Why Did God Create......

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
502

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]anonfactor wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
No… I still don’t see the logical justification for sending homosexuals to Hell.
[/quote]

Uh, where in the bible does it say homosexuals are going to hell?[/quote]

Do un-repenting sinners NOT go to Hell? If homosexuals don’t go to Hell, then what’s the consequence?[/quote]

See, you actually do know the answers to these questions. It is EXACTLY correct that unrepentant sinners DO go to Hell. However, this fact also hints at duplicity on your part, or at least self-delusion. Because if you know what the word unrepentant means in the context of Christianity, then you should know that there is nothing at all sadistic by any normal measure in such a person going to Hell rather than Heaven. The reason being that you must first CHOOSE to reject God. In other words, you must consciously and with full knowledge of what you are doing choose to become an enemy of God by engaging in an act which he has expressly forbidden. Then you must die in that state.

An analogy: Bim and Ben are bitter enemies who live in the same town. All of the people in the town are poor, except for Ben, who has a magnificent palace. One winter, a wildfire rages out of control, destroying Bim’s house and crops, and burning up his life’s savings he’d hidden in his attic. He has nothing, as damage to the town is pretty much total, there is basically no one who can help him except for Ben, whose palace was untouched by the fire. Ben, being a caring person, decides to forget his differences with Bim and offers him a room and food at his palace. All he has to do is to agree in kind, to forget all past differences and accept the offer to come and stay.

However, Bim is stubborn and prideful. He will NOT put those differences aside. He will NOT accept the offer of room and sustenance. He holds on to his fear and anger, even though rejecting Ben at this time will certainly result in his death from exposure and starvation.

Now. Is Ben sadistic for not forcing Bim into his palace? Is Bim just a victim of circumstances who should be allowed full access to Ben’s palace despite any differences they have? Please tell me, what is “fair” in this scenario?
[/quote]

Well, the “Christian” thing would be for Ben to allow Bim full access to his palace without preconditions, would it not?

That said, I think I can come up with a more applicable scenario.

Let’s take Forlife, a prominent member of this board who happens to be an unrepentant homosexual.

He lives a happy life in sin with his partner and family, and by most accounts seems like a swell guy.

One day, he suffers a tragic accident during fornication (one of the aforementioned immediate consequences of sin) and dies.

Is Forlife on his way to heaven or hell in this scenario?

Aside: My apologies to Forlife for using him in this scenario without his permission. [/quote]

Always glad to be the scapegoat for morality debates :wink:

Aside from the arbitrariness of certain acts being considered sinful (which cause no harm to anyone) and certain acts being considered moral (which actually do harm people), I’m puzzled by the arbitrariness of death. If someone lives a wicked life, hurting thousands of people in the process, yet truly repents when a priest visits him on his deathbed, why should he enjoy eternal bliss compared to a “sinner” who never hurt a soul, yet was in a different hospital room and died before the priest could get to him?

Seriously?[/quote]

I figured using a familiar face, as opposed some generic archetype, would make it harder to for someone to distance themselves from their answer. Glad you’re a good sport about it.

I also agree with you, having death as a cutoff point is arbitrary, especially when you’re God and the time scale is eternity. Even when I was a Christian, I could not see a good reason for not allowing people to repent in the afterlife. And let’s not even get into the problem of hell.

503

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

…Aside from the arbitrariness of certain acts being considered sinful (which cause no harm to anyone) and certain acts being considered moral (which actually do harm people), I’m puzzled by the arbitrariness of death. If someone lives a wicked life, hurting thousands of people in the process, yet truly repents when a priest visits him on his deathbed, why should he enjoy eternal bliss compared to a “sinner” who never hurt a soul, yet was in a different hospital room and died before the priest could get to him?

Seriously?[/quote]

Ephesians 2: 8 - 9[/quote]

If people are saved through grace, why weren’t both men visited by the priest instead of only the first? [/quote]

Well, FL, you could craft shrewd hypothetical proposals until the cows came home but the bottom line is God is interested in people primarily placing their trust and faith in Him. Works are secondary and unrelated to salvation, something that follows faith.

If death gets in the way of the ensuing works in your hypothetical scenario then I guess that is a matter between that person and God, wouldn’t you say?

You claiming “arbitrariness” on the part of God is you placing yourself above God and dictating to the Almighty Creator of the universe what He should and should not be doing. [/quote]

I’m talking about death getting in the way of faith, not about death getting in the way of good works.

The first man lived an abominably evil life that hurt thousands, yet because he was fortunate to be visited by a priest one hour before his death, he embraced faith and was saved. The second man never hurt anyone, yet because the priest didn’t get to his room on time, he never got the same chance and as a result will suffer horribly for all eternity.

It seems very arbitrary to me. It’s almost as bad as Calvin’s double predestination.

If there is a just, merciful god, I don’t think it would operate in this way.

506

[quote]pushharder wrote:
You can bitch and moan about how “unfair” God is all you want. That is in its essence, defiance and unbelief, and something you get to take up with God all by yourself. He has spelled out His plan, made it simple, exemplified His Mercy and YOU know it and understand it to the extent that any of us with a finite intellect can.

You would do well to take what God has revealed to YOU and deal with it and not worry so much about hypothetical bad guys on hypothetical deathbeds being visited, or not, by hypothetical priests.

Or you could continue to let it vex you so as is obvious on the forum and live your life a miserable man with no purpose.[/quote]

It’s the belief in a god that operates in this arbitrary way that I find puzzling. It seems that you have no answer either, except that it is god’s will. Sounds a lot to me like Tiribulus’s response when challenged on double predestination.

I’m not sure why you’re characterizing me as a miserable man with no purpose, unless to reinforce your belief that people who don’t share your religious views must be miserable and without purpose :slight_smile:

507

Because every story needs a bad guy?

509

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
No… I still don’t see the logical justification for sending homosexuals to Hell.
[/quote]

Uh, where in the bible does it say homosexuals are going to hell?[/quote]

Do un-repenting sinners NOT go to Hell? If homosexuals don’t go to Hell, then what’s the consequence?[/quote]

See, you actually do know the answers to these questions. It is EXACTLY correct that unrepentant sinners DO go to Hell. However, this fact also hints at duplicity on your part, or at least self-delusion. Because if you know what the word unrepentant means in the context of Christianity, then you should know that there is nothing at all sadistic by any normal measure in such a person going to Hell rather than Heaven. The reason being that you must first CHOOSE to reject God. In other words, you must consciously and with full knowledge of what you are doing choose to become an enemy of God by engaging in an act which he has expressly forbidden. Then you must die in that state.

An analogy: Bim and Ben are bitter enemies who live in the same town. All of the people in the town are poor, except for Ben, who has a magnificent palace. One winter, a wildfire rages out of control, destroying Bim’s house and crops, and burning up his life’s savings he’d hidden in his attic. He has nothing, as damage to the town is pretty much total, there is basically no one who can help him except for Ben, whose palace was untouched by the fire. Ben, being a caring person, decides to forget his differences with Bim and offers him a room and food at his palace. All he has to do is to agree in kind, to forget all past differences and accept the offer to come and stay.

However, Bim is stubborn and prideful. He will NOT put those differences aside. He will NOT accept the offer of room and sustenance. He holds on to his fear and anger, even though rejecting Ben at this time will certainly result in his death from exposure and starvation.

Now. Is Ben sadistic for not forcing Bim into his palace? Is Bim just a victim of circumstances who should be allowed full access to Ben’s palace despite any differences they have? Please tell me, what is “fair” in this scenario?
[/quote]

Actually, a deliberate act of not repenting is to snub God which actually, a resistance of Grace when grace is freely offered which is in the realm of Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

If you are laying on your death bed and you deliberately give God the finger, he didn’t send you to hell, you asked to go there.
Would you want somebody at your house that doesn’t want to be there? [/quote]

This is exactly my point, thank you, Pat.

I’ll get to your posts later, anonfactor. Good to see you, too.

510

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
You can bitch and moan about how “unfair” God is all you want. That is in its essence, defiance and unbelief, and something you get to take up with God all by yourself. He has spelled out His plan, made it simple, exemplified His Mercy and YOU know it and understand it to the extent that any of us with a finite intellect can.

You would do well to take what God has revealed to YOU and deal with it and not worry so much about hypothetical bad guys on hypothetical deathbeds being visited, or not, by hypothetical priests.

Or you could continue to let it vex you so as is obvious on the forum and live your life a miserable man with no purpose.[/quote]

It’s the belief in a god that operates in this arbitrary way that I find puzzling. It seems that you have no answer either, except that it is god’s will. Sounds a lot to me like Tiribulus’s response when challenged on double predestination.

I’m not sure why you’re characterizing me as a miserable man with no purpose, unless to reinforce your belief that people who don’t share your religious views must be miserable and without purpose :)[/quote]

It’s not arbitrary. It’s very clear and logical. We are warned multiple times in the Bible thus: Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee.

Again, this is an extension of the point I’ve been making throughout this entire thread. God made absolutely everything, including the rules. Then he gave us the rules. Sometimes we don’t know why a rule exists, but we are still bound to follow it. You don’t see people making these arguments against gravity. Talking about how unfair gravity is. All of us should be able to fly where ever we want, when we want, and then to take advantage of the weight granting properties of gravity when we want, as well.

So, break the rules, pay the consequences if you are truly unrepentant. I don’t see how you guys don’t see the other side of this. It’s not, OMG like Hitler was sooooo bad and if he just said the magic words before he died he’d go to Heaven and Ghandi wouldn’t.

This demonstrates, rather, exactly how patient and loving God truly is, and how human you are. In that, so long as we just ask and mean it, no matter how damned bad we have been, anybody can be forgiven. You don’t see the beauty in that?

511

One more point about the comments that it seems unfair that someone who dies of cancer will have a much better opportunity to get into Heaven than someone who dies when a piano falls on his head from a 10th story apartment: Who is to say that God does not grant all of us the opportunity to make that choice at the moment of death? There are certain people who believe this and they have a decent argument that this may be true.

I sure wouldn’t bet the farm on it, though.

512

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Tig, baby, you have NOT read the Bible several times if AT ALL. That much is plainly obvious.

Rarely do I agree with Mak on PWI but he was dead-on correctomundo in regards to you speaking with forked tongue, Geronimo.[/quote]

I’ve read the bible twice in it’s entirety and then in bits and pieces since. I really don’t see what I’ve said that suggests I haven’t even read the book once… -_-

My guess is this is an accusation you guys make often simply to make your opponents out to be too ignorant to have a valid point. [/quote]

Saying ignorant ass shit like this:
"I know that the bible doesn’t specifically say “no Sunday labour”, it’s called the “Sabbath” and I know that some people say the Sabbath is Saturday, since that is the actual seventh day whereas Sunday is the first… the actual day itself is unimportant. The point is why does any such day need to be where working can earn you a spot in Hell? "

Makes it difficult to believe you know anything about the bible you haven’t picked up on www.athiestcirclejerk.org.

The bible makes no mention of Saturday Sabbath either, nor did it ever make mention of anyone violating it going to hell. Don’t believe me?
Give me the book and verse and I will email you a cookie.[/quote]

Well, the “day of rest” was the seventh day, which is Saturday. If you don’t consider the original seven days to be literal (I wouldn’t), then it doesn’t really matter which day you do it on. This makes sense to me since Jews held the Sabbath on Saturday while Christians changed it to Sunday and God hasn’t corrected anyone yet, so it seems that God doesn’t care which day you put it on, so long as it gets done.

It IS, however, one of the ten commandments. If consistently breaking this rule without repenting doesn’t get you into Hell, then what would?[/quote]

See this is why we suspect you of actually not reading the bible. First the Sabbath is Friday evening to Saturday evening currently. The Law books did not specify the day, because in the ye olde days holidays ended in Sabbaths like the feast of Booths or pass over, the Sabbath actually moved around the week. That was because after a holiday Sabbath, the next Sabbath was 6 more days away.

Breaking the sabbath repeatedly is a sin, but how God judges, we don’t know. We know what you said was in the bible, is not in the bible.[/quote]

… this really isn’t in contrast to what I said. I assumed in my last post that since God hasn’t corrected anyone, it stands to reason that he doesn’t particularly care what day it’s done on, so long as it gets done. This follows given what you’ve said about the Sabbath moving around depending on the week.

I think it’s safe to assume that un-repenting repeat sinners end up in Hell under normal circumstances. I mean, the average person goes through 4500 weeks of life. That means a guy like me will break one of God’s 10 commandments 4500 times (give or take). Unless God is far more lenient in the after life then he has been with us here, it’s pretty clear that God isn’t letting me in Heaven.

513

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
No… I still don’t see the logical justification for sending homosexuals to Hell.
[/quote]

Uh, where in the bible does it say homosexuals are going to hell?[/quote]

Do un-repenting sinners NOT go to Hell? If homosexuals don’t go to Hell, then what’s the consequence?[/quote]

I just said it’s not in the Bible. The act of homosexuality is a sin, being attracted to the same sex is not. However, how God judges we don’t know. That’s between that person and God and noone else.[/quote]

Then, unless God wants to correct me, I’m going to assume that God isn’t letting sexually active homosexuals into Heaven, especially un-repenting ones.

514

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
So you couldn’t find it, eh? Please refer to this post and refrain from pulling the victim card in the future when you are accused of not having read the Bible as you claimed. [/quote]

All right, first, I never said it could be found. I know not everyone goes by the “Sunday” Sabbath, but that’s the common understanding and everyone knows what I’m talking about when I say “Sunday”. Not so had I said “Saturday”. Second, the only “victim card” I’ve pulled is at the ridiculous ad hominem attacks made on me in lieu of an actual argument.

Yeah, no I did get that the first time, I just thought I missed something because that’s stupid.

So, if I’m clear on this; “God”=“good” and “good”=“burn the queers”, therefore God burns queers… If God’s version of “good” is this, then God has one fucked up sense of morality. If this is “good”, then “good” is sadistic, ugly and nonsensical. If God’s only reason for making homosexuality a sin is “It’s in my nature to hate the gays, and I’m good, therefore being gay is immoral…”, then God seem more interested in his own ego than in logic.

And before you say it, yes I know there is more to God’s sense of “good” than condemning homosexuals.

I guess this is where our conversation ends. There simply can be no further debate when you define that which is moral by everything God says and does, unquestioned. I can point to all the killings God has ordered/carried out, but if you are just going to say God is good because God is good, there’s no point so I’m done. I’m not going to argue circular logic. [/quote]

You say you are getting it, but you are most certainly not.

Again: The ACT of FORNICATION is the issue.I know it makes it sound like you have a point when you throw around phrases like “burn the queers,” but you don’t.

There are a whole host of reasons why the sex act outside of marriage is prohibited that have both immediate and collateral societal consequences. They make sense when viewed without the lens of immediate selfish individual personal gratification fogging one’s perception of the issues.

But first,we are assuming a Christian cosmos, are we not?
[/quote]

So God has no problem with married homosexuals?

And yes, I’m arguing within the context of a Christian cosmos.

515

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
No… I still don’t see the logical justification for sending homosexuals to Hell.
[/quote]

Uh, where in the bible does it say homosexuals are going to hell?[/quote]

Do un-repenting sinners NOT go to Hell? If homosexuals don’t go to Hell, then what’s the consequence?[/quote]

See, you actually do know the answers to these questions. It is EXACTLY correct that unrepentant sinners DO go to Hell. However, this fact also hints at duplicity on your part, or at least self-delusion. Because if you know what the word unrepentant means in the context of Christianity, then you should know that there is nothing at all sadistic by any normal measure in such a person going to Hell rather than Heaven. The reason being that you must first CHOOSE to reject God. In other words, you must consciously and with full knowledge of what you are doing choose to become an enemy of God by engaging in an act which he has expressly forbidden. Then you must die in that state.

An analogy: Bim and Ben are bitter enemies who live in the same town. All of the people in the town are poor, except for Ben, who has a magnificent palace. One winter, a wildfire rages out of control, destroying Bim’s house and crops, and burning up his life’s savings he’d hidden in his attic. He has nothing, as damage to the town is pretty much total, there is basically no one who can help him except for Ben, whose palace was untouched by the fire. Ben, being a caring person, decides to forget his differences with Bim and offers him a room and food at his palace. All he has to do is to agree in kind, to forget all past differences and accept the offer to come and stay.

However, Bim is stubborn and prideful. He will NOT put those differences aside. He will NOT accept the offer of room and sustenance. He holds on to his fear and anger, even though rejecting Ben at this time will certainly result in his death from exposure and starvation.

Now. Is Ben sadistic for not forcing Bim into his palace? Is Bim just a victim of circumstances who should be allowed full access to Ben’s palace despite any differences they have? Please tell me, what is “fair” in this scenario?
[/quote]

So, will God allow me into Heaven regardless of what I do now so long as I repent on my deathbed?

516

Something else I’ve been thinking about… God dealt out a lot of punishment in the OT, but doesn’t do any of that now. What’s the dealio? I know the whole point of Jesus coming was to save us from God’s wrath, but for those of us who don’t accept Jesus, why isn’t God still murdering us? If we don’t agree to the loophole he gave us then we’re really in no different standing than any heathen God cracked down on 3000 years ago. I’m sure if God went old school on us, you’d see a lot more assess in church pews. Does God not care any more?

A side note for Cortes, if everything God does in moral by definition, then why did he bother sending Jesus to take on our punishment for us? If his punishment is moral, then there’s no need to give us a loophole. Is God himself displeased with his own morality?

519

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

…Aside from the arbitrariness of certain acts being considered sinful (which cause no harm to anyone) and certain acts being considered moral (which actually do harm people), I’m puzzled by the arbitrariness of death. If someone lives a wicked life, hurting thousands of people in the process, yet truly repents when a priest visits him on his deathbed, why should he enjoy eternal bliss compared to a “sinner” who never hurt a soul, yet was in a different hospital room and died before the priest could get to him?

Seriously?[/quote]

Ephesians 2: 8 - 9[/quote]

If people are saved through grace, why weren’t both men visited by the priest instead of only the first? [/quote]

Second one didn’t call?

520

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
You can bitch and moan about how “unfair” God is all you want. That is in its essence, defiance and unbelief, and something you get to take up with God all by yourself. He has spelled out His plan, made it simple, exemplified His Mercy and YOU know it and understand it to the extent that any of us with a finite intellect can.

You would do well to take what God has revealed to YOU and deal with it and not worry so much about hypothetical bad guys on hypothetical deathbeds being visited, or not, by hypothetical priests.

Or you could continue to let it vex you so as is obvious on the forum and live your life a miserable man with no purpose.[/quote]

It’s the belief in a god that operates in this arbitrary way that I find puzzling. It seems that you have no answer either, except that it is god’s will. Sounds a lot to me like Tiribulus’s response when challenged on double predestination.

[/quote]

Ha! You think there are perfect answers for everything? I think not, my friend.

I completely agree we don’t have perfect answers for everything. In the absence of perfect answers, I prefer to admit my ignorance rather than accepting answers that I want to be true but don’t actually know are true. In my opinion, the very existence of a god is one of those things for which we don’t have a perfect answer.

And no, I’m not vexed :slight_smile: I enjoy these discussions and especially appreciate when they are constructive and mutually respectful (this discussion being a good example).