Yeah. I know. I’m just trying to point out that these decisions weren’t made in a moral vacuum or from a relativistic point of view. A lot of the Constitutional delegates were Deists, quite a few were Christians, but there was a definite Enlightenment ethos that was informed by Judeo-Christian ethics. [/quote]
That’s a pretty fucked up interpretation of Enlightenment thinking, best characterized by Voltaire’s ‘Remember the cruelties!’ of the atrocities committed in the name of a patriarchal God.
Being gay is not natural. And as you know Americans have always rejected unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because, as you know, a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can’t marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed. The sanctity of Britany Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.
Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in America.
Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Oh man…you want everything from these guys.
Oh man… your debating skills are second to none.
Be careful I’ve been reading this thread and watching you get your head handed to you for several pages. [/quote]
You’d say that about anyone who agreed with you. When push came to shove, PRCalDude and Boston Barrister both submitted to craptacular debating fallacies.
Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
For 9. If both parents are ladies, how could a boy living their learn how to be a man? If both are men, how could a girl learn to be a woman?
For 10. Some things about human nature are changeable and some are not. Where the line is, maybe no one knows. You assume that people can change to fit any conditions.
[quote]Standndeliver wrote:
For 9. If both parents are ladies, how could a boy living their learn how to be a man? If both are men, how could a girl learn to be a woman?
For 10. Some things about human nature are changeable and some are not. Where the line is, maybe no one knows. You assume that people can change to fit any conditions.[/quote]
If it’s a single mother, how can a boy learn to be a man? If it’s a single father, how can a daughter learn to be a woman?
And you assume that people can’t. How do you know that gay people have no place in human society?
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Standndeliver wrote:
For 9. If both parents are ladies, how could a boy living their learn how to be a man? If both are men, how could a girl learn to be a woman?
For 10. Some things about human nature are changeable and some are not. Where the line is, maybe no one knows. You assume that people can change to fit any conditions.
If it’s a single mother, how can a boy learn to be a man? If it’s a single father, how can a daughter learn to be a woman?
And you assume that people can’t. How do you know that gay people have no place in human society?[/quote]
Single parenting is almost always worse than having a mother and father. A boy knows he has a father even if the father is missing. Also, there are things a man can teach a boy that a lady can’t.
If people are completely changeable, why do they not adapt to authoritarian rulers? They always rebel if they can. Why do people not accept being slaves?
Do gay people have a place in a society? I suppose but remember that until very recently a child was an investment. Having children to work the land and feed you when you got old was the primary investment. The bias against gay people will be very strong for a long time. Marriage that intentionally produces no children will be seen as somehow wrong for a very long time.
[quote]Standndeliver wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Standndeliver wrote:
For 9. If both parents are ladies, how could a boy living their learn how to be a man? If both are men, how could a girl learn to be a woman?
For 10. Some things about human nature are changeable and some are not. Where the line is, maybe no one knows. You assume that people can change to fit any conditions.
If it’s a single mother, how can a boy learn to be a man? If it’s a single father, how can a daughter learn to be a woman?
And you assume that people can’t. How do you know that gay people have no place in human society?
Single parenting is almost always worse than having a mother and father. A boy knows he has a father even if the father is missing. Also, there are things a man can teach a boy that a lady can’t.
If people are completely changeable, why do they not adapt to authoritarian rulers? They always rebel if they can. Why do people not accept being slaves?
Do gay people have a place in a society? I suppose but remember that until very recently a child was an investment. Having children to work the land and feed you when you got old was the primary investment. The bias against gay people will be very strong for a long time. Marriage that intentionally produces no children will be seen as somehow wrong for a very long time.
[/quote]
9 is true. But I disagree that an absent or deliquent father is any better than none at all. Ideally, a boy would have a male role model. But I think being raised by two loving women would be better than being raised by one woman where the father is a mess and/or totally out of the picture.
My parents come from a different country and so many concepts that Americans have differ a lot from how I was raised. Part of me says that gay people have just as much right to be a part of a community while another part says they should be burned in the center of the village. Where my parents grew up, if two gay people went somewhere to get married, they would be hung.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Standndeliver wrote:
Where my parents grew up, if two gay people went somewhere to get married, they would be hung.
The question is why?[/quote]
When I first saw openly gay people at the university, I must admit I was kind of shocked and a little repulsed. Even though my parents would never (and I mean never) discuss anything having to do with any kind of sex, it was drummen into us that ‘this is how you live’. Anything else was evil. Marrying outside of the community (Chaldean) was not even considered by most guys. My mom, very old-fashioned, once went after me with a spatula for even bring up the subject of dating a Caucasian girl. Its funny now but she was really angry.
So, I think it is just some tradition which became cast in stone.
[quote]Standndeliver wrote:
When I first saw openly gay people at the university, I must admit I was kind of shocked and a little repulsed.[/quote]
I’m not exactly comfortable with it either. But the difference between me and the bigots would be that I really don’t care. The gay guy can go root another guy, I’ll just get back to rooting a female. No harm done.
Yeah, parents tend to do that. But as we get older, most people cast aside those first ideas. We learn that the adults are not always right.
[quote]Anything else was evil. Marrying outside of the community (Chaldean) was not even considered by most guys. My mom, very old-fashioned, once went after me with a spatula for even bring up the subject of dating a Caucasian girl. Its funny now but she was really angry.
So, I think it is just some tradition which became cast in stone.[/quote]
Ha! My mum is still pissed off that I’m dating a white girl. Oh well, her loss.