to those of baseline, untreated rats. Results from test-treated rats are normalized and used as a basis for comparison. There are plenty of flaws in assuming that this correlates readily with human usage of AAS, or even that it accurately represents what it claims to represent in rats, themselves.
Listen, if you have the money, run 800 mg of Primo a week. It might be roughly equivalent to 500 mg Test plus AI. If you don’t have the money, run 600 mg equipose a week. Yes, it might cause some anxiety or other sides, but it might not. Or run some strange compound that nobody’s heard about yet here, but is getting rave reviews on some other forum despite a lack of long term usage and understanding of side effects. There are options, but in the future you might find people far less patient with you if you come back and post here acting like you understand things soooo clearly and everyone else is a fool for doing what they’re doing, when in reality you seem to understand very little about what these compounds do.
[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
There are options, but in the future you might find people far less patient with you if you come back and post here acting like you understand things soooo clearly and everyone else is a fool for doing what they’re doing, when in reality you seem to understand very little about what these compounds do.[/quote]
I dont see where you took this idea from… I never said i wanted to go on a cycle, never said people were fool, never said that I do understand things very clearly,… Maybe because i used the term “dogmatic” ? This is precisely the reason why I’m asking a question here to the board.
I have the feeling that some empirical knowledge got hardcoded in many people’s head (by experience & learning), and many such empirical theoremes get spread out over the net, but still, with the feeling that the demonstration has been lost along the road. I’m not saying you lost it, just saying, it looks hidden and obscure for the newb that I am. As if, between Wikipedia and the reality of usage, some steps were missing…
(that Wikipedia thing is a way of saying, don’t take it verbatim)
Cant you get the a:a ratios from the rate of aromatization and of dht reduction, normalized to test’s own tendency to transmute ? This should be measurable in the human body directly ?
[quote]overstand wrote:
[quote]jidayjiday wrote:
Thank you Overstand.
What I was trying to say, is test is not better for estrogen level. Bonez217 was saying test is the best because you still need some estrogen along the way. But still, you’ll have to deal with higher estrogen, and address that in a way or another.
So why not opt for some steroid that aromatizes less, and also that has less androgenic effects to save your hair and your prostate, etc…
That was actually my primary question. [/quote]
BigSkwatta gave some good reasons. Another big reason (maybe the biggest) is any AAS you take is going to shut down your natural testosterone production. If you don’t want to feel like a giant pile of shit for the duration of your cycle, you need at least a replacement dose of Testosterone. There are some people who run low Test with high Tren to minimize the estrogenic sides, but then you run into a whole new set of progesteronic issues. Plus Tren is going to cause some side effects a first time user will not be prepared for. On a Masteron/Winstrol only cycle, you are going to feel like garbage and the gains will be modest at best compared to a cycle with Testosterone. You have to understand that risk/reward must be a consideration when you use AAS. Every cycle you run, regardless of the drugs used, is harder to recover from than the last. Shutting your HPTA down and sacrificing gains to try to avoid estrogenic side effects is the wrong way to look at this.
Estrogen is easily controllable, and if done right the side effects are minimal. If you are worried about hair loss or postate issues, you can take a DHT blocker with your cycle. [/quote]
Thank you for your input.
[quote]whotookmyname wrote:
You did miss something. “Androgenic” effects certainly aren’t horrible by definition. It isn’t the same as “virilizing”, though it may encompass such effects; your understanding of the actual differences is very primitive.
.[/quote]
[Wiki]Anabolic and androgenic effects
As the name suggests, anabolic-androgenic steroids have two different, but overlapping, types of effects: anabolic, meaning that they promote anabolism (cell growth), and androgenic (or virilising), meaning that they affect the development and maintenance of masculine characteristics.
According to my comprehension, for what its worth, in the definition of the ratio, the androgen part is strictly restricted to the virilizing effect of the compound.