Thanks for this, interesting stuff
This is also an interesting study of a young men with genetic disorder leading to increased global aromatization. Serum E2 increased drastically after an injection of 250 mg T.
Of course not applicable to ‘normal’ men on TRT but again the point I want to make is solely that tissue E2 is reflected in serum E2, not 1:1, not perfectly but it is.
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Estradiol serum level in men isn’t driving tissue action, it’s merely REFLECTING tissue aromatization. This is not the same as the testes producing testosterone that winds up directly in the serum. It is two totally different mechanisms. Only 15% of circulating E2 is made in the testes so even then testicular E2 is not driving much tissue action. The INTRATESTICULAR E2 levels are enormous. This is to aid in spermatogenesis, etc.
In men on TRT, zero estradiol is made from the testes.
@dbossa are you able to message me?
His email is in his bio
See it now thanks lol
Yes thats correct, i am not denying this. Its still about T to E balance. And serum E2 reflects tissue E2 to some degree.
Let me ask you some question:
- Why do young and old men differently respond to a certain T dose with regards to aromatization?
- And what impact does the higher aromatization in older men play in the setting of TRT?
- Clomiphene alters T and E. Why do many men struggle on high clomiphene doses? Is it due to the estrogenic action of zuclomiphene resulting in an T to E imbalance?
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@johann77 Your contribution to the forum is priceless and you are contributing in a polite way to fight the new trend of running supra physiological levels of everything. All my respect for your time and effort spent here.
Sorry Danny but the science behind the irrelevance of serum E2 vs tissue aromatization is weak to say the least.
We could say the same thing about all the sex hormones, hence we shouldn’t check testosterone and DHT either.
There’s no way at the moment to know exactly in what degree the serum sex hormones are affecting all tissues.
Some studies have been done with DHT and scalp levels, in a context of AGA. And yes balding scalps were having higher concentration of DHT, disregarding the amount of DHT in the serum.
But you understand that running such tests on all the tissues for the normal people is basically impossible.
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So my question is I am taking HCG mono therapy. It was working well for me for like 4 months I felt the best I ever did. But after sometimes things changed I take 500i.u EOD and that’s all. With that dosage my TT is 940 and my freeT is 23 so how do I boot my freeT so I can get it al least to 30 oh and my E2 is 53 so you think my errection proablems and lack of libido is not due to my E2?
I’m so lost so should we pay attention to our E2 levels or no??
I have so lunch a hard time with keeping up with the debates sometimes?
You are on HCG monotherapy. That’s a totally different thing than injecting testosterone. It has it’s own sides to deal with and you shouldn’t be comparing what you are doing to people on Testosterone. There’s a reason no one here stays on HCG monotherapy. It’s because it’s just not the best way to do TRT. Having been a member here since 2017 I’m sure you understand all of that.
As far as testing Estrogen levels… Unless you are are using an AI what good does it do besides tell you where a level is at that second on that specific day? Guys on Testosterone are looking to find the lowest dose that makes them feel how they want. You either raise your T dose or lower it. That’s all there is to it. Shooting for a set Estrogen level before you even know where you feel best at is stupid and will just mentally impair your ability to ever feel as good as you could.
For the record I’m not necessarily against testing E2 but I am 100% against using that number to base your protocol on if you haven’t reached “feeling optimal” yet. There’s a certain type of person that is prone to see a certain number and automatically blame it as the reason they have never felt good on TRT. Then the other folks of the same mentality here will chime and they’ll circle-jerk themselves into never experiencing feeling good. It’s always that crew who never quite get there but love to give advice to others on what to do.
Probably not. Upping your dose would give you more free T.
It’s weak to say the least because your capacity to understand the studies is severely lacking. To the rest of us that do understand it, it’s a rather simple concept. The fact that you are even comparing serum levels of testosterone and estradiol demonstrates your sheer ignorance on the subject. They work completely different from each other. Testosterone is transported in the serum to the tissue. We can easily measure serum levels of T because serum is the transport. T is converted to E2 IN the tissue. This is the part you don’t get, regardless of how often I explain it. Only a tiny portion seeps back into the serum. You’re taking a measurement of a drop from a leaky bucket to determine how much is in the bucket. That’s a lesson in futility. E2 serum measurements for men on TRT are absolutely and unequivocally pointless once you understand the mechanisms behind it. Read the damn research, it’s all there. To say the evidence is weak further solidifies your position of ignorance and are misleading the people trying to learn.
Again, why I left this forum. It’s like talking to a wall with half the people here.
From what I can tell brother, it looks like you’re still here! Lol
I’m messing with you man…
One provocative thought though Danny. You are talking to a brick wall with some guys. That’s never going to change.
You don’t seem to understand one small concept that is completely driving a lot of the resistance that you meet brother. You never really self evaluate. I’m not talking about your science or your data. I know that you obsess over every minute detail of that. I’m talking about your person. I can’t say it more plainly than this brother, and I mean this in all sincerity in being truthful to you.
You come off as an arrogant dickhead.
You talk to people like they are idiots man and that’s NEVER going to allow you reach the masses. It’s sad because you have so much to give to help these guys, but a lot of them will never really hear what you have to teach. It’s hard for people to look past.
To be perfectly fair, what you said above may well be true. I have no idea. Whether or not it’s the truth is irrelevant. It’s disrespectful and that’s what people can’t see past. I’m not saying that you should sugar coat everything you type brother, and I know you get frustrated dealing with the same arguments over and over…What I am saying is that you should learn to pick your battles. If someone doesn’t want to agree with you, give them the space to to take that liberty. Don’t bash them over the head with your knowledge. Post the facts and let your results speak for themselves.
A stubborn horse can’t be driven, he can only be led…and even then he can’t be made to drink, even if you lead him to fresh water.
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Seriously?
This is the problem with people today.
Too many people get their feelings hurt.
The truth is absolutely relevant!
@dbossa is passionate about people being healthy, because he cares.
You snowflakes need to put your big boy pants on.
Ha! You went full rage as usual.
I even said that that’s true for DHT, because it has been studied for AGA.
But, since it’s impossible for the common people to test the tissue aromatization, I was curious to see what are the studies regarding E2, because the one I’ve seen are weak.
Care to send some link?
Also, you didn’t reply to @johann77
Lol. I completely agree with you that people are way too sensitive, but that doesn’t give anyone the right to be an asshole to others.
That’s the OTHER big problem today. People who have lost ALL respect for their fellow man.
My post had nothing to do with anyone getting their feelings hurt. If anything, it was Danny who got his feelings hurt because someone didn’t agree with him and dared to argue a different point of view.
And it sounds like you got your feelings hurt a little too because I said he was disrespectful.
And btw, you kind of missed the point and took my quote completely out of context.
The truth is irrelevant concerning whether you form your words to try and and argue a point, or you shape them to try and “cut down” someone else. One method has a chance at teaching someone. The other just reveals a childish behavior. It reminds me of elementary school.
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Actually,
That last post by @dbossa was pretty tame compared to some others he’s posted. Did you notice that he was blunt, and didn’t resort to ad hominims?
He was straight to the point, without using personal attacks. He attacked the argument, and the poster’s lack of knowledge. Calling someone ignorant on a specific subject, isn’t a personal attack.
And no, nobody hurt my feelings. I’ve developed a pretty thick skin.
You guys all must have high E2 issues, to be this offended.*
*Every issue is due to high E2, right?
Lmao! Again, I agree with you. That was pretty tame compared to some of his other lashings out, but he did throw out a direct insult all the same.
That’s basically saying “you’re stupid”.
How many of my posts have you ever read? I ask because you seem to be making an assumption that I’m on a specific side of the E2 debate. I’ve been of the same opinion that @dbossa preaches since before he started seriously pushing it here.
I’ve never had anything but agreement with the message, it’s the lack of respect of the messenger that has always been an issue.
It doesn’t offend me at all mind you, I’ve got some pretty thick skin myself. I guess growing up had that effect. It sincerely disappoints me because I believe that Danny could help WAY more people than he has to feel their best. But, because he does lash out, and leaves the forum 20 times a year, he drives away 2 people for every one he helps.
I think his message can really be a game changer for the masses, not just the tiny corner of the population that he’s able to reach now.
Oh and just to kind of make my point (and I may be talking out of my ass here so @dbossa can correct this if it’s wrong), but…
Ask Danny why he and his group parted ways with Nichols? If I’m not mistaken, his methodology is the same and his opinions are the same regarding TRT and E2 control/lack of. It’s not the message that differed. It’s the fact that Nichols has an attitude problem and has a tendency to fly off the handle.
@bmbrady77 take a look at the situation as a whole. I provided a video by a highly respected urologist who has done more research into the role of estradiol than anyone I know. We did the entire video using laymen’s terms to absolutely ensure everyone and their children could understand it. We couldn’t possibly dumb it down anymore and if you watched the video you’ll probably agree. Then we provided an entire Google Drive full of the research to demonstrate and validate everything that he was saying. The “Role of Estradiol in Men” alone is GOLD. If you care to read just one, read it. We do all this, only for someone to say the research they’ve seen is weak at best. Clearly they did not look at a single thing we’ve provided. So, what…? We now have to re-explain everything again? How many times do we need to do this? If I provide a laymen’s terms video, with all research provided, but the guys with blinders on refuse to look at any of it and then make statements that are in direct contradiction to all of it, I can’t participate here, which is why I left. I’m doing WAY more work in my own Facebook group as the vast majority of the members were open minded enough to learn and they pass on the knowledge to the new members who join. I have not seen any other place where the members are doing as well as ours… not even close. This is why I choose to focus my time there instead of here.
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