Why Stimulus Packages Don't Work

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:

Which is why tax dollars are best spent on services and works, not simple income redistribution.
[/quote]
Income should not be distributed. It should be earned.

Where on earth did you find evidence of this? A very very very small minority of rich inherited it. How man Rockefellers, Morgans, or Carnegies, are still on the forbe 400 list.

But the money was earned by someone. That someone gave it to her. None of your business.

wrong

This is incredibly idiotic. Many on this planet have the same opportunities and chose not to make the same sacrifices. Being lucky has nothing to do with it.

wrong. And do you not understand the “income” part of income tax? Any wealth that has been given to familiy has been taxed already…twice. If you can’t wrap your head around this simple concept, maybe you should try another forum.

And for others’ educations.

[quote]
…yet their parents bought them a brand new car on their 16th birthday, with an unlimited credit card to pay for gas.

The overwhelming majority of these so-called “hard working” wealthy are nothing but a bunch of overprivileged, bitchy little girls. They need to shut the fuck up and pay their goddamn dues.

ElbowStrike[/quote]
Where do you find evidense that a majority of the wealthy inherited their wealth?

[quote]dhickey wrote:

The overwhelming majority of these so-called “hard working” wealthy are nothing but a bunch of overprivileged, bitchy little girls. They need to shut the fuck up and pay their goddamn dues.

ElbowStrike
Where do you find evidense that a majority of the wealthy inherited their wealth?
[/quote]

I’m trying to figure this out too, last time i checked figures it was like 90%+ of people worth one million or more were first generation, self made people.

Class envy, it is ugly. You aren’t owed anything, and there are no “dues” to pay.

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
dhickey wrote:

The overwhelming majority of these so-called “hard working” wealthy are nothing but a bunch of overprivileged, bitchy little girls. They need to shut the fuck up and pay their goddamn dues.

ElbowStrike
Where do you find evidense that a majority of the wealthy inherited their wealth?

I’m trying to figure this out too, last time i checked figures it was like 90%+ of people worth one million or more were first generation, self made people.

Class envy, it is ugly. You aren’t owed anything, and there are no “dues” to pay.[/quote]

probably just semantics, as the money had to be earned at some point and has probably been through the tax system several times before being inherited. It just bothers me when people resite dogma with no facts or reason attached.

I don’t know about anyone else, but for a couple of years now my wife and I have been working very hard at being debt free. We use credit cards only when we can paid them in full. Or we save until the cash is available.

We recently purchased a small piece of property. We are making triple payments. Should be paid in 2 1/2 years instead of 15. Saves me 1000’s. We make extra payments on our house to pay it off early.

We have 1 car payment and mainly that is my business expense. And we save at least 15% of our income a month. We also have about 8 months worths of cash saved for a rainy day. All of this was done by design. It was not of overnight accomplishment. It has taken years of dedication and discipline.

We could have bought a bigger house, a bigger property, a newer vehicle, etc, but that is fiscally irresponsible. NO ONE is going to bail me out when I spend more that I make. I don’t expect them to.

Has any of this affected our standard of living? NO. We still eat everyday. We still enjoy life.

I believe all of these problems stem from irresponsiblity. All the way from our government to the people who knew they shouldn’t but did it anyway. Nothing is going to change until the buy now pay later attitude changes.

This rant is 12 months no payments! Discreetly billed to your credit card.

[quote]vroom wrote:
orion wrote:
What you do not seem to get is that there is no rhetoric behind it.

The government steals my money and gives it to other people.

The inherent element of servitude is not something you can simply dismiss to be able to discuss with us how to make that servitude as bearable as possible.

I am also done with debating libertarianism on utilitarian grounds, for even if plundering and stealing actually worked it is still wrong.

We are not having a discussion about your pet ideologies at the moment.

Sometimes, from time to time, people actually like to focus on issues other than your view of the world. Anyway, regardless of your view of government, or the worth of it in general, economics should still apply.[/quote]

And economics do apply here.

I was just pointing out that you want to use economics to organize theft more efficiently and that your refusal to call it theft is in itself ideological.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How is taxation not theft?[/quote]

What kind of stupid question is that?

“Theft” is an unlawful taking of someone’s property. Taxes are lawful. Therefore, taxes are not theft.

Now, I suppose you can redefine “theft” to include “lawful taking of property that someone didn’t really want to surrender.” But that would deprive the word “theft” of any real value in conversation. If taxation is “theft”, then so is the repossession of a vehicle to recover delinquent payments, and so is bank foreclosure of someone’s home. After all, it’s my home, not the bank’s, right?

[quote]danc2469 wrote:
I don’t know about anyone else, but for a couple of years now my wife and I have been working very hard at being debt free. We use credit cards only when we can paid them in full. Or we save until the cash is available.

We recently purchased a small piece of property. We are making triple payments. Should be paid in 2 1/2 years instead of 15. Saves me 1000’s. We make extra payments on our house to pay it off early.

We have 1 car payment and mainly that is my business expense. And we save at least 15% of our income a month. We also have about 8 months worths of cash saved for a rainy day. All of this was done by design. It was not of overnight accomplishment. It has taken years of dedication and discipline.

We could have bought a bigger house, a bigger property, a newer vehicle, etc, but that is fiscally irresponsible. NO ONE is going to bail me out when I spend more that I make. I don’t expect them to.

Has any of this affected our standard of living? NO. We still eat everyday. We still enjoy life.

I believe all of these problems stem from irresponsiblity. All the way from our government to the people who knew they shouldn’t but did it anyway. Nothing is going to change until the buy now pay later attitude changes.

This rant is 12 months no payments! Discreetly billed to your credit card.[/quote]

So simple yet for some reason people can’t connect this to gov’t spending.

[quote]milod wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How is taxation not theft?

What kind of stupid question is that?

“Theft” is an unlawful taking of someone’s property. Taxes are lawful. Therefore, taxes are not theft.

Now, I suppose you can redefine “theft” to include “lawful taking of property that someone didn’t really want to surrender.” But that would deprive the word “theft” of any real value in conversation. If taxation is “theft”, then so is the repossession of a vehicle to recover delinquent payments, and so is bank foreclosure of someone’s home. After all, it’s my home, not the bank’s, right?[/quote]

You are right, the reoccurring nature makes it more a kind of servitude.

Which was of course also perfectly legal.

[quote]milod wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
How is taxation not theft?

What kind of stupid question is that?

“Theft” is an unlawful taking of someone’s property. Taxes are lawful. Therefore, taxes are not theft.

Now, I suppose you can redefine “theft” to include “lawful taking of property that someone didn’t really want to surrender.” But that would deprive the word “theft” of any real value in conversation. If taxation is “theft”, then so is the repossession of a vehicle to recover delinquent payments, and so is bank foreclosure of someone’s home. After all, it’s my home, not the bank’s, right?[/quote]

You have your notions completely bassackward.

You have a mortgage, the bank has the title, it’s the bank’s property until the mortgage is settled.

What the government does is theft and is wrong. What banks do is…

funny because they lend you fake money and then reclaim real estate.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You have your notions completely bassackward.
[/quote]
With all due respect, I’m not the one using a criminal term to describe a perfectly legal activity.

I’ve shown how taxation is not theft - that is, it’s not theft by definition. Would you care to explain why you think taxation by a representative government is either unlawful or immoral?

[quote]milod wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You have your notions completely bassackward.

With all due respect, I’m not the one using a criminal term to describe a perfectly legal activity.

I’ve shown how taxation is not theft - that is, it’s not theft by definition. Would you care to explain why you think taxation by a representative government is either unlawful or immoral?
[/quote]

You could start by building an ethical justification for a state in general and taxation in particular.

Hint: Unless you believe in divine right, both has never successfully been done before.

The reason why taxation is theft is that the other side has no leg to stand on, i.e. there has never been a successful attempt to prove the opposite and contrary to what you believe the concept of theft existed before the US made it illegal.

And I am not even going into a rant of how ass backwards it is to use a criminals definition to judge the criminality of his acts.

[quote]orion wrote:
milod wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

You have your notions completely bassackward.

With all due respect, I’m not the one using a criminal term to describe a perfectly legal activity.

I’ve shown how taxation is not theft - that is, it’s not theft by definition. Would you care to explain why you think taxation by a representative government is either unlawful or immoral?

You could start by building an ethical justification for a state in general and taxation in particular.

Hint: Unless you believe in divine right, both has never successfully been done before. what we spend on is as important as how much; to spend on “infrastructure” is not enough

The reason why taxation is theft is that the other side has no leg to stand on, i.e. there has never been a successful attempt to prove the opposite and contrary to what you believe the concept of theft existed before the US made it illegal.

And I am not even going into a rant of how ass backwards it is to use a criminals definition to judge the criminality of his acts.

[/quote]

not a fan of hobbes or locke or rousseau? or of any mainstream modern political theory? you’re an anarchist then?

on topic: just because Japan fucked up their stimulus doesn’t mean we will… but the more pork in the bill the worse things get

[quote]valiance. wrote:
on topic: just because Japan fucked up their stimulus doesn’t mean we will… but the more pork in the bill the worse things get[/quote]

Japan tried over and over to put these “stimulus” packages into effect in the 90’s and they didn’t work. What would make any reasonable person think that they will work here?

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
valiance. wrote:
on topic: just because Japan fucked up their stimulus doesn’t mean we will… but the more pork in the bill the worse things get

Japan tried over and over to put these “stimulus” packages into effect in the 90’s and they didn’t work. What would make any reasonable person think that they will work here?
[/quote]

They weren’t designed to work, for the purposes you have in mind.

I predict that, given what it was designed for, the stimulus package will be a stering success.

[quote]danc2469 wrote:
I don’t know about anyone else, but for a couple of years now my wife and I have been working very hard at being debt free. We use credit cards only when we can paid them in full. Or we save until the cash is available.

We recently purchased a small piece of property. We are making triple payments. Should be paid in 2 1/2 years instead of 15. Saves me 1000’s. We make extra payments on our house to pay it off early.

We have 1 car payment and mainly that is my business expense. And we save at least 15% of our income a month. We also have about 8 months worths of cash saved for a rainy day. All of this was done by design. It was not of overnight accomplishment. It has taken years of dedication and discipline.

We could have bought a bigger house, a bigger property, a newer vehicle, etc, but that is fiscally irresponsible. NO ONE is going to bail me out when I spend more that I make. I don’t expect them to.

Has any of this affected our standard of living? NO. We still eat everyday. We still enjoy life.

I believe all of these problems stem from irresponsiblity. All the way from our government to the people who knew they shouldn’t but did it anyway. Nothing is going to change until the buy now pay later attitude changes.

This rant is 12 months no payments! Discreetly billed to your credit card.[/quote]

Good Fucking Job!!! Now go have a bunch of kids and teach them to be responsible like yourself. The world needs them desperately.

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
valiance. wrote:
on topic: just because Japan fucked up their stimulus doesn’t mean we will… but the more pork in the bill the worse things get

Japan tried over and over to put these “stimulus” packages into effect in the 90’s and they didn’t work. What would make any reasonable person think that they will work here?
[/quote]

Is the sort of logic you apply to any situation or just stimulus packages.

But short answer: we’re not doing the exact same thing.

[quote]100meters wrote:

Is the sort of logic you apply to any situation or just stimulus packages.

But short answer: we’re not doing the exact same thing.[/quote]

We’re not doing the “exact same thing” but we are doing something similar to what the Japanese did.

Here is one article in the WSJ that details the similarities between the two:

As January 20 nears, Barack Obama’s ambitions for spending on the likes of roads, bridges and jobless benefits keep growing. The latest leak puts the “stimulus” at $1 trillion over a couple of years, and the political class is embracing it as a miracle cure.

Not to spoil the party, but this is not a new idea. Keynesian “pump-priming” in a recession has often been tried, and as an economic stimulus it is overrated. The money that the government spends has to come from somewhere, which means from the private economy in higher taxes or borrowing. The public works are usually less productive than the foregone private investment.

In the Age of Obama, we seem fated to re-explain these eternal lessons. So for today we thought we’d recount the history of the last major country that tried to spend its way to “stimulus” – Japan during its “lost decade” of the 1990s. In 1992, Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa faced falling property prices and a stock market that had sunk 60% in three years. Mr. Miyazawa’s Liberal Democratic Party won re-election promising that Japan would spend its way to becoming a “lifestyle superpower.” The country embarked on a great Keynesian experiment…

Now we’re told that a similar spending program – a new New Deal – will revive the U.S. economy. How do you say “good luck” in Japanese?

Here is another article about how the stimulus bill will hurt the economy in the long run:

President Barack Obama speaks to the House Democratic Issues Conference on Thursday in Williamsburg. Associated Press

President Obama’s economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

The House last week passed a bill totaling about $820 billion while the Senate is working on a proposal reaching about $900 billion in spending increases and tax cuts.

But Republicans and some moderate Democrats have balked at the size of the bill and at some of the spending items included in it, arguing they won’t produce immediate jobs, which is the stated goal of the bill.

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill – forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

CBO did project the bill would create jobs, though by 2011 the effects would be minuscule.

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
100meters wrote:

Is the sort of logic you apply to any situation or just stimulus packages.

But short answer: we’re not doing the exact same thing.

We’re not doing the “exact same thing” but we are doing something similar to what the Japanese did.

Here is one article in the WSJ that details the similarities between the two:

As January 20 nears, Barack Obama’s ambitions for spending on the likes of roads, bridges and jobless benefits keep growing. The latest leak puts the “stimulus” at $1 trillion over a couple of years, and the political class is embracing it as a miracle cure.

Not to spoil the party, but this is not a new idea. Keynesian “pump-priming” in a recession has often been tried, and as an economic stimulus it is overrated. The money that the government spends has to come from somewhere, which means from the private economy in higher taxes or borrowing. The public works are usually less productive than the foregone private investment.

In the Age of Obama, we seem fated to re-explain these eternal lessons. So for today we thought we’d recount the history of the last major country that tried to spend its way to “stimulus” – Japan during its “lost decade” of the 1990s. In 1992, Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa faced falling property prices and a stock market that had sunk 60% in three years. Mr. Miyazawa’s Liberal Democratic Party won re-election promising that Japan would spend its way to becoming a “lifestyle superpower.” The country embarked on a great Keynesian experiment…

Now we’re told that a similar spending program – a new New Deal – will revive the U.S. economy. How do you say “good luck” in Japanese?

Here is another article about how the stimulus bill will hurt the economy in the long run:

President Barack Obama speaks to the House Democratic Issues Conference on Thursday in Williamsburg. Associated Press

President Obama’s economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

The House last week passed a bill totaling about $820 billion while the Senate is working on a proposal reaching about $900 billion in spending increases and tax cuts.

But Republicans and some moderate Democrats have balked at the size of the bill and at some of the spending items included in it, arguing they won’t produce immediate jobs, which is the stated goal of the bill.

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill – forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

CBO did project the bill would create jobs, though by 2011 the effects would be minuscule.

[/quote]
Dinan, the editorial author you incredibly posted is a hack. He’s badly misrepresenting the CBO’s findings, which you could simply read yourself, but then you’d come back here supporting the stimulus right?

But for a laugh look how Dinan fooled you (yes I know you want to be fooled, but that’s another story)

The CBO (if you read the report!!!) says that the GDP will but up in 2010-11 by 1 to 3.6 percent!

But Dinan focused on a .1 to .3 drop. In 2019! And you posted this! What a hoot.

[quote]phil_leotardo wrote:
100meters wrote:

Is the sort of logic you apply to any situation or just stimulus packages.

But short answer: we’re not doing the exact same thing.

We’re not doing the “exact same thing” but we are doing something similar to what the Japanese did.

Here is one article in the WSJ that details the similarities between the two:

As January 20 nears, Barack Obama’s ambitions for spending on the likes of roads, bridges and jobless benefits keep growing. The latest leak puts the “stimulus” at $1 trillion over a couple of years, and the political class is embracing it as a miracle cure.

Not to spoil the party, but this is not a new idea. Keynesian “pump-priming” in a recession has often been tried, and as an economic stimulus it is overrated. The money that the government spends has to come from somewhere, which means from the private economy in higher taxes or borrowing. The public works are usually less productive than the foregone private investment.

In the Age of Obama, we seem fated to re-explain these eternal lessons. So for today we thought we’d recount the history of the last major country that tried to spend its way to “stimulus” – Japan during its “lost decade” of the 1990s. In 1992, Japanese Prime Minister Kiichi Miyazawa faced falling property prices and a stock market that had sunk 60% in three years. Mr. Miyazawa’s Liberal Democratic Party won re-election promising that Japan would spend its way to becoming a “lifestyle superpower.” The country embarked on a great Keynesian experiment…

Now we’re told that a similar spending program – a new New Deal – will revive the U.S. economy. How do you say “good luck” in Japanese?

[/quote]

On similarities to the Japanese “stimulus” if we don’t take bold and decisive action on these big banks, then we are headed down that road.

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/general/view/2009_02_25_Edward_Johnson_Slams_FDR_‘New_Deal_II_:_Blames_feds_for_crisis__derides_U_S__spending/srvc=home&position=5

Yet another detractor on the folly of the spending bill.