Maybe you missed the thread where forlife eschewed all the dead Jews, Christians, agnostic Germans, and Allied soldiers to remind us all that the Nazis (even the gay ones) persecuted some homosexuals.
That was a pretty low blow to a lot of people.
[/quote]
Blatantly false, and you know it.
I have NEVER minimized the suffering of these other victims of Nazi atrocity. Pointing out that gays were persecuted by the Nazis in no way implies these other victims suffered any less, nor does it excuse Nazi crimes against them.
The only reason the subject even came up was in response to the implication that gays have never suffered systematic discrimination.
[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:
Ever wonder this?
-Gay marriage
-“Holy wars”
I am a closet atheist in real life because I am afraid that if the Christian clients find out I am not one of them they will not use my services. But they have no problem at all telling me about their beliefs. Is it just an excuse to be a bigot?
[/quote]
To answer the op’s original question:
In my case, I have no qualms about telling people that I’m a Christian. And if you held a gun to my head and asked me I’d say the same thing. We’re all going to die it’s just a matter of how and when. So I hide behind nothing and no one!
With that said, If I quote the Bible about a topic like homosexuality I’m not hiding behind the Bible. I’m quoting scripture. Do I disagree with scripture on that topic-- NOPE~! In fact, I could argue all day long against gay marriage on multiple levels and I have right here on T Nation. Plenty of people don’t like me for that, but I don’t care. This politically correct age that we’re all living in will pass away just like you and I will. And in the end the only thing that is going to matter is what you believed and how you carried that forth in your life.
Forlife has compared homosexual persecution with what African Americans went through with slavery. I think that’s pretty much where he started losing credibility. When I first read his posts on this topic I was wondering if he was serious. But yeah…he was serious. He’s pretty a nutty guy with a one track mind.
[quote]kamui wrote:
because, if we are speaking about infants, it’s the parents’s consent that is relevant, not the infant’s one.
at least in our western legal system,[/quote]
No doubt. I do wish, though, that our society had a little more respect for young children as individuals. [/quote]
…what?[/quote]
“What” you don’t understand or “what” I said something shocking?[/quote]
The active industry of abortion is in direct opposition of your statement. Yet, you defend it.
When ever I hear a left winger claim that it’s her and she has a right to do what she wants with it I remind them that prostitution is illegal. And that sticking a needle loaded with illegal drugs into your body is also illegal. There’s actually quite a long list of things that you can’t do with you own body including ending your life. But abortion to the left is somehow different.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
When ever I hear a left winger claim that it’s her and she has a right to do what she wants with it I remind them that prostitution is illegal. And that sticking a needle loaded with illegal drugs into your body is also illegal. There’s actually quite a long list of things that you can’t do with you own body including ending your life. But abortion to the left is somehow different.
They’re a strange and wonderous bunch.[/quote]
They are.
Liberals believe you can poke a hole in the brain of an unborn baby, the day before birth, and suck out its brains and kill him because the child is a “burden.” Liberals also believe that, oh, say 8 days after that same baby is born, to clip off extra flesh off the side of his penis, in a very minor medical procedure that likley prevents STDS and cancers, and certainly has a long religious history, is an abomonation.
Liberals have tried their economic policies in cultures, locations, and times as varied as Soviet Russia, China, North Korea, various South American countries, various African countries, Nazi Germany, Detroit, and Washington DC — and failed every time, and yet still want to try them again and again.
I have NEVER minimized the suffering of these other victims of Nazi atrocity.[/quote]
Entirely untrue. You equivocated trial and jailing with forced labor and death (if that’s not minimizing suffering, I don’t know what is). You claimed the persecution of a majority of a subpopulation when, in best known fact, it was a minority and you did so without relevance or consideration of other subpopulations. Essentially, you inflated (or simply chose with a bias) numbers and made equivocations to portray homosexuals as being persecuted by the Nazis in a similar manner as Jews and Christians or even just dissenters;
[quote]forlife wrote:
The point is that every known homosexual was rounded up and thrown into a concentration camp solely because of his sexuality.[/quote]
The majority of known homosexuals under the Nazi regime were tried, sentenced to jail/prison time, and released. I certainly agree that often their homes were invaded and they were wrongly jailed, even sentenced to forced labor, and occasionally executed, but you chose to hold them up and advance their cause over other groups for (to me) obvious reasons.
A larger percentage (most) and a larger number of dissenting Germans were thrown into concentration camps and/or executed. Even if it was unintentional (which I’m pretty sure it was not), you’ve portrayed homosexuals as subject to greater persecution to even just plain Germans.
Again, entirely untrue, the entire thread was about peeing on a picture of Jesus. The subject came up because someone said, “People other than Jews were executed by the Nazis…” and IN FACT named homosexuals as a persecuted group. No one made any assertions or implications about a lack of persecutions (It’s the Nazis, remember?). You injected the it and then inflated it.
[quote]kamui wrote:
because, if we are speaking about infants, it’s the parents’s consent that is relevant, not the infant’s one.
at least in our western legal system,[/quote]
No doubt. I do wish, though, that our society had a little more respect for young children as individuals. [/quote]
…what?[/quote]
“What” you don’t understand or “what” I said something shocking?[/quote]
The active industry of abortion is in direct opposition of your statement. Yet, you defend it.[/quote]
Yeah, it’s almost like I’m not one dimensional or something.
You’ve applied a meaning or idea to a word I’ve used that I don’t associate it with. I don’t know how your mind works, so you’re on your own for figuring out where the issue is.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
When ever I hear a left winger claim that it’s her and she has a right to do what she wants with it I remind them that prostitution is illegal. And that sticking a needle loaded with illegal drugs into your body is also illegal. There’s actually quite a long list of things that you can’t do with you own body including ending your life. But abortion to the left is somehow different.
They’re a strange and wonderous bunch.[/quote]
Well, I certainly hope this wasn’t meant to be directed at me, because it doesn’t describe my positions at all.
Instead of telling me what I wrote and what I meant, feel free to address my actual points:
[quote]1) I have never opposed legalization of polygamous unions, and have consistently said that unless there is reliable evidence that polygamy is inherently harmful, it would be unjustly discriminatory to deny them the right to marry.
I have never minimized the suffering of concentration camp victims, irrespective of the reason they were persecuted by the Nazis. Pointing out that gays were exterminated by the Nazis does not in any way imply that others didn’t suffer horribly as well. I am part Jewish myself, and I have personally known a Jewish concentration camp survivor who described her experience there. It was an atrocity, period.
Protesting doesn’t give one minority group any more of a right to equal treatment than another minority group. People have the right to love and happiness, and to equal treatment under the law, regardless of how large or how loud their minority group may be.[/quote]
I have no interest in squabbling with you. If you want to have a constructive discussion with me, that’s fine.
I have never minimized the suffering of concentration camp victims, irrespective of the reason they were persecuted by the Nazis. Pointing out that gays were exterminated by the Nazis does not in any way imply that others didn’t suffer horribly as well.[/quote]
Whatever, we’ve discussed these points in respective threads. You are consistently slanted in a pro-homosexuals ONLY direction. You remain so to the detriment of yourself and others.
Gays weren’t exterminated by the Nazis. Homosexuality isn’t strictly biological (remember?) so extinction is a bit of a non-sequitur to begin with, and if it were a systematic genocide, it was one of the most poorly executed genocides (<5% were killed) committed by one of the most powerful genocide regimes the world has known.
I apologize if I misportrayed your picture of the systematic extinction of homosexuals by the Nazis as having incidentally killed 11.5 million Jews, Christians, Germans, Allies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, LDSs, Africans, Central Asians, Smokers, Lefties, Fat People, etc., etc., etc. Sometimes when I don’t write things clearly, similar to the way they actually occurred, people can and do get the wrong idea. Please, at the very least, if you come across the perpetuation of any of my misrepresentations, don’t let them stand unrefuted.
BTW- Am I mistaken in that you are claiming to be a divorced Homosexual ex-Mormon Jew living in Texas? Or is the ‘Jewish’ just the ‘I have a Jew in my family tree!’ variety?
I have never minimized the suffering of concentration camp victims, irrespective of the reason they were persecuted by the Nazis. Pointing out that gays were exterminated by the Nazis does not in any way imply that others didn’t suffer horribly as well.[/quote]
Whatever, we’ve discussed these points in respective threads. You are consistently slanted in a pro-homosexuals ONLY direction. You remain so to the detriment of yourself and others.
Gays weren’t exterminated by the Nazis. Homosexuality isn’t strictly biological (remember?) so extinction is a bit of a non-sequitur to begin with, and if it were a systematic genocide, it was one of the most poorly executed genocides (<5% were killed) committed by one of the most powerful genocide regimes the world has known.
I apologize if I misportrayed your picture of the systematic extinction of homosexuals by the Nazis as having incidentally killed 11.5 million Jews, Christians, Germans, Allies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, LDSs, Africans, Central Asians, Smokers, Lefties, Fat People, etc., etc., etc. Sometimes when I don’t write things clearly, similar to the way they actually occurred, people can and do get the wrong idea. Please, at the very least, if you come across the perpetuation of any of my misrepresentations, don’t let them stand unrefuted.
BTW- Am I mistaken in that you are claiming to be a divorced Homosexual ex-Mormon Jew living in Texas? Or is the ‘Jewish’ just the ‘I have a Jew in my family tree!’ variety?
[/quote]
I’ve regularly said that I support equal rights for all groups, and have specifically defended Christian rights on numerous occasions. Nobody should be discriminated against on the basis of their sex, race, religion, disability status, sexual orientation, etc. and I strongly support legal measures protecting people from adverse discrimination.
One of my ancestors was a Jewish woman, so the relation is by blood rather than a cultural connection.
Gays in fact were exterminated by Nazis. The total number of gays
incarcerated in concentration camps was relatively small (apparently,
between 5k - 15k). As I pointed out earlier, this isn’t surprising
given that the gay population is relatively small. In concentration
camps, gays were considered the lowest of the low, and were given
unusually cruel treatment in the camps (see the information below on
death rates for gays compared to other groups).
Again, the point has NEVER been to elevate gay suffering and
discrimination over the suffering and discrimination of other
persecuted groups. Every single atrocity committed in the
concentration camps is unforgivable, regardless of why people were
sent there.
Here’s a good summary from Wiki:
[quote]1920s, homosexual people in Germany, particularly in Berlin,
enjoyed a higher level of freedom and acceptance than anywhere else in
the world. However, upon the rise of Adolf Hitler,
gay men and, to a lesser extent, lesbians, were two of the numerous
groups targeted by the Nazi Party and were ultimately among Holocaust
victims. Beginning in 1933, gay organizations were banned, scholarly
books about homosexuality, and sexuality in general, were burned, and
homosexuals within the Nazi Party itself were murdered. The Gestapo
compiled lists of homosexuals, who were compelled to sexually conform
to the “German norm.”
Between 1933-1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as
homosexuals, of which some 50,000 were officially sentenced. Most
of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to
15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration
camps. It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually
perished in the camps, but leading scholar Ruediger Lautman believes
that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have
been as high as 60%. Homosexuals in the camps were treated in an
unusually cruel manner by their captors.
After the war, the treatment of homosexuals in concentration camps
went unacknowledged by most countries, and some men were even
re-arrested and imprisoned based on evidence found during the Nazi
years. It was not until the 1980s that governments began to
acknowledge this episode, and not until 2002 that the German
government apologized to the gay community. This period still provokes
controversy, however. In 2005, the European Parliament adopted a
resolution on the Holocaust which included the persecution of
homosexuals.[/quote]
Also of interest:
[quote]Estimates vary widely as to the number of gay men imprisoned in
concentration camps during the Holocaust, ranging from 5,000 to
15,000, many of whom died. Larger numbers include those who were both
Jewish and gay, or even Jewish, gay, and communist. In addition,
records as to the specific reasons for internment are non-existent in
many areas, making it hard to put an exact number on exactly how many
gay men perished in death camps. See pink triangle.
Gay men suffered unusually cruel treatment in the concentration camps.
They faced persecution not only from German soldiers but also from
other prisoners, and many gay men were beaten to death. Additionally,
gay men in forced labor camps routinely received more grueling and
dangerous work assignments than other non-Jewish inmates, under the
policy of “Extermination Through Work”. SS soldiers also were known to
use gay men for target practice, aiming their weapons at the pink
triangles their human targets were forced to wear.
The harsh treatment can be attributed to the view of the SS guards
toward gay men, as well as to the homophobic attitudes present in
German society at large. The marginalization of gay men in Germany was
reflected in the camps. Many died from beatings, some of them caused
by other prisoners. Nazi doctors often used gay men for scientific
experiments in an attempt to locate a “gay gene” to “cure” any future
Aryan children who were gay.
Experiences such as these can account for the high death rate of gay
men in the camps as compared to the other “anti-social groups.” A
study by R�¼diger Lautmann found that 60% of gay men in concentration
camps died, as compared to 41% for political prisoners and 35% for
Jehovah’s Witnesses. The study also shows that survival rates for gay
men were slightly higher for internees from the middle and upper
classes and for married bisexual men and those with children.[/quote]
One of my ancestors was a Jewish woman, so the relation is by blood rather than a cultural connection.[/quote]
Was it your mother? What I mean is, I can’t speak Hebrew and I’ve never been to Synagogue, but I know several Jews and I’ve read the Torrah and skimmed a Talmud, so I’m Jewish, right? Sorry, sorry. What I really mean to say is, I’m becoming increasingly convinced that you can’t type anything without severely distorting it, often past the verge of lying, in favor of yourself or homosexuality (yourself). You’re the gay lixy. I almost wonder if you’re some sort of domain specific language AI that’s programmed to put a pro-gay slant on everything you process.
[quote]Gays in fact were exterminated by Nazis. The total number of gays
incarcerated in concentration camps was relatively small (apparently,
between 5k - 15k). As I pointed out earlier, this isn’t surprising
given that the gay population is relatively small. In concentration
camps, gays were considered the lowest of the low, and were given
unusually cruel treatment in the camps (see the information below on
death rates for gays compared to other groups).[/quote]
[quote]Between 1933-1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as
homosexuals, of which some 50,000 were officially sentenced. Most
of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to
15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration
camps. It is unclear how many of the 5,000 to 15,000 eventually
perished in the camps, but leading scholar Ruediger Lautman believes
that the death rate of homosexuals in concentration camps may have
been as high as 60%.[/quote]
[quote]The study also shows that survival rates for gay
men were slightly higher for internees from the middle and upper
classes and for married bisexual men and those with children.[/quote]
I’d ask you to reconcile the statements above, but working under the assumption that you’re just a bot has forced me to realize a) it would be pointless and b) that I don’t need to.
You pretty clearly state that homosexuals were exterminated by the Nazis, a fact which even the experts couldn’t purport to know with any high degree of certainty. Whereas Wikipedia pretty clearly states that less than 10% and as little as 3% (not ruling out the highly unlikely possibility of 0%) of the people arrested by the Nazis as being homosexuals died. Your statement clearly states that homosexuals were exterminated by the Nazis, while Wikipedia states that survival rates for gays was higher than the bourgeoisie, bisexual men, and fathers.
I have the choice of believing your extinction theory, or the rough facts of an expert that put the death rate on the order of 3-9% of people arrested for being homosexuals. Possibly lower depending on how you consider the condition of a ‘Gay Jew’.
Wow, thanks! Somebody should really collect all these Wikipedia pages in one place and make them search-able. Matter of fact, they should make all the stuff on the internet search-able. I bet something like that would be really useful.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
You pretty clearly state that homosexuals were exterminated by the Nazis, a fact which even the experts couldn’t purport to know with any high degree of certainty.[/quote]
You must have missed this:
And this:
[quote]Experiences such as these can account for the high death rate of gay
men in the camps as compared to the other “anti-social groups.” A study by Ruediger Lautmann found that 60% of gay men in concentration camps died, as compared to 41% for political prisoners and 35% for Jehovah’s Witnesses.[/quote]
And this:
And this:
[quote]Additionally, gay men in forced labor camps routinely received more grueling and
dangerous work assignments than other non-Jewish inmates, under the policy of “Extermination Through Work”. [/quote]
And this:
And you completely misread this:
How do you go from the above statement to your blatantly false conclusion:
The statement says no such thing, and in fact it says that GAYS WHO WERE UPPER CLASS, BISEXUAL, OR HAD CHILDREN WERE BETTER OFF THAN GAYS WHO WERE NOT.
It’s obvious that gays were systematically targeted by the Nazis, and that they were imprisoned and killed by the Nazis due to their sexual orientation.
If you want to disagree with the above statement, feel free. Like I said, I have no desire to squabble with you and the facts speak for themselves.
It’s obvious that gays were systematically targeted by the Nazis, and that they were imprisoned and killed by the Nazis due to their sexual orientation.[/quote]
You’re absolutely right about the facts speaking for themselves; 85-95K people that were tried for homosexuality by the Nazis weren’t necessarily imprisoned, probably didn’t even see a prison camp, and definitely were not killed. But of the other 5-15k, nearly two thirds of them were probably exterminated. But maybe I’m missing your point again, the point is people were exterminated by shooting and by beating and they were homosexual. And the Nazis beat and shot and worked to death maybe 3-9k of them because they were homosexual. Sure; Germans dissenters, Freemasons, Liberals, Resistance Fighters, Poles, Slavs, “Asiatics”, Allies, Soviets, Gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the physically disabled, the mentally ill, Bisexuals, and even other Nazis that were ‘systematically targeted’ and/or exterminated by the Nazi regime, but you’re right, the obvious point is that homosexuals were targeted, persecuted, and systematically exterminated. Again, I’m sorry if my portrayal of the facts obscured the more important statement you were trying to make about peeing on a picture of Jesus.
It’s obvious that gays were systematically targeted by the Nazis, and that they were imprisoned and killed by the Nazis due to their sexual orientation.[/quote]
You’re absolutely right about the facts speaking for themselves; 85-95K people that were tried for homosexuality by the Nazis weren’t necessarily imprisoned, probably didn’t even see a prison camp, and definitely were not killed. But of the other 5-15k, nearly two thirds of them were probably exterminated. But maybe I’m missing your point again, the point is people were exterminated by shooting and by beating and they were homosexual. And the Nazis beat and shot and worked to death maybe 3-9k of them because they were homosexual. Sure; Germans dissenters, Freemasons, Liberals, Resistance Fighters, Poles, Slavs, “Asiatics”, Allies, Soviets, Gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, the physically disabled, the mentally ill, Bisexuals, and even other Nazis that were ‘systematically targeted’ and/or exterminated by the Nazi regime, but you’re right, the obvious point is that homosexuals were targeted, persecuted, and systematically exterminated. Again, I’m sorry if my portrayal of the facts obscured the more important statement you were trying to make about peeing on a picture of Jesus.[/quote]
I have never once claimed that people haven’t been horribly discriminated against due to race, religion, disability status, etc. None of this discrimination is excusable, regardless of who the victims are. I was simply pointing out that people have been systematically persecuted, imprisoned, and murdered just because they were gay.
And don’t worry. I won’t accuse you of dishonesty or disingenuousness because you misread the Wiki article on gays being persecuted more in concentration camps when they were poor or childless than when they were wealthy and had children. It was an honest mistake. Hopefully you’ll show the same good will toward me if we interact again in the future.
I have never once claimed that people haven’t been horribly discriminated against due to race, religion, disability status, etc.[/quote]
True, you just consistently undersell the horrible discriminations that did and do occur against races and/or religions to make the homosexuals appear just as, if not more victimized than other minorities.
And I was just pointing out that persecution under Nazis, especially of homosexuals, barely, if at all, fits the description of targeted, systematic, and extermination. Especially given the poorly defined nature of homosexuality (even today) on top of the possibility that it’s eradication may not be achievable in even a modest degree, on top of the fact that the Nazis released nearly twenty accused homosexuals for each one they committed to a concentration camp, let alone killed.
If you would’ve avoided typing when I said there were far fewer homosexuals killed by the Nazis than Jews or Christians (there were), there wouldn’t have been any ill will. If you hadn’t asserted the equivalence of the maybe 15k homosexuals with the outright execution of German dissenters, we wouldn’t have had a problem. If you wouldn’t continue to refute the fact that a ~5% kill rate hardly represents a targeted extermination, we wouldn’t have a problem. If you hadn’t claimed to be part Jew as though it were true and relevant, I wouldn’t impugn you for it. Personally, I would’ve preferred you accused me of dishonesty, I made a mistake, misinterpreted and then misrepresented the statistic (despite getting it 60% right repeatedly in numerous other places), I’ll own it. I’d ask you to own your multitude of misrepresentations, but I know you’ll deny or justify (and propagate) them like a mindless automaton.