Who Started TRT in the 500s (or FT 1.7-2%)?

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
21

We are all using steroids. I would say we are not abusing them, because at higher than “our” normal levels the pros outweigh the cons.

Not sure where I used circular reasoning?

I think you are right on this, the study referenced all the time about dose response, showed that 25 mg a week resulted in lower values than baseline. I am not sure why that is. Maybe a spike at injection causes shut down, and it takes a while to come back, then when coming back boom another 25 mg injection? I think 25 mg at once is more than would normally be seen naturally.

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I’m not sure I used the correct term there, but what I was getting at was that the logic doesn’t hold true for both situations presented by the discussion. If something is scientifically true, then it’s true no matter what right? If it only holds true under a certain set of circumstances, then it’s not true or accurate for us to just generally say that exogenous Test shuts down the pituitary…because there would be circumstances where it doesn’t. I’m not saying that I’m right or that you’re right…I’m just having a discussion here and and trying to get down to the nuts and bolts of the very generalized statements that we all make.

The “circular” part of that comment was just an attempt to imply that if an argument only holds true for one particular circumstance, then it is circular because it leaves the person making the argument, and can only be valid for his specific situation, so the argument can only come back and be validated by the person making it…Hope that makes sense? Circular see? lol

yeah I’m not sure either…Like i said…just making good discussion. I would like to see this tested in patients using an injection that is equal to or less that what a normal person would make on a daily basis naturally.

23

Good luck getting people to sign up for that one. Maybe if it paid quite a bit. The men who did the dose response study basically were shut down for 16 weeks getting 25 mg a week. The 50 mg a week group basically had negative outcome too.

Test tapering does not seem to be used much anymore. Looking at the study, I can see why. It logically makes sense, but maybe it would require ED injections or something to not shut down the HPTA?

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Ouch! lol I feel for those guys…

Be interesting to see this tested in animals.

25

Guys this makes no sense because it is a negative feedback loop. It shows the argument is based on false information and logic.

@systemlord help me explain this better.

  1. When the body is operating properly it produces more T as needed and I believe it happens along with estrogen . That’s why I think chlomid is half estrogen. It gives the body the signal to create more.

  2. If the body has enough T the body receives the message and says “no more needed”. We are good. Unless on HCG.

  3. The argument is why does the body stop if the T is bio identical is not even a debatable question, because it makes no sense . The body simply does not operate like this.

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Please expound on this.

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I tried to answe it above. The body stops producing becuSe it has enough hormone it’s like a thermometer that creates more once the levels drop. If the levels never drop the body never sends a signal to make more.

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If Cypionate was not close to the real thing the body would not stop creating T. It would Snd a signal saying we don’t hve enough.

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You posted a paper on progesterone, estriol and estradiol. No mention of any test there. In the context of the discussion here of TRT for MEN, there is no such thing as bioidentical. Are you aware of a plant based source for testosterone? Read the article first if you want to reference it. Every man on TRT is using synthetic, thus it’s at best a marketing line to call any of it"Bio-identical", but more realistically a flat out lie.

Edit: it is of note that some medical offices make reference to Bio-indentical hormone, so far I have only found that to be referring to the use of HCG, which is a stretch IMO.

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Here is an article from Harvard university that explains the difference. It’s jsut a term used for a synthetic hormone that matched the molecular makeup of the test the body creates. Therefore it sees it as the same. Then you have natural that are made from organic material. So bio is synthetic.

Jsut word play here but it makes sense.

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My point. Its all synthetic. Some people are trying to play “Holier than thou” by pretending that creams and gels are somehow morally better than injecting an ester.

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Who is doing that. I believe almost everything is bio identical or synthetic when it comes to Testostorone.

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Plenty of the guys with blogs or who are hyping something. The Bulletproof coffee guy comes to mind specifically.

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That guys annoying as F.

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35

Ok but this doesn’t address the point being made. Even when the exogenous source is NOT enough, ie. not as much as a person was producing BEFORE starting TRT, then why does the pituitary STILL shut down once a person begins injecting?

Another question, for discussion’s sake, if your point is valid, then why, even when an injection is enough to create a proper peak level, does the pituitary not kick back in when levels crash at the end of the week for those with very bad protocols?

36

How do we know that it really shuts down? Most guys on TRT have a problem. If you aren’t producing enough as it is, why should we expect any signalling to be going on in the presence of test in the system? If it works like the automatic shut-off for a tank, like a toilet, then sure you would continue to signal until your level hits the preset and closes the valve - so to speak. But there is no reason to expect hormone signalling to work that way.

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37

Before you start TRT the body has issues creating large amounts. So my example 285. My body kept me around there. My current protocol does not drop me below 800 at any given time. My body would need to see levels below 400
To receive the signal to create more. Although it is creating minute amounts of T. My BLood tests show it but nowhere near the amount before T.

Guys who have higher natural levels still need to drop t serum fairly low to have the same effect. For the most part the gland stops sending a signal and the testes still might produce a little bit they are effectively shut down.

After many months on T the body stops having to create it and shuts down. This is why they cycle steroids.

Also this is why one uses HCG. To keep the axis online.

Once you understand how the body creates T you will realize that this would not shut down if the synthetic Testostorone was not identical or similar. The body wouldn’t recognize it and HCG would not be needed. We would have tons of issues and therapy would not be effective.

Guys who are dropping so low that their bodies are crashing haven’t stabilized and will need to wait for stability. That’s why they say if you do a small dose cycle in a few weeks time the body will probably come back online.

It’s a negative feedback loop…

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How is testosterone controlled?

The regulation of testosterone production is tightly controlled to maintain normal levels in blood, although levels are usually highest in the morning and fall after that. The hypothalamus and the pituitary gland are important in controlling the amount of testosterone produced by the testes. In response to gonadotrophin-releasing hormonefrom the hypothalamus, the pituitary gland produces luteinising hormone which travels in the bloodstream to the gonads and stimulates the production and release of testosterone.

As blood levels of testosterone increase, this feeds back to suppress the production of gonadotrophin-releasing hormone from the hypothalamus which, in turn, suppresses production of luteinising hormone by the pituitary gland. Levels of testosterone begin to fall as a result, so negative feedbackdecreases and the hypothalamus resumes secretion of gonadotrophin-releasing hormone.

What happens if I have too much testosterone?

The effect excess testosterone has on the body depends on both age and sex. It is unlikely that adult men will develop a disorder in which they produce too much testosterone and it is often difficult to spot that an adult male has too much testosterone. More obviously, young children with too much testosterone may enter a false growth spurt and show signs of early puberty and young girls may experience abnormal changes to their genitalia. In both males and females, too much testosterone can lead to precocious puberty and result in infertility.

In women, high blood levels of testosterone may also be an indicator of polycystic ovary syndrome. Women with this condition may notice increased acne, body and facial hair (called hirsutism), balding at the front of the hairline, increased muscle bulk and a deepening voice.

There are also several conditions that cause the body to produce too much testosterone. These include androgen resistance, congenital adrenal hyperplasia and ovarian cancer.

The use of anabolic steroids (manufactured androgenic hormones) shuts down the release of luteinising hormone and follicle stimulating hormone secretion from the pituitary gland, which in turn decreases the amount of testosterone and sperm produced within the testes. In men, prolonged exposure to anabolic steroids results in infertility, a decreased sex drive, shrinking of the testes and breast development. Liver damage may result from its prolonged attempts to detoxify the anabolic steroids. Behavioural changes (such as increased irritability) may also be observed. Undesirable reactions also occur in women who take anabolic steroids regularly, as a high concentration of testosterone, either natural or manufactured, can cause masculinisation (virilisation) of women.

What happens if I have too little testosterone?

If testosterone deficiency occurs during fetal development, then male characteristics may not completely develop. If testosterone deficiency occurs during puberty, a boy’s growth may slow and no growth spurt will be seen. The child may have reduced development of pubic hair, growth of the penis and testes, and deepening of the voice. Around the time of puberty, boys with too little testosterone may also have less than normal strength and endurance, and their arms and legs may continue to grow out of proportion with the rest of their body.

In adult men, low testosterone may lead to a reduction in muscle bulk, loss of body hair and a wrinkled ‘parchment-like’ appearance of the skin. Testosterone levels in men decline naturally as they age. In the media, this is sometimes referred to as the male menopause (andropause).

Low testosterone levels can cause mood disturbances, increased body fat, loss of muscle tone, inadequate erections and poor sexual performance, osteoporosis, difficulty with concentration, memory loss and sleep difficulties. Current research suggests that this effect occurs in only a minority (about 2%) of ageing men. However, there is a lot of research currently in progress to find out more about the effects of testosterone in older men and also whether the use of testosterone replacement therapy would have any benefits.

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I understand the feedback loop and how it works, but you STILL have not answered my question regarding the hypothetical scenario.

A guy injects LESS than he produces everyday over a few weeks time. His pituitary still shuts down. Why?

When a guy is primary, his testicles don’t produce enough to satisfy demand and the pituitary ramps up. With injected T it would not be the case. Just the opposite. What’s the difference if injected T is so bioidentical that the body can’t tell the difference?

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I answered it above and why would a guy inject less than his body creates? He wouldn’t need Trt then. That doesn’t make sense. Why would you do that to yourself.

The first comment earlier has been proven false. Synthetic is bio identical otherwise the feedback loop would continue producing T.