Why Bush Won

Prof:

It’s the old liberal excuse for killing the unborn: “These children will grow up unwanted…They’ll be poor…neglected yada yada yada.” Oh, so you better kill them first before any of that really bad stuff happens right? How would you treat a broken arm? Would you amputate?

Society backing this procedure is shameful. Not having at least the opportunity to exist is on the bet that your life won’t be very pleasant is nonsense. Not much worse than getting your head ripped off as you sleep in your mothers womb.

Here is a news flash: There are tens of thousands of couples who would love to adopt that child! Is it just to much trouble for that woman to take that pregnancy full term? Is that to much to ask someone who has obviously made the decision to have sex? (Don’t give me that rape and incest line either as that constitutes about .001% of all abortions). Will those 9 months be so difficult that it’s worth killing that unborn child? How confused we have become in this country when we give a woman the right to take a life rather than to temporarily upset her lifestyle.

It’s my hope that President Bush has the opportunity to place three strong (unafraid) conservative justices on the the Supreme Court. Goodbye Roe Vs Wade!

Liberals…(shaking head) they will never get it!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
The clear argument here is you are trying to make it seem as if someone who has lived a life has the same rights as a group of cells that has the potential of becoming a human being.[/quote]

Do these groups of cells have distinguishable, unique DNA? Then it is a human. Unless I’m mistaken, one can’t interchange DNA between species, whether they have distinguishable traits, or not. Therefore, professor, it would be my contention that this group of cells is a human as soon as it is distinguishable that it is reproducing cells with unique DNA.

I’d refer to my answer up above. Sperm is half of the reproductive miracle called conception. Alone, it is a cell - incapable of reproducing on its own. I’m not a scientsit, or a doctor, but doesn’t a sperm only have 1/2 the required genetic material required to spawn life?
If you are trying to use absurdity to further your position - it’s just looking stupid, to me.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Prof:

It’s the old liberal excuse for killing the unborn: “These children will grow up unwanted…They’ll be poor…neglected yada yada yada.” Oh, so you better kill them first before any of that really bad stuff happens right? How would you treat a broken arm? Would you amputate?

Society backing this procedure is shameful. Not having at least the opportunity to exist is on the bet that your life won’t be very pleasant is nonsense. Not much worse than getting your head ripped off as you sleep in your mothers womb.

Here is a news flash: There are tens of thousands of couples who would love to adopt that child! Is it just to much trouble for that woman to take that pregnancy full term? Is that to much to ask someone who has obviously made the decision to have sex? (Don’t give me that rape and incest line either as that constitutes about .001% of all abortions). Will those 9 months be so difficult that it’s worth killing that unborn child? How confused we have become in this country when we give a woman the right to take a life rather than to temporarily upset her lifestyle.

It’s my hope that President Bush has the opportunity to place three strong (unafraid) conservative justices on the the Supreme Court. Goodbye Roe Vs Wade!

Liberals…(shaking head) they will never get it![/quote]

First, the comment that there are “tens of thousands” of couples who want a child that they can’t have is only valid if just as many parents want kids as there are kids without homes. Beyond that, you have this habit of skimming my posts and then writing some “nearly but not quite” related response. Why not address the points I made specifically? Are you giving to child specific charities the same emotion you are to this? Do you believe in abstinence? Have you ever had unprotected sex in your life with someone who you were not planning on having a long term relationship with? These are all things I would like to know from those who cry that no woman should have a choice as far as her own body. The argument that this view is “liberal” is getting old. I don’t label myself a liberal and don’t even know the views held by “liberals”. It is as if many of you use that term to immediately discredit whatever the other poster is typing.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I’d refer to my answer up above. Sperm is half of the reproductive miracle called conception. Alone, it is a cell - incapable of reproducing on its own. I’m not a scientsit, or a doctor, but doesn’t a sperm only have 1/2 the required genetic material required to spawn life?
If you are trying to use absurdity to further your position - it’s just looking stupid, to me.

[/quote]

It is half the cell, and during the act of sex, it will come in contact with the other half that will create a human being. So you don’t believe in the morning after pill? If you have sex and the girl immediately takes something that prevents her from geting pregnant within 24 hours, you also call this a “murder”? If so, then it is not that absurd to make the leap that the same person with that view should be against contraception. Just like you say that sperm and the egg are incapable of growth therefore they are not human, no human fetus can grow without a womb. They can not grow on their own which does bring the desires and wishes of the mother into play.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Do these groups of cells have distinguishable, unique DNA? Then it is a human. [/quote]

By the way, if you truly believe every chracteristic of this line of thinking, then a mitochondria (which also has a unique structure of DNA within your own cells and can also replicate on it’s own) should be treated with the same respect as a human being. Because of that one factor, you can not use DNA as a baseline to justify your stance on abortion. Nice try though.

Do these groups of cells have distinguishable, unique DNA? Then it is a human. Unless I’m mistaken, one can’t interchange DNA between species, whether they have distinguishable traits, or not.
[/quote]

Actually you are mistaken, for example Horse+Donkey=Mule or Lion+Tiger=Liger or a Democrate+Republican=6Ton Ass.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Do these groups of cells have distinguishable, unique DNA? Then it is a human.

By the way, if you truly believe every chracteristic of this line of thinking, then a mitochondria (which also has a unique structure of DNA within your own cells) should be treated with the same respect. Because of that one factor, you can not use DNA as a baseline to justify your stance on abortion.[/quote]

Once again - I’m not a scientist, or a doctor, or a fertility specialist. But this ‘unique structure of DNA within your own cell’ - isn’t that RNA?

Can the mitochondria function outside the cell walls of it’s home? That’s just a stupid stretch to try to make a point.

[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Do these groups of cells have distinguishable, unique DNA? Then it is a human. Unless I’m mistaken, one can’t interchange DNA between species, whether they have distinguishable traits, or not.

Actually you are mistaken, for example Horse+Donkey=Mule or Lion+Tiger=Liger or a Democrate+Republican=6Ton Ass.[/quote]

My point was that a human DNA strand will always be unique from any other species’ DNA.

6-ton ass - that’s funny.

wow this thread has taken on a life of its own eh?

hey JPBear, Sorry I misread your statement…my mom basically had a very similar childhood to your own. Am i pro-life or pro-choice…hmm, let me put it this way. if I were the father i would do whatever it took to keep the child, i could not possibly live with extinguishing a child’s life. As far as someone I don’t know and I’m not the father, i don’t know why I would have the right to influence that decision made by either parent. Live and let live and I wouldn’t want someone else to dictate my choices to me, so i wouldn’t want to be guilty of doin the same.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Do these groups of cells have distinguishable, unique DNA? Then it is a human.

By the way, if you truly believe every chracteristic of this line of thinking, then a mitochondria (which also has a unique structure of DNA within your own cells) should be treated with the same respect. Because of that one factor, you can not use DNA as a baseline to justify your stance on abortion.

Once again - I’m not a scientist, or a doctor, or a fertility specialist. But this ‘unique structure of DNA within your own cell’ - isn’t that RNA?

Can the mitochondria function outside the cell walls of it’s home? That’s just a stupid stretch to try to make a point.

[/quote]

I admit, it was a stretch, but the point is it has unique structure of DNA. That is why science has one theory that belives it was once its own organism that is now incorporated into our own cell structure because symbiosis is more efficient than independence. Either way, just because it has its own unique pattern of development, that does not mean that alone gives it the right to overstep the desires of the mother at the exact moment of conception. Again, do you agree with the morning after pill?

Extra info if you give a d’amn: Mitochondria have some of their own DNA, ribosomes, and can make many of their own proteins. The DNA is circular and lies in the matrix.in punctate structures called “nucleoids”. Each nucleoid may contain 4-5 copies of the mitochondrial DNA.

[quote]BiffRadbone wrote:
wow this thread has taken on a life of its own eh?

hey JPBear, Sorry I misread your statement…my mom basically had a very similar childhood to your own. Am i pro-life or pro-choice…hmm, let me put it this way. if I were the father i would do whatever it took to keep the child, i could not possibly live with extinguishing a child’s life. As far as someone I don’t know and I’m not the father, i don’t know why I would have the right to influence that decision made by either parent. Live and let live and I wouldn’t want someone else to dictate my choices to me, so i wouldn’t want to be guilty of doin the same.[/quote]

I agree with that point of view. I personally would take care of any child that I brought into this world because I understand how significant the act of sex is in the first place. To some people, sex is nothing more than an extended kiss which is why abortion is tossed around so loosely. I do not agree with someone having an abortion simply because they feel it will take something away from their disposable income and they won’t be able to buy that new car next year. However, it is not my place to dictate what someone else does to their own body. Soon, I guess we will need a court ruling to be able to self medicate with Tylenol.

Prof:

Actually, I do give to organizations that support children, including the pregnancy care center that talks young girls out of having abortions. However, that is irrelevant to the discusion of abortion being right or wrong.

I understand that people make mistakes. When this happens there are still consequences. One consequence might be that the girl carry the child full term and then give it up for adoption. Nice compromise, and no one dies!

Your argument that a woman can do what she wants with her own body is actually quite wrong! If a woman can do what she wants with her own body how come prostitution is illegal in most states? Explain that one…it’s her body yet she is not allowed to charge people to have sex. Seems that she lost a fundamental right…no? What a horrible country…go figure.

You claim you “don’t label yourself as a liberal.” Why doesn’t that surprise me? Show me one liberal who does not run from that label. In one way I don’t blame you, who wants to be associated with Al Sharpton, Ted Kennedy and that ilk. Yet, I don’t think you are being totally honest regarding your political leanings. Look…you are a liberal, don’t run from it.

Now I want you to prove two things: 1. When does life begin? 2. Does an aborted baby feel pain? When you can definitively answer those two questions you will then take a step toward understanding what abortion is all about.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

You claim you “don’t label yourself as a liberal.” Why doesn’t that surprise me? Show me one liberal who does not run from that label. In one way I don’t blame you, who wants to be associated with Al Sharpton, Ted Kennedy and that ilk. Yet, I don’t think you are being totally honest regarding your political leanings. Look…you are a liberal, don’t run from it.

Now I want you to prove two things: 1. When does life begin? 2. Does an aborted baby feel pain? When you can definitively answer those two questions you will then take a step toward understanding what abortion is all about.

[/quote]

One, life is energy that is not completely understood. Because of the findings in lesser organisms, it has been found that there is also a genetic memory that can be passed through generations so the argument could be held that life is simply ongoing and does not have another beginning past the one it had millennia ago. As far as an aborted baby feeling pain, again you keep skipping right over the morning after pill. Depending on how early the abortion is attempted, it probably won’t feel pain. I doubt anyone is recommending that an abortion take place in the second trimester or later. Neither of your questions have definitive answers because the issues of life and death have not been completely mapped out and understood. Does an organism actually stop living or is energy transferred? Any engineer can tell you that energy is never destroyed or newly created. Once you can answer the questions of life and death, and even further, why are we here, then you will get a final answer on when a baby can be safely aborted if at all. Your sperm is living. Her egg is living. That baby is simply divided in two, not newly living. That is why the questions I asked before about contraception do have a valid reason for being asked.

As far as being a liberal, I am not a politician and don’t care to be. I personally don’t follow any of what the “liberals” have to say versus the “conservatives”. I look at issues and respond based on my feelings on those particular issues. I do not disagree with some things I have heard from the conservative side so does that make me half and half? You want to throw labels around because it makes it easier for you to dismiss what someone else is saying. I don’t agree with that. I am not a liberal and I am not a conservative. You labeling me as such won’t make it any easier to figure me out.

Prof,

I do consider the morning after pill to be wrong.

On another note, look at this picture. I’m sorry if it is initially shocking to anyone, it is actually quite amazing though. The little hand is a 21 week old fetus about to undergo surgery in the womb for spina bifida. The baby reached out and grabbed the doctor’s hand. I love this picture.

Professor wrote:

“Neither of your questions have definitive answers because the issues of life and death have not been completely mapped out and understood.”

Exactly! You do not know that the baby is alive and feels pain. Until those questions are answered there should be no abortion.

As to your other fine points: It matters not that you are not a politician. Neither am I a politician, however I have a political viewpoint and so do you.

While you may not subscribe to being a liberal (and I believe you are in fact being honest)your views as posted on this forum are quite liberal.

Life is precious. Thanks for that photo.

Prof X - Let me take your “can’t live outside the womb” reason for abortion to the extreme.

Ok you live on planet earth. The fact that you cant live outside of planet earths atmosphere means that if "earth wanted to kill you she should be able to? Ok so you drive a car and pollute her air, should you be dead along with the rest of us? After all we are all endangering mother earth.

The fetus is in it’s natural environment in the womb. It has existance there and to say it is not alive is complete idiocy. The fucking thing is growing, feeding, excreting waste. It is a stage that all human beings go through, much the same as a catapillar going into it’s cacoon to turn into a butterfly. lets say the monarch butterfly was endangered, would it be allright to kill the catipillars that turn into monarch butterflies because they are noit yet a monarch butterfly? No they are actually two different stages of one species.

You brought up another point and I agree with you. If abortion is done away with there will be a lot more children to take care of. This should be a major focus of our social system, not rehabbing crack heads or violent criminals who have little odds of being a productive citizen. We need to focus on all children. The government needs to work with churches and charities to draw a detailed plan. Three different enteties, all working together for a common goal. The communication between the three groups will ensure broader coverage for benefits to children who need help. The government should give tax credits and other incentives for families who adopt, lets make it easier to do this, at the same time the screening should be more thorough. The government should also focus on making sure these kids get health care, and they should make sure these kids are getting a good education. The churches and charities should be focusing on getting these kids the material goods they need to thrive. Clothing, Proper food, school supplies. All of these things can be handled easily with a registration program. Coordinate these things and our kids will have a much better chance at making it in this world. So yes Prof X I do think a lot more attention is going to be needed with regard to our children. I view our society as the parents of all children, when these children grow up, society is the thing that they will belong to. If society is giving 110% to them hopefully when they become grown ups, they will give 110% back to the society.

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

Hmmm. Can’t live outside the womb is an interesting standard. Where does that put you on people kept alive via life-support systems?

David Brooks also argues against the “all about abortion and gay marriage” line of reasoning [I’ll note he needs to revisit his history and not get his impression of the Scopes trial from the movie “Inherit the Wind”, which was an interesting work of fiction, but actually very inaccurate from a historical perspective].

The New York Times
OP-ED COLUMNIST
The Values-Vote Myth
By DAVID BROOKS

Published: November 6, 2004

Every election year, we in the commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them.

In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic, Red America values-voters surged to the polls to put George Bush over the top.

This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.

Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.

It’s true that Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues over all has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.

Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying “moral values.” But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn’t vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.

The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That’s hardly the Bible Belt. Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums.

He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.

The fact is that if you think we are safer now, you probably voted for Bush. If you think we are less safe, you probably voted for Kerry. That’s policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.

The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I’ve spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It’s ridiculous to say, as some liberals have this week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.

In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, Wal-Mart, decorum, economic opportunity, natural law, manliness, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues.

But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. If you want to understand why Democrats keep losing elections, just listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?

What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don’t come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man.

[quote]Vegita wrote:

The fetus is in it’s natural environment in the womb. It has existance there and to say it is not alive is complete idiocy.
[/quote]

WHO has written that the cells are not alive regardless of what stage they are in? I didn’t write that which is why you need to quit going off on tangents and stick to responding to specifically what was written.

[quote]
You brought up another point and I agree with you. If abortion is done away with there will be a lot more children to take care of. This should be a major focus of our social system, not rehabbing crack heads or violent criminals who have little odds of being a productive citizen. We need to focus on all children. The government needs to work with churches and charities to draw a detailed plan. Three different enteties, all working together for a common goal. The communication between the three groups will ensure broader coverage for benefits to children who need help. [/quote]

None of this makes a difference if sex is not decreased and those values aren’t shared by the majority. I am going to go out on a limb and guess (since not one of you has answered any question I asked directly aside from JPBear) that many of you have had unprotected sex. If that is the case, then you are part of the problem as well, even if no children resulted from that action. I think the main problem here is many think of “they” and “them” as using the tool of abortion and never taking any circumstance on a case by case basis. It is ridiculous to make a grand sweeping movement that outlaws abortion for all women regardless of the circumstance.

As far as living without life support systems, I believe that comes down to the wishes of the individual (if stated before the accident or disease) and not the patient’s parents or other family whether they stay hooked to the machine or not.