Why One Should Never Talk to the Police

Off Topic
41

[quote]eic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I wonder what race most of these people are.

Oh, here’s the answer:
Of the 201 now exonerated, 120 were black and 15 had spent time on death row. Together, they had served 2,496 years.

This doesn’t necessarily tell us anything. It definitely looks bad, but blacks make up a disproportionately large number of convicts. Indeed, when you consider that blacks make up about half of the prison population, the 59% inaccurate-accusal rate you cited is not that far off. I bet with a larger sample size, there is little or no disparity between the two.

The fact that blacks make up half the prison population is another matter. That is because blacks are being wrongly accused of those crimes far more frequently than whites (which you clearly imply), because blacks actually commit more crimes than whites, or a combination of the two. I believe that, on the whole, any institutional bias against blacks only accounts for a small number of false convictions. If true, then the real culprit behind your statistic is the fact that blacks are committing so many crimes. That, of course, is a huge topic itself. [/quote]

This is about INNOCENT PEOPLE who were thrown in jail for years for crimes they did NOT commit. It is no small fact that most of those people found innocent through DNA testing have been black. It points to blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races and nothing more. That is the ONLY conclusion you can draw from it. Why even try to act like that isn’t significant in and of itself?

Instead of asking WHY blacks are being fingered and wrongly accused more than any other race (as a sign of inherent flaws in our own judicial system), you actually tried to blame those black people for it as if it was STILL their fault it happened. That is ridiculous and you shouldn’t even need to be told this.

42

[quote]Professor X wrote:
eic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I wonder what race most of these people are.

Oh, here’s the answer:
Of the 201 now exonerated, 120 were black and 15 had spent time on death row. Together, they had served 2,496 years.

This doesn’t necessarily tell us anything. It definitely looks bad, but blacks make up a disproportionately large number of convicts. Indeed, when you consider that blacks make up about half of the prison population, the 59% inaccurate-accusal rate you cited is not that far off. I bet with a larger sample size, there is little or no disparity between the two.

The fact that blacks make up half the prison population is another matter. That is because blacks are being wrongly accused of those crimes far more frequently than whites (which you clearly imply), because blacks actually commit more crimes than whites, or a combination of the two. I believe that, on the whole, any institutional bias against blacks only accounts for a small number of false convictions. If true, then the real culprit behind your statistic is the fact that blacks are committing so many crimes. That, of course, is a huge topic itself.

This is about INNOCENT PEOPLE who were thrown in jail for years for crimes they did NOT commit. It is no small fact that most of those people found innocent through DNA testing have been black. It points to blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races and nothing more. That is the ONLY conclusion you can draw from it. Why even try to act like that isn’t significant in and of itself?

Instead of asking WHY blacks are being fingered and wrongly accused more than any other race (as a sign of inherent flaws in our own judicial system), you actually tried to blame those black people for it as if it was STILL their fault it happened. That is ridiculous and you shouldn’t even need to be told this.[/quote]

I think he’s just saying the statistic might mislead you into thinking that institutional bias is the major culprit. Obviously, if someone is wrongly accused then it’s not their fault. But the opportunities to be wrongly accused are higher in minority neighborhoods with more crime.

I’m sure institutional racial bias plays a role - but it would be relatively rare in comparison to just flat-out error. I’m sure that in certain areas you could have a white suspect and a black suspect for a crime, and have the black suspect be a lot more likely to be convicted. But this probably isn’t as common a scenario as two suspects of the same race in which obviously there could be no racial bias. In this case a biased justice system just might not care as much and could be more prone to error as long as they get a conviction. But the statistic would only support that if the percentage of minorities in prison overall was much less than the percentage of minorities which had been found to have been wrongfully convicted, which it doesn’t seem to.

43

[quote]nowakc wrote:
I think he’s just saying the statistic might mislead you into thinking that institutional bias is the major culprit. Obviously, if someone is wrongly accused then it’s not their fault. But the opportunities to be wrongly accused are higher in minority neighborhoods with more crime. [/quote]

Why would you assume that the men who were convicted falsely all grew up in majority black neighborhoods? Do you assume that white people who go to jail all grew up in majority white neighborhoods? You are jumping to conclusions to fit your own beliefs.

[quote]

I’m sure institutional racial bias plays a role - but it would be relatively rare in comparison to just flat-out error. I’m sure that in certain areas you could have a white suspect and a black suspect for a crime, and have the black suspect be a lot more likely to be convicted. But this probably isn’t as common a scenario as two suspects of the same race in which obviously there could be no racial bias. In this case a biased justice system just might not care as much and could be more prone to error as long as they get a conviction. But the statistic would only support that if the percentage of minorities in prison overall was much less than the percentage of minorities which had been found to have been wrongfully convicted, which it doesn’t seem to.[/quote]

The statistic does NOT need to match up with the number of minorities in jail. Again, the ONLY conclusion one can draw from the info provided is that blacks are wrongly accused and sent to jail for years more than any other race. Whether this is due to pure racism, juror ignorance or unreliable witness testimony is an unknown. None of that erases the fact that blaming these arrests and convictions on black people because blacks are incarcerated more can be seen as racist in and of itself.

Also, if two people commit a crime and one is black and the other white, if the black person is more likely to be found guilty, it STILL points to a problem with our judicial system and NOT with black people in general.

44

I think a more useful statistic would be the wrongful conviction rate as a percentage of the total incarceration rate for a particular race.

In other words, if X white guys are incarcerated, what percentage of X were incarcerated wrongfully. If Y black guys are incarcerated, what percentage wrongfully. Then, compare the two wrongful incarceration rates. That might be more interesting.

45

[quote]Professor X wrote:

This is about INNOCENT PEOPLE who were thrown in jail for years for crimes they did NOT commit. It is no small fact that most of those people found innocent through DNA testing have been black. It points to blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races and nothing more. That is the ONLY conclusion you can draw from it. Why even try to act like that isn’t significant in and of itself?

Instead of asking WHY blacks are being fingered and wrongly accused more than any other race (as a sign of inherent flaws in our own judicial system), you actually tried to blame those black people for it as if it was STILL their fault it happened. That is ridiculous and you shouldn’t even need to be told this.[/quote]

You’re missing the point, I’m afraid. The statistic you quoted showed that slightly more than half (59%) of falsely convicted people are black. We already know that half the people convicted of crimes are black. Thus, in contrast to your claim, your statistic does not support the conclusion that “blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races.” Instead, it shows that the rate of false convictions for blacks is about the same as for other races. The numbers don’t lie.

46

[quote]eic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

This is about INNOCENT PEOPLE who were thrown in jail for years for crimes they did NOT commit. It is no small fact that most of those people found innocent through DNA testing have been black. It points to blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races and nothing more. That is the ONLY conclusion you can draw from it. Why even try to act like that isn’t significant in and of itself?

Instead of asking WHY blacks are being fingered and wrongly accused more than any other race (as a sign of inherent flaws in our own judicial system), you actually tried to blame those black people for it as if it was STILL their fault it happened. That is ridiculous and you shouldn’t even need to be told this.

You’re missing the point, I’m afraid. The statistic you quoted showed that slightly more than half (59%) of falsely convicted people are black. We already know that half the people convicted of crimes are black. Thus, in contrast to your claim, your statistic does not support the conclusion that “blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races.” Instead, it shows that the rate of false convictions for blacks is about the same as for other races. The numbers don’t lie.[/quote]

The numbers don’t lie…which is why your statement that it does not show blacks are being falsely sentenced more is itself FALSE.

Of course it shows this. They ARE being sentenced falsely more than other races and the relation to the number of convicts does not erase this. In fact, if anything, it should make people question whether ALL of those blacks in jail deserve to be there. Clearly, they don’t since so many are being found innocent and the DNA charity is just getting started.

Also, as stated before, if blacks and other races are committing similar crimes but blacks are more likely to get arrested for it and found guilty, it should make you question whether blacks are even committing more crimes to the degree stats have implied in the past.

Why doesn’t this info make you question these things? Why insist that the statistics for crime rates are accurately showing GUILT?

47

[quote]eic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I wonder what race most of these people are.

Oh, here’s the answer:
Of the 201 now exonerated, 120 were black and 15 had spent time on death row. Together, they had served 2,496 years.

This doesn’t necessarily tell us anything. It definitely looks bad, but blacks make up a disproportionately large number of convicts. Indeed, when you consider that blacks make up about half of the prison population, the 59% inaccurate-accusal rate you cited is not that far off. I bet with a larger sample size, there is little or no disparity between the two.

The fact that blacks make up half the prison population is another matter. That is because blacks are being wrongly accused of those crimes far more frequently than whites (which you clearly imply), because blacks actually commit more crimes than whites, or a combination of the two. I believe that, on the whole, any institutional bias against blacks only accounts for a small number of false convictions. If true, then the real culprit behind your statistic is the fact that blacks are committing so many crimes. That, of course, is a huge topic itself. [/quote]

You have to take into account institutionalized racism.

As an example, the expressway I take to work is a major drug corridor between Detroit and Chicago. Near daily I see traffic stops, with the belongings of the cars occupants scattered on the ground. I have yet to see one of these stops involving a Caucasian. In fact as a 40 something white man in a pickup truck the cops don’t look twice at me if I keep it under 80.

This is just anecdotal, but it suggests that certainly some of these stops were for DWB (driving while black/brown).

48

[quote]Professor X wrote:
eic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

This is about INNOCENT PEOPLE who were thrown in jail for years for crimes they did NOT commit. It is no small fact that most of those people found innocent through DNA testing have been black. It points to blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races and nothing more. That is the ONLY conclusion you can draw from it. Why even try to act like that isn’t significant in and of itself?

Instead of asking WHY blacks are being fingered and wrongly accused more than any other race (as a sign of inherent flaws in our own judicial system), you actually tried to blame those black people for it as if it was STILL their fault it happened. That is ridiculous and you shouldn’t even need to be told this.

You’re missing the point, I’m afraid. The statistic you quoted showed that slightly more than half (59%) of falsely convicted people are black. We already know that half the people convicted of crimes are black. Thus, in contrast to your claim, your statistic does not support the conclusion that “blacks being sentenced for crimes falsely more than other races.” Instead, it shows that the rate of false convictions for blacks is about the same as for other races. The numbers don’t lie.

The numbers don’t lie…which is why your statement that it does not show blacks are being falsely sentenced more is itself FALSE.

Of course it shows this. They ARE being sentenced falsely more than other races and the relation to the number of convicts does not erase this. In fact, if anything, it should make people question whether ALL of those blacks in jail deserve to be there. Clearly, they don’t since so many are being found innocent and the DNA charity is just getting started.

Also, as stated before, if blacks and other races are committing similar crimes but blacks are more likely to get arrested for it and found guilty, it should make you question whether blacks are even committing more crimes to the degree stats have implied in the past.

Why doesn’t this info make you question these things? Why insist that the statistics for crime rates are accurately showing GUILT?[/quote]

Black people are clearly wrongly convicted in greater numbers, but I would be interested to see if blacks are being wrongly convicted at a greater RATE than other races.

in other words, if the current prison population is made up of x% blacks, y% whites and z% others, then I would expect that of all the people wrongly convicted x% are black, y% are white and z% are others. If that is NOT the case, and if in fact out of the total wrongly convicted population black people make up some percentage greater than x then yes, I would say black people are being wrongly convicted at a greater rate. but short of that I remain skeptical.

49

[quote]Professor X wrote:

The numbers don’t lie…which is why your statement that it does not show blacks are being falsely sentenced more is itself FALSE.

Of course it shows this. They ARE being sentenced falsely more than other races and the relation to the number of convicts does not erase this. In fact, if anything, it should make people question whether ALL of those blacks in jail deserve to be there. Clearly, they don’t since so many are being found innocent and the DNA charity is just getting started.

Also, as stated before, if blacks and other races are committing similar crimes but blacks are more likely to get arrested for it and found guilty, it should make you question whether blacks are even committing more crimes to the degree stats have implied in the past.

Why doesn’t this info make you question these things? Why insist that the statistics for crime rates are accurately showing GUILT?[/quote]

You still don’t get it, X. The statistic you quoted tells me that about half of the false convictions in the United States are blacks. Well blacks are also about half the convictions, period! This is EXACTLY what you would expect to find if you sought to prove that there was NO racism. If blacks were half the total convictions but made up 80% of the discovered false convictions, then you’d have a point.

Otherwise, your claim that blacks are being falsely convicted depends on the assumption that there are many more false convictions that have not yet been discovered. That may be true, but it is pure speculation at this point. I’m not sure why you don’t understand this point.

If you don’t believe me, then tell me what statistic would prove, in your mind, that blacks were NOT being falsely accused more than non-blacks. What ratio would convince you that blacks are being falsely accused with the same frequency as non-blacks?

And, again, we must take into account the small sample size. 201 false convictions out of over a million is not enough data. I mean, if you found only three false convictions and two of them happened to be black guys, you can’t throw your hands up and say that blacks are falsely convicted in this country more than non-blacks. To do so would be akin to flipping a coin three times, noting heads twice, and concluding that the coin tends to flip heads more than tails.

50

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

Black people are clearly wrongly convicted in greater numbers, but I would be interested to see if blacks are being wrongly convicted at a greater RATE than other races.

in other words, if the current prison population is made up of x% blacks, y% whites and z% others, then I would expect that of all the people wrongly convicted x% are black, y% are white and z% are others. If that is NOT the case, and if in fact out of the total wrongly convicted population black people make up some percentage greater than x then yes, I would say black people are being wrongly convicted at a greater rate. but short of that I remain skeptical.[/quote]

They haven’t even identified who all of the people are who have been wrongly jailed. That makes the population itself questionable as a whole so how would this relation help you at all if it is suddenly changing due to the DNA testing?

51

[quote]eic wrote:

You still don’t get it, X. The statistic you quoted tells me that about half of the false convictions in the United States are blacks. Well blacks are also about half the convictions, period! This is EXACTLY what you would expect to find if you sought to prove that there was NO racism. If blacks were half the total convictions but made up 80% of the discovered false convictions, then you’d have a point. [/quote]

You are claiming an acceptable margin of error when dealing with people’s lives…some of which were on death row. I am glad you are comfortable with that. A couple of people here and there would be “expected” as opposed to over one hundred of a single race all found within one to two years of research of the cases. These aren’t faulty car parts we are talking about here and I doubt you would be ok with these numbers if you were one of the ones in jail right now for something you hadn’t done.

No, it is not ok that this many people of any color have been found to be innocent after spending several years in jail. How does this not point to problems with our judicial system?

[quote]

Otherwise, your claim that blacks are being falsely convicted depends on the assumption that there are many more false convictions that have not yet been discovered. That may be true, but it is pure speculation at this point. I’m not sure why you don’t understand this point. [/quote]

Because you have no point. The last stat I’ve read has the number of innocents at over 220. That means the number IS growing and you would have to be pretty naive to think that they are done finding all of the people wrongly jailed.

[quote]
If you don’t believe me, then tell me what statistic would prove, in your mind, that blacks were NOT being falsely accused more than non-blacks. What ratio would convince you that blacks are being falsely accused with the same
frequency as non-blacks? [/quote]

I am not interested in ratios. Those ratios don’t tell me what percentage of whites committed crimes but were not arrested and jailed making those stats useless in this regard.

This has been explained to you. Why do you think I am steps behind you?

Again, so you finally understand the point, without any reliable info on all people who commit crimes and how that relates to the number being jailed as a result, ratios are useless data if only focusing in on those already in jail when the goal is to show a bias in regards to the consequences of crimes by certain races.

52

[quote]eic wrote:
Professor X wrote:

The numbers don’t lie…which is why your statement that it does not show blacks are being falsely sentenced more is itself FALSE.

Of course it shows this. They ARE being sentenced falsely more than other races and the relation to the number of convicts does not erase this. In fact, if anything, it should make people question whether ALL of those blacks in jail deserve to be there. Clearly, they don’t since so many are being found innocent and the DNA charity is just getting started.

Also, as stated before, if blacks and other races are committing similar crimes but blacks are more likely to get arrested for it and found guilty, it should make you question whether blacks are even committing more crimes to the degree stats have implied in the past.

Why doesn’t this info make you question these things? Why insist that the statistics for crime rates are accurately showing GUILT?

You still don’t get it, X. The statistic you quoted tells me that about half of the false convictions in the United States are blacks. Well blacks are also about half the convictions, period! This is EXACTLY what you would expect to find if you sought to prove that there was NO racism. If blacks were half the total convictions but made up 80% of the discovered false convictions, then you’d have a point.

Otherwise, your claim that blacks are being falsely convicted depends on the assumption that there are many more false convictions that have not yet been discovered. That may be true, but it is pure speculation at this point. I’m not sure why you don’t understand this point.

If you don’t believe me, then tell me what statistic would prove, in your mind, that blacks were NOT being falsely accused more than non-blacks. What ratio would convince you that blacks are being falsely accused with the same frequency as non-blacks?

And, again, we must take into account the small sample size. 201 false convictions out of over a million is not enough data. I mean, if you found only three false convictions and two of them happened to be black guys, you can’t throw your hands up and say that blacks are falsely convicted in this country more than non-blacks. To do so would be akin to flipping a coin three times, noting heads twice, and concluding that the coin tends to flip heads more than tails. [/quote]

Yes, MORE blacks than nonblacks are being falsely accused. PERIOD. I guarantee you someone that has been falseley accused doesn’t give a flip what percentage they are in. Why does it matter what percentage of the prison population is black? It does not. These are people that are NOT GUILTY and have had their entire lives destroyed because of a wrongful conviction and the fact that they are half of the wrongful convictions shows the stereotyping and prejudice that is taking place.

EIC you are from Nebraska 4.4% black population of 1.8 million people. Prof. is from Texas with a 11.9% black population of 24 million people. There are more blacks in Texas than there are people in your state. Have you ever been out of your white state? If you have ever spent anytime in a large city you can clearly see the difference in police behavior in a white vs. black neighborhoods. This leads to MORE false arrests of black people than should be if it was a random accidental occurrence.

53

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
The statistic does NOT need to match up with the number of minorities in jail. Again, the ONLY conclusion one can draw from the info provided is that blacks are wrongly accused and sent to jail for years more than any other race.

I think a more useful statistic would be the wrongful conviction rate as a percentage of the total incarceration rate for a particular race.

In other words, if X white guys are incarcerated, what percentage of X were incarcerated wrongfully. If Y black guys are incarcerated, what percentage wrongfully. Then, compare the two wrongful incarceration rates. That might be more interesting. [/quote]

Agreed. There are mathematical means to tease the data rather than just speculation.

54

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The statistic does NOT need to match up with the number of minorities in jail. Again, the ONLY conclusion one can draw from the info provided is that blacks are wrongly accused and sent to jail for years more than any other race.

I think a more useful statistic would be the wrongful conviction rate as a percentage of the total incarceration rate for a particular race.

In other words, if X white guys are incarcerated, what percentage of X were incarcerated wrongfully. If Y black guys are incarcerated, what percentage wrongfully. Then, compare the two wrongful incarceration rates. That might be more interesting.

Agreed. There are mathematical means to tease the data rather than just speculation.[/quote]

Again, since that does NOT show the numbers of “non blacks” who committed crimes but were NOT arrested for it or jailed, the data is useless.
You would have to assume that all races are arrested and jailed equally for the number of people in jail to matter in the first place. Do you actually believe this to be the case?

55

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
The statistic does NOT need to match up with the number of minorities in jail. Again, the ONLY conclusion one can draw from the info provided is that blacks are wrongly accused and sent to jail for years more than any other race.

I think a more useful statistic would be the wrongful conviction rate as a percentage of the total incarceration rate for a particular race.

In other words, if X white guys are incarcerated, what percentage of X were incarcerated wrongfully. If Y black guys are incarcerated, what percentage wrongfully. Then, compare the two wrongful incarceration rates. That might be more interesting.

Agreed. There are mathematical means to tease the data rather than just speculation.

Again, since that does NOT show the numbers of “non blacks” who committed crimes but were NOT arrested for it or jailed, the data is useless.
You would have to assume that all races are arrested and jailed equally for the number of people in jail to matter in the first place. Do you actually believe this to be the case?

[/quote]

No. I believe more blacks are arrested than whites. The question is, are the cops racist or not? If the cops are racist, then we need some metric of that besides who they’re arresting, because the black population may have a higher percentage of criminals than whites. With the percentage of whites shrinking in most urban police forces, it gets increasingly hard to blame incarceration rates for individual racial groups on racist arresting.

56

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
No. I believe more blacks are arrested than whites. The question is, are the cops racist or not? If the cops are racist, then we need some metric of that besides who they’re arresting, because the black population may have a higher percentage of criminals than whites. With the percentage of whites shrinking in most urban police forces, it gets increasingly hard to blame incarceration rates for individual racial groups on racist arresting.
[/quote]

Institutionalized racism is a concept I have tried several times to get you and others to understand in the political forum. It seems the concept is still not accepted or understood.

A cop could very well not be racist himself and still act in ways that promote “institutionalized racism”…like racial profiling leading to ignoring those of other races who are also committing crimes leading to those of one particular race to be arrested in majority even if the actual criminal acts are not increased in that group as a whole.

57

I think Barack Obama’s nomination may make your job much more difficult from here on.

[quote]
A cop could very well not be racist himself and still act in ways that promote “institutionalized racism”…like racial profiling leading to ignoring those of other races who are also committing crimes leading to those of one particular race to be arrested in majority even if the actual criminal acts are not increased in that group as a whole.[/quote]

Agreed. But he’s going to form his own opinion based on his own experiences with a particular race whether or not there’s any department policy. If he sees more blacks or whites committing crimes than another race, he’s less likely to give an individual the benefit of the doubt because of his race. That’s just how people are.

58

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

Institutionalized racism is a concept I have tried several times to get you and others to understand in the political forum. It seems the concept is still not accepted or understood.

I think Barack Obama’s nomination may make your job much more difficult from here on.

A cop could very well not be racist himself and still act in ways that promote “institutionalized racism”…like racial profiling leading to ignoring those of other races who are also committing crimes leading to those of one particular race to be arrested in majority even if the actual criminal acts are not increased in that group as a whole.

Agreed. But he’s going to form his own opinion based on his own experiences with a particular race whether or not there’s any department policy. If he sees more blacks or whites committing crimes than another race, he’s less likely to give an individual the benefit of the doubt because of his race. That’s just how people are.

[/quote]

Then you agree.

Whether the cop can be labeled as a racist himself is irrelevant. It doesn’t change the fact that police activity in majority black neighborhoods is far different than in majority white neighborhoods. That alone should make most question whether all of those blacks were somehow committing so many more crimes than everyone else…as opposed to cops simply focusing on and arresting more blacks while ignoring other racial groups.

Racial profiling alone could account for much of what we are discussing here.

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[quote]That alone should make most question whether all of those blacks were somehow committing so many more crimes than everyone else…as opposed to cops simply focusing on and arresting more blacks while ignoring other racial groups.
[/quote]

I don’t see how. If cops run into more blacks or whites committing crimes, they’re likely to develop their own prejudices even if they, themselves, are of that particular race. There’s little that can be done about that. And in that case, their prejudices will reflect reality.

Well, how widespread is it? The LAPD doesn’t do any, the cops are majority Mexican, yet you still see roughly the same arrest rates of Mexicans here as you do anywhere else. Different populations have different rates of crime.

60

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

I don’t see how. If cops run into more blacks or whites committing crimes, they’re likely to develop their own prejudices even if they, themselves, are of that particular race. There’s little that can be done about that. And in that case, their prejudices will reflect reality. [/quote]

What? You don’t see how increased police presence and aggressive action in one community over another could lead to more arrests (guilty or innocent) as opposed to the lesser presence and lesser aggressive action in majority white neighborhoods?

How could you not see this?

[quote]

Racial profiling alone could account for much of what we are discussing here.

Well, how widespread is it? The LAPD doesn’t do any, the cops are majority Mexican, yet you still see roughly the same arrest rates of Mexicans here as you do anywhere else. Different populations have different rates of crime. [/quote]

Hold up, you just wrote that personal bias can affect judgment…but now you claim that racial profiling doesn’t exist in LA?

You do realize that even if the department itself doesn’t make a statement of enforcing it that individual cops can still act in that way?