Why Doesn't God Communicate With Us Anymore?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
361

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Better we meet them on their own terms, or just forget it all together.

[/quote]

The latter is probably the best choice. Aside from a little fun and entertainment, It really is fruitless to argue faith vs. proof when you have faith and the other doesn’t have proof.

Hence my disappearance from this once Capp ran his course with it.

Thing is, I still have faith. He exhausted the limits of his ability to prove.

One of the main fallacies of reason in this entire mismatch is the assumption that faith and proof are diametric ends of a continuum. They are not. They are wholly separate and unrelated.

Some people just can’t separate the two.

[/quote]

Very well said. How does one go about proving faith? Much less over an Internet message board. In fact, it’s comical. And I’m laughing at both sides here. Christians, That’s why it’s called “faith”. As it says in the Bible,

Hebrews:

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

If someone really wants to share my experiences in faith and what I have to say they’ll pm me. And the same goes for every other Christian on the board. If you think that you’re furthering God’s kingdom by fighting with atheists on T Nation think again (and I’m preaching to myself as well). While you may be sincere, you will be no more effective than the atheists are at pulling you away from God. Each side is only guaranteed a loss and there are no exceptions.

If an atheist is going to change it will not come from any of us spouting scripture, or other religious dogma on T Nation. It will come from their own journey, their own suffering and ultimately their own free will.

[/quote]

Aren’t you the conqueror of “logical fallacies”. Hmmm.[/quote]

That’s what I did for you, yes. And to date you have still not made much sense. But that’s what you do. You throw stones, you incite, but not much else.

When I mention atheists that’s exactly who I am talking about. Can’t follow that much? Or, is this part of your twisting and turning game? Yeah, most likely. So YOU now imply that I am lumping agnostics with atheists? Weak, but that’s what you are.

And I have seen your suffering all over this board. Cheating on your wife, alcoholism, porn addiction. You are in pain, yet you continue to run.

362

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
You guys can blow ALL the smoke and bend the mirrors any way you want, but it STILL doesn’t change the SELF ADMITTED FACT that MAN is the source of ALL of the content of your religion.

You CANNOT say for certainty WHAT inspired a person two thousand years ago. Greed or divine inspiration (or delusion…) You cannot say for sure. No matter HOW much you twist it!

While you BELIEVE they were “divinely inspired”, you cannot PROVE it! Scriptures written by MEN are not PROOF!

So because I have the fortune to not have been brainwashed from an early age, have a critical mind and mature boundary function that allows me to sniff BULLSHIT when it is presented to me, that makes me SWINE?

Fine by me. I assure you I am perfectly content to “wallow in my filth” as I’m sure you are implying. At least I have the freedom to think for myself and understand that my actions and decisions have consequences that reach far beyond saying ten “hail Marys” and five “our fathers” (or whatever form of “forgiveness” you people delude yourselves into thinking is OK). My mission is clear, my conscience is clean and I am walking MY path with integrity.

For the record, I don’t CARE what you believe - but when you stoop to calling ME “swine” because your beliefs don’t meet my burden of proof, THAT’S what opens the door for me to go open season on your ass. Do you see me making fun of Hindu’s? Or Buddhists? NO! Why not? Because they don’t cram their religion down my throat, knock on my fucking door, or go around calling me a sinner for having a different belief.

I am successful, meet my obligations with my family and children and have my life together more than MOST people… But I’m SWINE… Because I don’t believe what YOU believe (any you can’t prove that you’re beliefs are real). Gotcha. I’ll leave you judgmental assholes to continue on with your miserable little lives then.[/quote]

WOW! You do realize that many of science’s “theories” are also unprovable? We can provide PROOF. But that proof will not PROVE anything. There will always be loopholes and “what ifs”.[/quote]

That’s not quite fair. A theory is just that, a theory. Theories aren’t facts.

If there is evidence for Christianity beyond “faith”, you and every other Christian should be compelled to offer it. If there isn’t, you and every other Christian should be compelled to admit your belief rests on faith. I think that would render any debate moot. Agree?[/quote]

Yes there is and I offered some evidence.

Mind you Im not a Biblical scholar so I really can’t address the issue in as much depth as I would like. But I will do my best, and as always, if I dont have an answer, someone else does, and I will find it for you.

:slight_smile:

363

I think the BIGGEST problem I have with Christianity is the sense of ENTITLEMENT that comes along with it: OUR “God” is the TRUE “God” and the ONLY “God” and if you don’t think so, you are sinner, you are swine and you are going to burn in HELL. You put YOUR religion BEFORE other people rights to freedom and you RUTHLESSLY PERSECUTE those who don’t conform.

A few pages back, I listed a nice long post about atrocities and wars waged in the name of your “God”. And instead of even acknowledging that “hey, that was FUCKED UP that we did that”, you pass the buck - it wasn’t OUR particular branch. You say that it isn’t like that anymore. “that’s Christianity’s DISTANT past”, right? Well, my “Christian friends” the scars on my back say otherwise. My mother’s second husband used every method he could THINK of to “beat the sin out of me” as he lovingly referred to our “sessions” that went WELL beyond child abuse and would more accurately be described as torture.

He would take me down to the basement, get his bible out and read scripture while he attempted to “cast the demons away”. Beating me in the name of Jesus Christ OVER AND OVER FOR YEARS. I suppose in retrospect I should be GRATEFUL that he didn’t burn me alive. You see, I tried to convince myself that “he was just fucked up” or that it was an anomaly or just a “one time thing”. But then I started reading about history. I learned about the Crusades and the VIOLENT history that you Christians don’t talk about. Sweep it under the rug. Just transfer the pedophile priest to a different parish so he can fuck MORE boys in the ass. After all, you just have to “confess your sins” and ALL is forgiven. Right?

I arrived at the inevitable conclusion that your religion doesn’t help people, it hurts them. You preach a fucking LIE. Your HYPOCRISY is incredible! Christianity gives it’s members the JUSTIFICATION to KILL, MAIM and HARM other people. It ENABLES sadistic and criminal behavior. It PROTECTS PEDOPHILES!!!

I mean how much lower can you get? And you have the balls to sit there on your high horse and tell me I’M a SINNER? I HATE your fucking religion and every thing it stands for. It’s a tragedy that it wasn’t stamped out in it’s infancy. And you people feel proud to go around calling yourselves “good Christians”? LOL - I’d have more respect for you if you went around calling yourself a “good Nazi”. At least you would have KILLED less people.

So what do you “good Christians” have to say about all the people who have been HURT in the name of your religion? Past and present. Where’s the fucking justification for that?

Forbes, Which chapter and verse gives Christians the “OK” to hurt other people?

364

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Deuteronomy 17:12

You should not let a sorceress live. Exodus 22:17

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. Leviticus 20:13

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. Leviticus 20:27

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. Leviticus 21:9

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. Exodus 22:19

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. Chronicles 15:12-13

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Deuteronomy 13:13-19

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. Isaiah 14:21

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all â?? old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” Ezekiel 9:5-7

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. Leviticus 26:21-22

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. Isaiah 13:15-18

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 35:7-9

Your “LORD” sounds like a really great guy.

365

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Deuteronomy 17:12

You should not let a sorceress live. Exodus 22:17

If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. Leviticus 20:13

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. Leviticus 20:27

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. Leviticus 20:10

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. Leviticus 21:9

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. Exodus 22:19

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. Chronicles 15:12-13

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Deuteronomy 13:13-19

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Deuteronomy 13:7-12

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. Isaiah 14:21

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. Jeremiah 48:10

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all â?? old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple.” So they began by killing the seventy leaders. “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.” Ezekiel 9:5-7

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. Leviticus 26:21-22

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. Isaiah 13:15-18

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. Ezekiel 35:7-9

Your “LORD” sounds like a really great guy. [/quote]

All of these are Old Testament commands, which have been nailed to the cross. We are now under the new Testament, which speaks of turning your other cheek when slapped on the other.

Yes, there was a time when these things were commanded. What is your point? They aren’t any longer.

All those who killed in the “name” of God, did not do it for him. I have said it before:

When the text says nothing about killing for the sake of God, yet someone adds text that says its ok, who’s abusing who? Is the author the sociopath, or the person?

Frankly, people will twist scripture to meet their wants and evil desires.

Show me where in the New Testament where it commands us to kill.

366

How long have your been under the New Testament?

367

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

You really got offended by the “die in a fire” remark, huh? Allow me to apologize for that. I’m sincerely sorry.

[/quote]

Nah. In fact, I wouldn’t expect anything less.

You still gay?

368

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
How long have your been under the New Testament?[/quote]Since the temple veil was rent from top to bottom at the death of the promised Messiah opening the holy of holies to all would enter by His blood. It was sealed by His resurrection whereby he defeated death and the grave. We are no longer under a theocracy and Christ’s kingdom is not of this world. The sins you cite are indeed deathworthy, but are merely symptoms of the living death of separation from God. Those who die in them will die indeed.

369

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

You really got offended by the “die in a fire” remark, huh? Allow me to apologize for that. I’m sincerely sorry.

[/quote]

Nah. In fact, I wouldn’t expect anything less.

You still gay?
[/quote]

With the exception of having a girlfriend and enjoying sex with her, yes. And by yes I mean no, not really. But yes.

370

Also, way to avoid my points, Skywalker.

371

[quote]forbes wrote:
WOW! You do realize that many of science’s “theories” are also unprovable? We can provide PROOF. But that proof will not PROVE anything. There will always be loopholes and “what ifs”.[/quote]

You do realize that all of science’s “theories” are based on existing evidence, right?

372

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Also, way to avoid my points, Skywalker.[/quote]

You don’t have any. You have problems with people and what they have done.

Those are your own to address.

373

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Also, way to avoid my points, Skywalker.[/quote]

You don’t have any. You have problems with people and what they have done.

Those are your own to address.

[/quote]

Ah. The sound of running away.

374

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
How long have your been under the New Testament?[/quote]

Since Christ’s crucifixion.

375

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
You guys either totally misunderstand me or just like to attack strawmen.

Capped never said “Faith is stupid.”

Capped said “Faith in stupid things is stupid”

[/quote]

And, how do we decide what is stupid things?[/quote]

Fallen sinful man logic.[/quote]

What are you talking about?

376

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
WOW! You do realize that many of science’s “theories” are also unprovable? We can provide PROOF. But that proof will not PROVE anything. There will always be loopholes and “what ifs”.[/quote]

You do realize that all of science’s “theories” are based on existing evidence, right?[/quote]

Evidence is subjective.

For something to be a theory, or beyond, it must be observable and testable. If not, it will always remain a guess based on one’s presuppositions.

377

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Also, way to avoid my points, Skywalker.[/quote]

You don’t have any. You have problems with people and what they have done.

Those are your own to address.

[/quote]

Ah. The sound of running away.[/quote]

Thats not running away. Thats knowing the difference.

378

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I think the BIGGEST problem I have with Christianity is the sense of ENTITLEMENT that comes along with it: OUR ‘God’ is the TRUE ‘God’ and the ONLY ‘God’ and if you don’t think so, you are sinner, you are swine and you are going to burn in HELL. You put YOUR religion BEFORE other people rights to freedom and you RUTHLESSLY PERSECUTE those who don’t conform.

A few pages back, I listed a nice long post about atrocities and wars waged in the name of your ‘God’. And instead of even acknowledging that ‘hey, that was FUCKED UP that we did that’, you pass the buck - it wasn’t OUR particular branch. You say that it isn’t like that anymore. ‘that’s Christianity’s DISTANT past’, right? Well, my ‘Christian friends’ the scars on my back say otherwise. My mother’s second husband used every method he could THINK of to ‘beat the sin out of me’ as he lovingly referred to our ‘sessions’ that went WELL beyond child abuse and would more accurately be described as torture.

He would take me down to the basement, get his bible out and read scripture while he attempted to ‘cast the demons away’. Beating me in the name of Jesus Christ OVER AND OVER FOR YEARS. I suppose in retrospect I should be GRATEFUL that he didn’t burn me alive. You see, I tried to convince myself that ‘he was just fucked up’ or that it was an anomaly or just a ‘one time thing’. But then I started reading about history. I learned about the Crusades and the VIOLENT history that you Christians don’t talk about. Sweep it under the rug. Just transfer the pedophile priest to a different parish so he can fuck MORE boys in the ass. After all, you just have to “confess your sins” and ALL is forgiven. Right?

I arrived at the inevitable conclusion that your religion doesn’t help people, it hurts them. You preach a fucking LIE. Your HYPOCRISY is incredible! Christianity gives it’s members the JUSTIFICATION to KILL, MAIM and HARM other people. It ENABLES sadistic and criminal behavior. It PROTECTS PEDOPHILES!!!

I mean how much lower can you get? And you have the balls to sit there on your high horse and tell me I’M a SINNER? I HATE your fucking religion and every thing it stands for. It’s a tragedy that it wasn’t stamped out in it’s infancy. And you people feel proud to go around calling yourselves “good Christians”? LOL - I’d have more respect for you if you went around calling yourself a “good Nazi”. At least you would have KILLED less people.

So what do you “good Christians” have to say about all the people who have been HURT in the name of your religion? Past and present. Where’s the fucking justification for that?

Forbes, Which chapter and verse gives Christians the “OK” to hurt other people? [/quote]

AC,

Sorry you had those experiences of Christianity. I can understand your position and I, for one, feel you’re right. Unlike you, I was raised a Christian under the best of circumstances…within a real Mr. and Mrs. Cleaver type of family. Went to church regularly and Bible School in the summer, but it was all presented in a calm, fun way and never pushed. Amidst all this love, when the pastor would get to the part about ONLY Christians would be saved and everyone else was wrong, I would just think "HUH??? But you just told us God is Love and mankind is His creation and we are all His beloved sons and daughters…and now you say ALL those people on the other side of the world are doomed??? Why would God create doomed people if He was Love? Intuitively, as a kid, I knew something was wrong with that idea and I never bought into it. Like you, I despise that notion and can only think of it as spiritual immaturity. Hopefully, one that will eventually be outgrown as people become mature in their spiritual life.

The story, life and experience of the magnificant risen Christ is available to all mankind…because it is the story of Divinity within the individual man/woman/life. This need not take on the Christian vernacular because Divinity within self is also available in other religions as well. Christianity doesn’t own all the rights to Divinity, although clearly there are a lot of Christians who think they do. And God is not limited to one religion either, He is in all of them.

379

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Better we meet them on their own terms, or just forget it all together.

[/quote]

The latter is probably the best choice. Aside from a little fun and entertainment, It really is fruitless to argue faith vs. proof when you have faith and the other doesn’t have proof.

Hence my disappearance from this once Capp ran his course with it.

Thing is, I still have faith. He exhausted the limits of his ability to prove.

One of the main fallacies of reason in this entire mismatch is the assumption that faith and proof are diametric ends of a continuum. They are not. They are wholly separate and unrelated.

Some people just can’t separate the two.

[/quote]

You’re a bright guy, and that was…meh, kinda clever.

But it would be accurate if you’d say, you have your faith, and no proof.

I’m not sure the “other” doesn’t have “proof” if you consider “evidence of absence”. I can use up all the space in this thread listing “evidence of absence” while you’d be hard pressed to list uncontroverted evidence in support of your faith.

Is that an unfair statement?[/quote]

Yes. It is unfair, as it missed the distinction between faith and proof. You can present all of the proof in the physical universe that God does not exist within the physical universe, as God very well should not.

Faith addresses the existence of something outside of what is known or provable.

Thats why it is faith.

Evidence of absence is somewhat redundant when you are trying to prove the existence of a supernatural being using physical proof. It’s not supposed to be there in the first place.

Even if the newer string theories and multi-verse theories are proven to be true of the physical universe, they can not and aren’t intended to prove or disprove the existence of God, a god, or any concept of God. They are designed to prove the origin of the natural universe, not disprove the existence of something outside of it.

[/quote]

I get what you’re saying and I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree.

It’s somewhat disingenuous to back away from a burden of proof on the basis that the subject is “supernatural” in light of the claims that the “supernatural” has manifested in this world. For example, the claim that Jesus was God incarnate is a claim that is controverted even among those alive at the time, and not “decided” (actually, "claimed) until a few hundred years after his death. That’s just one example. Another would be “papal infallibility” and the Pope’s status as God’s representative on Earth. Given the track record of certain Popes, I’d say that claim is spurious to all.

I don’t like physical arguments to prove or disprove God. I am enamored with physics and theoretical physics though, but even if we do “unlock the universe” and explain “everything”, in my mind such a solution would not preclude God.

I think it’s perfectly satisfactory to admit your belief is based upon faith alone, and I think that it is.

380

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Better we meet them on their own terms, or just forget it all together.

[/quote]

The latter is probably the best choice. Aside from a little fun and entertainment, It really is fruitless to argue faith vs. proof when you have faith and the other doesn’t have proof.

Hence my disappearance from this once Capp ran his course with it.

Thing is, I still have faith. He exhausted the limits of his ability to prove.

One of the main fallacies of reason in this entire mismatch is the assumption that faith and proof are diametric ends of a continuum. They are not. They are wholly separate and unrelated.

Some people just can’t separate the two.

[/quote]

Very well said. How does one go about proving faith? Much less over an Internet message board. In fact, it’s comical. And I’m laughing at both sides here. Christians, That’s why it’s called “faith”. As it says in the Bible,

Hebrews:

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

If someone really wants to share my experiences in faith and what I have to say they’ll pm me. And the same goes for every other Christian on the board. If you think that you’re furthering God’s kingdom by fighting with atheists on T Nation think again (and I’m preaching to myself as well). While you may be sincere, you will be no more effective than the atheists are at pulling you away from God. Each side is only guaranteed a loss and there are no exceptions.

If an atheist is going to change it will not come from any of us spouting scripture, or other religious dogma on T Nation. It will come from their own journey, their own suffering and ultimately their own free will.

[/quote]

Aren’t you the conqueror of “logical fallacies”. Hmmm.[/quote]

That’s what I did for you, yes. And to date you have still not made much sense. But that’s what you do. You throw stones, you incite, but not much else.

When I mention atheists that’s exactly who I am talking about. Can’t follow that much? Or, is this part of your twisting and turning game? Yeah, most likely. So YOU now imply that I am lumping agnostics with atheists? Weak, but that’s what you are.

And I have seen your suffering all over this board. Cheating on your wife, alcoholism, porn addiction. You are in pain, yet you continue to run.[/quote]

You have real problems my friend. People may disagree with me, but do you think anyone, anyone at all is taking you seriously at this point? You lay claim to my many logical fallacies as you label them, but you have not had a reasoned reply to anything for at least 30 posts. Every post of yours is some simple-minded, feeble (your age), cowardly attack. Do you hear the crickets chirping every time you post now? Are you going to break this one down sentence by sentence too? Offer a few insults? Is that all you have? Is this what the internet has reduced you to? Is this what being in your 50’s is all about?

Did you miss the part about me not being married for 20 years now? Don’t let facts get in your way. I rarely drink. I love porn, particularly home made porn. Given that you’ve apparently been reduced to “straightening out” other men from the safety of the internet, I’m pretty sure you have not much use for anything sexual. Carry on good Christian.