To answer your question… Perhaps it was one of those thingies you’re hooked up to. Or one of them sexy lady doctors wearing horn rimmed glasses. Or I suppose maybe… maybe it was Asclepius.
@PushHarder
Out of curiosity I tried to find your age on your profile. Then I noticed that you wear size 11 cowboy boots and loled. The legend of eliteballa shall live on!
Out of respect for that I revise my previous statement. Let’s call it an excursion until further notice then…
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]
Which creation story?
Did you read Genesis with the assistance of the Talmud? If so, you would be aware there is no conflict.
The Torah is 100% correct, but it is an index, not an encylopedia.[/quote]
I’m assuming you’re talking about genesis 1 vs. genesis 2. In which case… does it matter?
No, I have not read the Talmud. How does the Talmud reconcile this?
You can interpret anything to be 100% correct because it’s a matter of how much a mental stretch you allow yourself to make before dropping something. You wouldn’t say that the Torah is 100% correct if viewed literally, correct? Well, others do. Why would God allow his book to be so open to interpretation? Why not just personally tell us what he wants, if anything?
Besides this, if the bible is meant to be taken metaphorically, then how much? To what degree? The correlation between what we know to be true and what the bible says to be true is so weak that the only way to make the connection is to get the correct answer ourselves and work backwards (making the biblical creation account pointless as it doesn’t actually help us to understand the universe) and even then it’s an incredible mental stretch to make things fit. The tower of babel is a very poor metaphor for the out of Africa theory, the order of creation given in genesis one is completely out of order with how things would have to naturally occur and what exactly is Noah’s ark a metaphor for?
There comes a point where you have to realize that you’re trying to make reality fit your world view and not the other way around.
[/quote]
Read it and find out. Otherwise, you’re not worth my time.[/quote]
Not sure if it’s intentional, but that came off rather defensive.
So, just browsing an online translation I’m assuming you’re talking about the part about there being 974 generations before God created Adam, yes? If so, then fine. It’s a stretch, but it’s better than nothing.
Understand though, I’m here to debate Christians, and they aren’t so fortunate as to have the Talmud. To be honest, I view Judaism as being much more logically consistent than Christianity. [/quote]
Out of curiosity, do Jews view these 974 generations to be subhuman or human? If the latter, they’re only shifting the starting point.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:<<< I’m blind too, but admitting that fact is the beginning of true wisdom and enlightenment.[/quote]No kiddin? Aw now that is like really far out man.
[/quote]
Apparently, the concept is so far out you can’t even imagine applying it to your current state of “enlightenment”…which is kinda the point 
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
I did a little bit of digging to look into the growth rates of religions and it would appear there is no agreement. Though the front runner claims will indicate that Islam, Pentacostalism, and Buddhism are all the “fastest growing religions”.
I could find statistics on births and conversions but no statistics on relinquishers, which gives us an incomplete picture. The Births themselves are poor indicators for it remains to be seen what level of their faith they will retain.
There’s also no way of telling whether these Christians are simply self-mislabeled Deists. There are levels of so called “Christianity” that are tolerant to other faiths, Christians who don’t believe in hell, Christians who believe that essentially “good people” will go to heaven regardless of the minutiae, and then we have “Christians” who are Christian in the very weakest sense so that they “fit in”.
And along this spectrum we have varying interpretations of each faith that divert. Make no mistake for anyone who claims to be authentically christian there is a more extreme group that disagrees.
We are entering a time where now more than ever conflicting ideas can be seen in juxtaposition, and must compete on the strength of their merits. Our prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulates will have to work overtime so that we can exist in a world where doubt and skepticism are more attractive than faith and certainty. And we will continue to tally up “Christians” even as they fail to satisfy the most moderate criteria as such, until we are left with Deists under many names where the details of each dogma are eventually overthrown by the mainstream connected culture.
For radicals their only chance is to move into isolation to prevent contamination of subsequent generations with foreign ideas, lest their ideas be required to compete according to the standards of epistemology and rationality, as opposed to emotional content. But this also alienates them further from the mainstream.
If in 100 years from now 70 or 80 percent of “christians” condone gay marriage, can we say that “the tenets of christianity have remained unchanged for 2100 years?”. Of course we can, because people living in that age will say that abhorance of homosexuality was never a tenet of the faith, because we know “the truth” now.
…
On another note… I would love to hear the answer to TigerTime’s question “Why should I chose your God over Q’uq’umatz?”[/quote]
I agree, to some extent. Historically, humanity has progressed away from raw supernaturalism as scientific enlightenment has grown. However, don’t underestimate the human capacity for confirmatory bias. Where a need exists for meaning, self-value, purpose, and direction, people will find a way to fill that need, and unfortunately science has little to offer in that regard.
I don’t see humans evolving into vulcans. It’s just not in our DNA.
[quote]Gumpshmee wrote:
And it all comes down to this… This is not a rational issue. It is on a level below that. God for many people exists in the same way that “mother”, “father”, “anger”, “sadness” and many other deep emotional concepts exist. It causes more turmoil in the psyche to rearrange the foundation than to continue stacking on top of it. The mind rests on the assumption that for anything to be valid these things must be held true.
For my own journey I went into deep depression when I started to wonder about the meaning of all things. And the reason for that was my primary assumption that things must have meaning for me to be happy which was just an assumption. In fact it is the many variations on these meanings I find that are causing pain. The search for truth that leads to one truth as distinct from others creates alienation and contention.
We have no more reason to sharply distinguish ourselves into groups in order to survive in our present world even though our minds strongly perform that function. We have “certain” christians, skeptics, scientists and agnostics because thoughts gather emotional strength and momentum rather than remaining just points of data, to urge us to act upon them to survive. Diligence is needed in order not to search so hard for the truth that we grasp at one so early and dearly and leave no vacancy for new possibilities.
Just “think” about it.[/quote]
I went through a similar process of deep questioning, where I relentlessly challenged every belief, every assumption, and every value that I held. It was a very emotional, very human journey. I opened my eyes and willingly stepped into the abyss, without knowing where (or indeed whether) I would land. The result was a paradigm shift that I never would have thought possible, given the way I saw the world for so many years.
If you’ve read “Jonathan Livingston Seagull” by Richard Bach, he powerfully describes this process of personal growth in allegory. It’s impossible to explain to someone, and the only way to understand it is to experience it yourself.
I still believe happiness and peace derive from a sense of meaning, but the difference now is that the meaning is internally derived rather than being dictated by others.
[quote]kneedragger79 wrote:
I would like to offer another perspective. By no means am I anything compared to previous posters, but I would like to offer my two cents.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
. . . . Assuming God created me then he knows how my mind works and he knows exactly what must be done to convert me.[/quote]
What is the point, if you do not want to see the truth?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Since he is all powerful it would take no effort whatsoever for him to do it, so the fact that he doesn’t means he has no intention of saving me.[/quote]
This might be hard for you, but realize God gave everyone in the history of the world, today and tomorrow FREE WILL!
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I am an individual. If God wants to convince me on an individual level then he’s going to have to meet the standards he programmed me to have.[quote]
Yet you limit God?!?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I don’t owe him my faith.[/quote]
No, you owe him at least your faith and should give him your heart because he gave you this life, in the first place.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
If he wants it, he knows what to do. It’s not about me being “special”, I’d expect him to do the same for everyone.[/quote]
Now YOU think you are on the same level of understanding or even knowedge, as God? Remind me how young you are? Do you know all? Past, future and present?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
I wouldn’t invest money in a company that I think has a shady, or non-existent business plan, just because they’ve convinced other people. I’m not those people.[/quote]
Your point?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
So far, your God has given me about as much reason to follow him as any other God has.[/quote]
There is only ONE God!!
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Why should I chose your God over Q’uq’umatz?[/quote]
Again, without Him you would cease to exist.
Now do not expect me to follow your little endeavor. I saw this post yesterday and no one dealt with it, so I am giving another point of view. Look at my avi, up and to the left <–, tell me after six weeks in a vegetative coma, what gave me life? If you were to convince me other than God, I might stress might believe man evolved from apes or some other bs. But that will never happen ; ) I [i]HAVE[/i] seem much, at least which this world has to offer!!
[/quote]
Well, since all you arguments assume the very thing you’re trying to prove AND considering you’ve admitted you have no intention of changing your mind, you’ll understand why I’m just going to ignore you.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Then how do you reconcile the theory of evolution with the story of creation in Genesis?[/quote]
Which creation story?
Did you read Genesis with the assistance of the Talmud? If so, you would be aware there is no conflict.
The Torah is 100% correct, but it is an index, not an encylopedia.[/quote]
I’m assuming you’re talking about genesis 1 vs. genesis 2. In which case… does it matter?
No, I have not read the Talmud. How does the Talmud reconcile this?
You can interpret anything to be 100% correct because it’s a matter of how much a mental stretch you allow yourself to make before dropping something. You wouldn’t say that the Torah is 100% correct if viewed literally, correct? Well, others do. Why would God allow his book to be so open to interpretation? Why not just personally tell us what he wants, if anything?
Besides this, if the bible is meant to be taken metaphorically, then how much? To what degree? The correlation between what we know to be true and what the bible says to be true is so weak that the only way to make the connection is to get the correct answer ourselves and work backwards (making the biblical creation account pointless as it doesn’t actually help us to understand the universe) and even then it’s an incredible mental stretch to make things fit. The tower of babel is a very poor metaphor for the out of Africa theory, the order of creation given in genesis one is completely out of order with how things would have to naturally occur and what exactly is Noah’s ark a metaphor for?
There comes a point where you have to realize that you’re trying to make reality fit your world view and not the other way around.
[/quote]
Read it and find out. Otherwise, you’re not worth my time.[/quote]
Not sure if it’s intentional, but that came off rather defensive.
So, just browsing an online translation I’m assuming you’re talking about the part about there being 974 generations before God created Adam, yes? If so, then fine. It’s a stretch, but it’s better than nothing.
Understand though, I’m here to debate Christians, and they aren’t so fortunate as to have the Talmud. To be honest, I view Judaism as being much more logically consistent than Christianity. [/quote]
Out of curiosity, do Jews view these 974 generations to be subhuman or human? If the latter, they’re only shifting the starting point.[/quote]
Exactly why I call it a stretch. It seems people just interpret the bible to mean whatever point they need to prove at that moment. Given how many different opinions I’m seeing on the bible JUST between the “religious” people in this thread, it seems like they really should be debating each other rather than us.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
If I am to believe your God above any other God, then it’s his responsibility to give me reason to do so to a greater extent than any other God has.
[/quote]
Uh no, that’s your problem not His. Your the one who has issues not Him. You have every right in the world not to believe in God or anything else you don’t want to believe in. Why should you be ok with seeking information of all other matters, but here you want God to send it down to you on a silver platter? You’re special why, exactly?
This wasn’t your conversation, you attention whore, you. ;p
Assuming God created me then he knows how my mind works and he knows exactly what must be done to convert me. Since he is all powerful it would take no effort whatsoever for him to do it, so the fact that he doesn’t means he has no intention of saving me.
[/quote]
He did his part. If that’s not enough for you well that’s your problem. God is not a trained monkey coming down to do bunch of magic tricks so you believe. You don’t want to be convinced, you plain don’t want a relationship with God. Why should he force you? He isn’t going to force you into belief. If what’s available isn’t enough then likely nothing will be enough so don’t bother.
No you don’t owe him your faith nor will you ever. Sounds like you’ve made your choice. What your asking for as a point of convincing is divine revelation…You aren’t prepared for what that would bring. You think you require that for faith, you don’t. You think about this two dimensionally. You think it’s all about a book with a bunch of stories when in truth it’s all around you. You think you know alot and science can teach you everything religion does. That’s malarkey because they are two different disciplines…Do they intersect? Yep, everything does at some point, though.
[quote]
I wouldn’t invest money in a company that I think has a shady, or non-existent business plan, just because they’ve convinced other people. I’m not those people.
So far, your God has given me about as much reason to follow him as any other God has. Why should I chose your God over Q’uq’umatz? [/quote]
There is only one God, muslims follow the Creator one, two, you don’t have to follow him, ever. So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?
[quote]pat wrote:
So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
I knew that’s what I was getting into when I first engaged on this thread (I believe I even said so), but now it is pretty clear that that’s all he’s here for. Particularly after it became clear that I actually agreed with his view of human origins, scientifically anyway, and he decided to continue arguing anyway.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
I knew that’s what I was getting into when I first engaged on this thread (I believe I even said so), but now it is pretty clear that that’s all he’s here for. Particularly after it became clear that I actually agreed with his view of human origins, scientifically anyway, and he decided to continue arguing anyway. [/quote]
I noticed that. I guess he thought we were all bible thumping, backwoods, Westboro types who are brainwashed and programmed, that we really don’t know what we are talking about or actually haven’t thought about it.
Actually, he didn’t do his part, that’s my point. If he did what was needed to convince me, then I’d be convinced. He’s known since the beginning of time what must be done to convince me, and he’s gone out of his way before to do “trained monkey” tricks to convince others so I guess he just doesn’t want me in Heaven.
And no, it’s not a problem for me at all. There’s never been one point in my life where I’ve thought to myself “man, if only I where a Christian right now…” and since your God doesn’t exist I’m not worried about the afterlife.
It’s not a matter of forcing me to believe in him, rather, he’s forced me to not believe in him with the overwhelming lack of evidence and possibility for and within biblical events.
Wait, I DON’T owe him my faith? one of you guys just told me that I DO owe my faith to him. I really wish you guys would get together and come to one decisive conclusion on how to interpret the bible. That, or stop butting on our conversations with other Christians since the argument we’re setting up really only applies to someone of a particular perspective and obviously won’t apply nearly as well to someone who interprets the bible differently. /tirade
I don’t believe in your God because I can’t believe in your God. I see no real evidence for it. I could pretend I believe, but that’s about it. It’s the same as gravity, I’m compelled to believe in gravity because I see evidence for it and it personally affects me. At best, I can pretend to deny it. I’m telling you right now I am absolutely open to conversion if you can convince me.
[quote]
There is only one God, muslims follow the Creator one, two, you don’t have to follow him, ever. So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
From YOUR perspective there is only one God. To me, I see a whole list of em to choose from, each with about as much reason to choose as the next. I wouldn’t want to choose your God and end up in Aztec Hell, so you’ll understand why I’m not going to just take your word for it.
Don’t bother playing the victim, you guys haven’t been nearly civil and mature enough throughout this debate to complain that I’m badgering and mocking you. I’ve said time and time again that I simply enjoy the sport of debate.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
I knew that’s what I was getting into when I first engaged on this thread (I believe I even said so), but now it is pretty clear that that’s all he’s here for. Particularly after it became clear that I actually agreed with his view of human origins, scientifically anyway, and he decided to continue arguing anyway. [/quote]
If you agree that men evolved from a single celled organism, doesn’t that obviate the need for believing in a god in the first place?
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
I knew that’s what I was getting into when I first engaged on this thread (I believe I even said so), but now it is pretty clear that that’s all he’s here for. Particularly after it became clear that I actually agreed with his view of human origins, scientifically anyway, and he decided to continue arguing anyway. [/quote]
If you agree that men evolved from a single celled organism, doesn’t that obviate the need for believing in a god in the first place? [/quote]
No, if anything it demands it even more…
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
I knew that’s what I was getting into when I first engaged on this thread (I believe I even said so), but now it is pretty clear that that’s all he’s here for. Particularly after it became clear that I actually agreed with his view of human origins, scientifically anyway, and he decided to continue arguing anyway. [/quote]
If you agree that men evolved from a single celled organism, doesn’t that obviate the need for believing in a god in the first place? [/quote]
I know this is a bit of a cop-out, but I honestly do not have the time to get into this right now. So I will leave you with a link from newadvent.org and the money quote at the end. The article itself is pretty short.
To what extent is the theory of evolution applicable to man? That God should have made use of natural, evolutionary, original causes in the production of man’s body, is per se not improbable, and was propounded by St. Augustine (see AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, SAINT, under V. Augustinism in History). The actual proofs of the descent of man’s body from animals is, however, inadequate, especially in respect to paleontology. And the human soul could not have been derived through natural evolution from that of the brute, since it is of a spiritual nature; for which reason we must refer its origin to a creative act on the part of God.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Actually, he didn’t do his part, that’s my point. If he did what was needed to convince me, then I’d be convinced. He’s known since the beginning of time what must be done to convince me, and he’s gone out of his way before to do “trained monkey” tricks to convince others so I guess he just doesn’t want me in Heaven.
And no, it’s not a problem for me at all. There’s never been one point in my life where I’ve thought to myself “man, if only I where a Christian right now…” and since your God doesn’t exist I’m not worried about the afterlife.
It’s not a matter of forcing me to believe in him, rather, he’s forced me to not believe in him with the overwhelming lack of evidence and possibility for and within biblical events.
Wait, I DON’T owe him my faith? one of you guys just told me that I DO owe my faith to him. I really wish you guys would get together and come to one decisive conclusion on how to interpret the bible. That, or stop butting on our conversations with other Christians since the argument we’re setting up really only applies to someone of a particular perspective and obviously won’t apply nearly as well to someone who interprets the bible differently. /tirade
I don’t believe in your God because I can’t believe in your God. I see no real evidence for it. I could pretend I believe, but that’s about it. It’s the same as gravity, I’m compelled to believe in gravity because I see evidence for it and it personally affects me. At best, I can pretend to deny it. I’m telling you right now I am absolutely open to conversion if you can convince me.
[quote]
There is only one God, muslims follow the Creator one, two, you don’t have to follow him, ever. So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
From YOUR perspective there is only one God. To me, I see a whole list of em to choose from, each with about as much reason to choose as the next. I wouldn’t want to choose your God and end up in Aztec Hell, so you’ll understand why I’m not going to just take your word for it.
Don’t bother playing the victim, you guys haven’t been nearly civil and mature enough throughout this debate to complain that I’m badgering and mocking you. I’ve said time and time again that I simply enjoy the sport of debate. [/quote]
Uh, why should God do anything special for you again? I didn’t realize you were that special. It’s not God’s job to convince you of anything. If you are genuinely interested there is troves and troves of information on God, religion and faith. Get to studying it if you really want to know. There’s just reams of info out there.
Have you lifted a finger to truly understand it? That’d be a hell no.
Instead you spend all your time looking on www.atheismismydaddy.com in order to debunk religion. You aren’t interested in faith unless your interest is to mock our inferiority, or to say something isn’t a religious tenet because science says so. All you do is look for information disparaging faith.
So tell me why should God come down and treat you special again? Why should he make a concerted effort to convince you when you haven’t done a damn thing on your own. Hell you won’t even meet him in the middle.
Oh wait you supposedly read the Bible, even though you have a weak grasp on the subject matter with in. Bet you couldn’t even tell me what Paul said about dominion and warring nations.
It isn’t God’s job to convince you of Him. If you want to know you’ll find him. If you are just going to be lazy and peruse atheist propaganda and ask dumb questions like why whales have a pelvic bone, then go on and be an atheist. God doesn’t owe you a fucking thing.
You can see all the gods you want to, but it’s logically impossible for there to be more than one.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
So why are you bothering good people unless you just want to badger and mock?[/quote]
I knew that’s what I was getting into when I first engaged on this thread (I believe I even said so), but now it is pretty clear that that’s all he’s here for. Particularly after it became clear that I actually agreed with his view of human origins, scientifically anyway, and he decided to continue arguing anyway. [/quote]
If you agree that men evolved from a single celled organism, doesn’t that obviate the need for believing in a god in the first place? [/quote]
I know this is a bit of a cop-out, but I honestly do not have the time to get into this right now. So I will leave you with a link from newadvent.org and the money quote at the end. The article itself is pretty short.
To what extent is the theory of evolution applicable to man? That God should have made use of natural, evolutionary, original causes in the production of man’s body, is per se not improbable, and was propounded by St. Augustine (see AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO, SAINT, under V. Augustinism in History). The actual proofs of the descent of man’s body from animals is, however, inadequate, especially in respect to paleontology. And the human soul could not have been derived through natural evolution from that of the brute, since it is of a spiritual nature; for which reason we must refer its origin to a creative act on the part of God.
[/quote]
I really don’t see why people think that evolution somehow makes God disappear. It just doesn’t make any sense with so much in play especially in evolution. It never tells us what life is. We can put all the parts of a body together, we cannot make it live. Hell, I believe evolution itself is a miracle and divine in nature. God not only made life, but made it adapt to ever changing situations. By all rights, life should have expired at the first climate change.
pedophilia : wrong category
homosexuality : too big / innacurate category.
ephebophilia would accurately define the attraction, but it doesn’t adequately define the acts.
the acts are abuses.
those who commit these acts are abusers.
opportunistic abusers, most of the time.
it’s not really about sexuality, it’s about power and control.
it happens among catholic priests for the same reason it happens amongst teachers. (they are “men of institution”, a priori trustworthy, and they are in charge of the children of other people).
it has nothing to do with religion or lifelong celibacy.
[quote]kamui wrote:
pedophilia : wrong category
homosexuality : too big / innacurate category.
ephebophilia would accurately define the attraction, but it doesn’t adequately define the acts.
the acts are abuses.
those who commit these acts are abusers.
opportunistic abusers, most of the time.
it’s not really about sexuality, it’s about power and control.
it happens among catholic priests for the same reason it happens amongst teachers. (they are “men of institution”, a priori trustworthy, and they are in charge of the children of other people).
it has nothing to do with religion or lifelong celibacy. [/quote]
As usual, my atheist friend, I absolutely agree with you.
except i posted that in the wrong thread 
multitasking gone bad.
it should obviously be in the “Why Get Mad at Bill Donahue?” topic. (i can’t delete my post anymore)
[quote]kamui wrote:
except i posted that in the wrong thread
multitasking gone bad.
it should obviously be in the “Why Get Mad at Bill Donahue?” topic. (i can’t delete my post anymore)[/quote]
Heh, I didn’t even notice until you pointed it out.