Why Did God Create Satan - Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

  • Note: I certainly understand Tirib’s position[/quote]

As I do share his position, I can certainly understand. >>>[/quote]Is this a typo? Did you actually mean you “don’t” share my position? What position actually? I’m asking honestly. I don’t think I follow. This’l stay here btw. I also hope you don’t leave PWI. Despite everything I do have enormous respect for you and when skimming pages ALWAYS stop to read your posts. I
[/quote]

When Push’s lifestyle (I assume that’s what he’s referring to) came up, I made clear my disagreement and put forward my argument. So, we share the same view of his beliefs. Now, as I don’t see any connection to politics, I’m content with moving on. He knows my position, and I know his. Further debate would go nowhere. Well, besides devolving into a crap smearing contest. Basically, I feel like the “you chose the wrong sect,” or, “you’re a heretic” stuff doesn’t belong here. Trust me, I feel the same about your protestantism, as you do my about my Catholicism, using us two as an example. So, how about those green jobs failing? See what I did there?

Originally, I meant only that I was removing myself from participating in the argument. Thanks for asking me to stay, though. However, thinking about it, maybe a break is needed. Maybe when the race really starts heating up. Maybe not. For now, the progressives have all but given up, the libertarians/socialist can’t be bothered to step out of their utopian fantasies, and you guys have some kind of sectarian thing going on. And BC, well, BC is keeping PWI informed about who’ll be serving at the altar, of one particular denomination…in PWI.

I just realized how over this forum I am…No worries folks, I don’t intend on letting the door make contact with my backside. In leaving, I’d like to do so by imparting one last message. Something profound, and worthy of at least some consideration. It is this;

                  When one has tr
64

[quote]pushharder wrote:<<< You’re a liar, Yosemite T. That’s not what you said. (To the best of my knowledge. Go back and copy and paste, YT, and prove me wrong)
Sure thing, bub.

(I am not even remotely Catholic but I can’t stand to see lying go unchecked on this forum)[/quote]The conversation he’s referring to, if it’s even the one I’m thinking of, happened like late last year sometime or maybe early this year. Before you blindly pounce in your self preserving efforts at showing me a liar, it would help to have a clue what’s goin on. This goofy challenge of his has been ongoing for months. "OOH OOH OOH, you said “if any Catholics are saved it’s by the extreme grace of God”. (I don’t remember ever using the word extreme, but ok) If ANYBODY’S saved it’s by the extreme grace of God. Sheesh. That’s controversial? What I just told him in response is far more so. Like I said, I don’t run from anything I say.

Go ahead. My posting history is there for all to see. Show where I have ever deceived anyone by design. I dare ya. I doubt if even Elder Forlife or Ephrem or Mike etc. or any of my Catholic opponents here would do that. Except Pat who comes unglued whenever I’m the object of his attention. You’re late to this game.

One day you just may understand that my problem with you is your outrageous allegedly biblical claim on the same Jesus Christ held as Lord and Savior by the church universal from ancient times in the face of her exception-less testimony to the contrary. Just like every other flagrantly heretical cult. Kamui is every bit the whore you are, but a thousand times less guilty because he does not attempt to marry the thrice holy God to his whoredom in breathtaking defiance of every Christian communion in history. Forgive me Push, but I’ll take the uniform witness and reverent divinely appointed scholarship of the multitude of champions of the faith that grace the pages of history over some foul mouthed forum dweller and his stand alone libertine 20th century pornographic prophet.

I won’t be following you around, but where the necessity arises my God and His Christ need to be defended from you more than any of the other God hating pagans around here because they do not reproach and dishonor His name and covenants. You’ll call that hate though it’s anything but. If you are not a 1st Corinthians 5 case then the chapter was written to no purpose.

65

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< When one has tr [/quote]? Clearly I am not as informed as you are =] What does this mean?

I do enthusiastically reiterate my hope that you stick around. I must say that I side with Cortes and Pat though. Religion IS a world issue. For myself I started one thread and it was about the gospel and racism. I think I’ve changed a bit on the idea of all this heated controversy being necessarily bad as well. That’s another topic though.

66

[quote]forlife wrote:
To be certain about anything, you must know everything.
[/quote]

Sounds like junk theory and an awful assumption. By that I mean skepticism.

67

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here. But like Sloth, I have realized, as Sloth, that I’m tired of the forum. I am not here for what I used to come for. Argument for argument’s sake. Waste of time.

Sorry for inconveniencing anyone.

68

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?

69

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< When one has tr [/quote]? Clearly I am not as informed as you are =] What does this mean?

I do enthusiastically reiterate my hope that you stick around. I must say that I side with Cortes and Pat though. Religion IS a world issue. For myself I started one thread and it was about the gospel and racism. I think I’ve changed a bit on the idea of all this heated controversy being necessarily bad as well. That’s another topic though.
[/quote]

When one has truth…fill in the blank.

70

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?[/quote]

Matters in what way you are using it.

71

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
To be certain about anything, you must know everything.
[/quote]<<< Sounds like junk theory and an awful assumption. By that I mean skepticism. [/quote]Brother Chris just dove onto a six foot by six foot sheet of flypaper… face down… naked… [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< When one has truth…fill in the blank.[/quote]I must be especially dense this morning. I still don’t think I get the point. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Matters in what way you are using it.[/quote]You are however exactly right about this if you are here referring to jealousy. He asked you, so I’ll let you finish.

72

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Here, let me wrap this whole thing up with one post.

—Maximum posts (half of which involve Tirib and Pat ripping each other) reached, and not a single one has any practical bearing on either politics or world issues.—[/quote]

I can wrap it up better: there’s no such thing as satan.

I have not had time to go through all the posts but at a glance there is some advanced and confusing stuff being discussed. To the people making these posts: do you actually believe in some dude with a goatee and pitch fork walking around the fires of hell?

73

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?[/quote]

Matters in what way you are using it.[/quote]

God claims to be a jealous God. Envy is one of the “Seven deadly sins”. So, is god’s jealousy different from envy? How so?

74

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?[/quote]

Matters in what way you are using it.[/quote]

God claims to be a jealous God. Envy is one of the “Seven deadly sins”. So, is god’s jealousy different from envy? How so?[/quote]

Yes, in this case it is much different than envy.

Jealousy or Envy is the sorrow which one entertains at another’s well-being because of a view that one’s own excellence is in consequence lessened.

Basically, you get a promotion and I carry disdain because I see your promotion as taking away from me.

God being a jealous God, this isn’t what is going on.

You have to take the principle of the covenant, he promised through Moses to the Israelites that he would be their God and they would be his People and worship no other god and he would have no other people. Of course the condition of this covenant in which he gave himself to the Isrealites is that they follow God’s laws and commandments. We can tell it is a covenant because of the sign which bestows it–the Passover in which God forms his family into a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

Now, when God says he is a jealous God, he is referring to himself as he refers to himself during the first chapter in Genesis, with his covenant with Adam as mediator, as a husband and the Isrealites as his wife. Now, when a man and woman come together they make a covenant (and they consummate the covenant); one gives the other themselves fully as the other does the same. This is in the understanding that no others will be introduced into this union. But, like a husband, who does so justly, when his wife commits adultery, he becomes jealous. She has broken the covenant as the Isrealites broke the covenant with God.

This is what Moses is referring to when he writes that God is a jealous God. He does not tolerate his wife, the Israelites, when they break the covenant. Not that he thinks that when they worship a false god that something of his excellence is taken away.

Simply, when Moses refers to God being jealous he is referring to a righteous indignation and not a sinful behavior.

75

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?[/quote]

Matters in what way you are using it.[/quote]

God claims to be a jealous God. Envy is one of the “Seven deadly sins”. So, is god’s jealousy different from envy? How so?[/quote]

Yes, in this case it is much different than envy.

Jealousy or Envy is the sorrow which one entertains at another’s well-being because of a view that one’s own excellence is in consequence lessened.

Basically, you get a promotion and I carry disdain because I see your promotion as taking away from me.

God being a jealous God, this isn’t what is going on.

You have to take the principle of the covenant, he promised through Moses to the Israelites that he would be their God and they would be his People and worship no other god and he would have no other people. Of course the condition of this covenant in which he gave himself to the Isrealites is that they follow God’s laws and commandments. We can tell it is a covenant because of the sign which bestows it–the Passover in which God forms his family into a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

Now, when God says he is a jealous God, he is referring to himself as he refers to himself during the first chapter in Genesis, with his covenant with Adam as mediator, as a husband and the Isrealites as his wife. Now, when a man and woman come together they make a covenant (and they consummate the covenant); one gives the other themselves fully as the other does the same. This is in the understanding that no others will be introduced into this union. But, like a husband, who does so justly, when his wife commits adultery, he becomes jealous. She has broken the covenant as the Isrealites broke the covenant with God.

This is what Moses is referring to when he writes that God is a jealous God. He does not tolerate his wife, the Israelites, when they break the covenant. Not that he thinks that when they worship a false god that something of his excellence is taken away.

Simply, when Moses refers to God being jealous he is referring to a righteous indignation and not a sinful behavior.[/quote]

So, if I understand you, being “jealous” in the sense that God is a jealous God is not a sin. I’m glad to see there isn’t a double-standard here.

However, I have a few more questions about God’s “perfect morality”. I’m talking about 2 Kings 2:23-25, where Elisha damns some children who made fun of him for being bald, so God sends 2 bears to murder the 42 children.

For lack of a more eloquent way of phrasing this question; what’s up with that?? Was this “moral”?

76

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?[/quote]

Matters in what way you are using it.[/quote]

God claims to be a jealous God. Envy is one of the “Seven deadly sins”. So, is god’s jealousy different from envy? How so?[/quote]

Yes, in this case it is much different than envy.

Jealousy or Envy is the sorrow which one entertains at another’s well-being because of a view that one’s own excellence is in consequence lessened.

Basically, you get a promotion and I carry disdain because I see your promotion as taking away from me.

God being a jealous God, this isn’t what is going on.

You have to take the principle of the covenant, he promised through Moses to the Israelites that he would be their God and they would be his People and worship no other god and he would have no other people. Of course the condition of this covenant in which he gave himself to the Isrealites is that they follow God’s laws and commandments. We can tell it is a covenant because of the sign which bestows it–the Passover in which God forms his family into a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

Now, when God says he is a jealous God, he is referring to himself as he refers to himself during the first chapter in Genesis, with his covenant with Adam as mediator, as a husband and the Isrealites as his wife. Now, when a man and woman come together they make a covenant (and they consummate the covenant); one gives the other themselves fully as the other does the same. This is in the understanding that no others will be introduced into this union. But, like a husband, who does so justly, when his wife commits adultery, he becomes jealous. She has broken the covenant as the Isrealites broke the covenant with God.

This is what Moses is referring to when he writes that God is a jealous God. He does not tolerate his wife, the Israelites, when they break the covenant. Not that he thinks that when they worship a false god that something of his excellence is taken away.

Simply, when Moses refers to God being jealous he is referring to a righteous indignation and not a sinful behavior.[/quote]

So, if I understand you, being “jealous” in the sense that God is a jealous God is not a sin. I’m glad to see there isn’t a double-standard here.

However, I have a few more questions about God’s “perfect morality”. I’m talking about 2 Kings 2:23-25, where Elisha damns some children who made fun of him for being bald, so God sends 2 bears to murder the 42 children.

For lack of a more eloquent way of phrasing this question; what’s up with that?? Was this “moral”?[/quote]

I’ll go into that later, but I’ll give you a clue: it has to do with the covenant.

77

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
BC, where you at, dawg? Where missing out on all the fun =([/quote]

Right here.[/quote]

Ah, finally. Anyway, I believe I had last asked you if there was a difference between jealousy and envy. You’re answer?[/quote]

Matters in what way you are using it.[/quote]

God claims to be a jealous God. Envy is one of the “Seven deadly sins”. So, is god’s jealousy different from envy? How so?[/quote]

Yes, in this case it is much different than envy.

Jealousy or Envy is the sorrow which one entertains at another’s well-being because of a view that one’s own excellence is in consequence lessened.

Basically, you get a promotion and I carry disdain because I see your promotion as taking away from me.

God being a jealous God, this isn’t what is going on.

You have to take the principle of the covenant, he promised through Moses to the Israelites that he would be their God and they would be his People and worship no other god and he would have no other people. Of course the condition of this covenant in which he gave himself to the Isrealites is that they follow God’s laws and commandments. We can tell it is a covenant because of the sign which bestows it–the Passover in which God forms his family into a holy nation, a kingdom of priests.

Now, when God says he is a jealous God, he is referring to himself as he refers to himself during the first chapter in Genesis, with his covenant with Adam as mediator, as a husband and the Isrealites as his wife. Now, when a man and woman come together they make a covenant (and they consummate the covenant); one gives the other themselves fully as the other does the same. This is in the understanding that no others will be introduced into this union. But, like a husband, who does so justly, when his wife commits adultery, he becomes jealous. She has broken the covenant as the Isrealites broke the covenant with God.

This is what Moses is referring to when he writes that God is a jealous God. He does not tolerate his wife, the Israelites, when they break the covenant. Not that he thinks that when they worship a false god that something of his excellence is taken away.

Simply, when Moses refers to God being jealous he is referring to a righteous indignation and not a sinful behavior.[/quote]

So, if I understand you, being “jealous” in the sense that God is a jealous God is not a sin. I’m glad to see there isn’t a double-standard here.

However, I have a few more questions about God’s “perfect morality”. I’m talking about 2 Kings 2:23-25, where Elisha damns some children who made fun of him for being bald, so God sends 2 bears to murder the 42 children.

For lack of a more eloquent way of phrasing this question; what’s up with that?? Was this “moral”?[/quote]

I’ll go into that later, but I’ll give you a clue: it has to do with the covenant.[/quote]

K

78

So, I did some studying before I answered this question.

The over all distinguishing between why they were smote or cursed as the verse says is because of the covenant. With a covenant there are blessings and there are curses. When you break the covenant, it is to be understood that you shall suffer the curses and not receive the blessings.

The covenant that matters here, is mediated by Moses between the Lord and Isrealites.

There is more to it than the children making fun of Elisha. They were the children (not so young they didn’t know what they were doing) Bethel. Bethel being the chief seat of the calf-worship.

So there could be several different reasons why when Elisha cursed them that God killed them:

  1. Zeal for religion, God was determined to punish those of Bethel because they raised their child up to hate the true religion and the ministers.
  2. So that “that the people might learn to take care of their souls, by the fear of death.” (St. Augustine)

The children likely did this, though knowing what they do, but by the instigation of their idolatrous parents.

These people broke the covenant, the curses were to bestowed on them. They were no longer the people of God, so much so that they encouraged their own children to mock the ministers of the people of God.

79

There’s also some dispute as to the translation of the word na’ar, which in Hebrew was also used to describe men up to 30 and 40 years of age, I’ve heard up to 50. Some discussion here:

[i]Here is a commentary from John Gill:

there came forth little children out of the city;

the word for “children” is used of persons of thirty or forty years of age; and though these are said to be “little”, they were so well grown as to be able to go forth out of the city of themselves, without any to guide them, or to take care of them; and were of an age capable not only of taking notice of Elijah’s baldness, but knew him to be a prophet, and were able to distinguish between good and evil; and, from a malignant spirit in them, mocked at him as such, and at the assumption of Elijah; which they had knowledge of, and to whom, taught by their idolatrous parents, they had an aversion: some Jewish writers F24 say, they were called “Naarim”, which we render “children”, because shaken from the commandments, or had shaken off the yoke of the commands; and “little”, because they were of little faith:

and mocked him, and said unto him, go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head;

meaning not up the hill to Bethel, where his coming was not desirable to the greater part in it, being idolaters; and perhaps these children were sent out to intimidate him with their flouts and jeers from entering there; but having heard of Elijah going up to heaven, as was said, they jeeringly bid him go up to heaven after him, and then they should have a good riddance of them both; thus at the same time mocking at him for his baldness, and making a jest of the wondrous work of God, the assumption of Elijah; which, with behaving so irreverently to an hoary head, a prophet of the Lord, was very heinous and wicked, and therefore what befell them need not be wondered at.

And he turned back, and looked on them

With a stern countenance, thereby reproving them, and in order to intimidate them, and make them ashamed, and cause them to leave off, but to no purpose; they repeated their mockeries with great vehemence:

and cursed them in the name of the Lord;

moved thereunto, not from passion and a spirit of revenge, but by an impulse of the Spirit of God:

and there came forth two she bears out of the wood;

which are fiercest, and especially when bereaved of their whelps, as these might be; the wood seems to be near to Bethel, perhaps in the wilderness of Bethel, of which see ( Joshua 8:15 ) ( 18:12 ) , and Reland F25 thinks it is the same with the wood of Ephraim, ( 2 Samuel 18:6 ) , though the Jews, to increase the miracle, say F26 there was no wood at all, and, if there was, that there were no bears in it; but though those creatures are mostly in northern countries, yet there were of them in Judea, see ( 1 Samuel 17:34 )

and tare forty and two children of them;

it seems there were more than these; but such a number of them they tore to pieces and destroyed; which was very extraordinary, and was an awful punishment for their wickedness, which they knowingly and willingly committed, and of their parents in them, who had trained them up in such impiety, and put them upon it, and sent them out to do it.

Hope that helps explain it. It is really a moral lesson regarding the consequences of evil and wickedness.[/i]

Context context context.

80

I wanted to take this opportunity to compliment my friend Cortes on his choice of John Gill, a thoroughgoing Calvinist Protestant, (rock ribbed reformed baptist actually, like just about all baptists once were) as his preferred expert witness on this topic. =] Well done sir.