To give necessary context to Kuri’s two allegations about John Ashcroft on the thread:
Partial birth abortions are currently against federal law in almost all circumstances. The law will presumably be challenged, and taken through the courts, where the federal government could find information about partial birth abortions as they have actually occured useful in its argument. Ashcroft’s subpoena request was declined by a Chicago Federal Judge. Thus far it hasn’t been appealed. This is not extralegal on his part-. He is ENFORCING federal law, as is his job, although not the way I would choose to do so.
People of many stripes join together in protests and some of them are involved in radical organizations that commit or promote violence here or abroad. This not just in regard to the war, but also the conference of industrial nations. We’ll have to wait and see how this is handled, and whether Congress needs to put stipulations on this. From a couple of in-depth articles, mostly by liberal authors such as Michelle Goldberg, the issue of undercover agents investigating protestors has nothing to do yet with the Patriot Act.
I personally think the Patriot Act should be reviewed and reformed in its finer points, but not because any gross misconduct has occured.
I do not personally like John Ashcroft. I would rather see a different Attorney General, but he is reigned in by legislators from both parties. At least reigned in enough that the charges leveled against Ashcroft are often specious.
I’ve run into patriots from England, Germany, USSR, and other places and they are just as obnoxious to listen to if you aren’t from their country.
I’ll have to echo the comments about the fake or weekend patriots after 9-11. I purposely didn’t buy or display any flag stuff just so I wouldn’t be grouped with those well meaning, but generally shallow, buffoons. You don’t have to be noisy, or a flag waver, to be patriotic. You can vote. You can write your representative so they can return you a form letter somewhat related to the topic of concern. You can just be a good citizen of your community. There are a lot of ways to be a patriot.
Bilt–hey, for what it’s worth, I did a week in Darwin and with my experience with you guys, if I couldn’t live here, I’d be over in Aussieland in a minute. ALL of your women are BEAUTIFUL! That and you’re all just an easygoing group, although a bit goofy at times.
I?m from England, where Patriotism seems to be an ideal largely promoted by the Tabloids at the times of major soccer games as well as the lovely smooth headed far right fellows. However, as last year?s celebration of the Queen?s 50 years on the throne proved there are many patriots not associated with the first two groups, and these are largely people who have a great affinity and love for the culture and surroundings of their own bringing up. That?s cool, and I think that?s where many American patriots are coming from.
As for me I?m not a big fan of Patriotism. To me it screams segregation (from my fellow human beings on the planet). As Bill Hicks once said on Patriotism ?Makes me sick to my stomach, it?s a round world?.
A bit harsh, yes, but his point was valid, when the flag is at full mast on the 4th of July that is one thing, but when you are declaring to your nation and the world, ?you?re either with us or against us?, you?re taking one step away from harmony and peace. It?s great to see that Mr. Bush is a very religious man: Forgiveness is divine.
NoMojoPin - World harmony??? Are you kidding me? The last i checked, most of the rest of the world hates us. I’m merely saying that if you are an American, be damn proud of it; regardless of what any asshole says.
NoMojoPin is probably the first person on the T-mag board to mention Bill Hicks!
It was lame but “With us or against us” didn’t mean we intended to invade Germany or France for promising to veto any new resolution. There are greater gaffes for a religious man to make than this silly language in this particular context.
Ranger, so anyone who criticises America is an Asshole. I guess there are a lot of assholes on this planet, even the pope, who asked America to at least tone down its offensives?
Saddam is beyond Evil,but he used scuds, they aren’t WMD, only one country has ever used WMD, I forget which country it was, but they were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Yes I do criticise the actions of the Bush administration, but I also condemn the actions of most governments, why? Because governments have a tendency to propagate their leadership by committing a great deal of lying and murdering.
I?m sure many Iraqis thanked you, I guess you didn’t get a chance to drive through the streets of the families of those tens of thousands who were killed oh sorry, collaterally damaged. There is much balance in the view however, case I point go to Michael 'site and see how many of your colleagues in Iraq have written in with the opposite view to the one you hold.
Why is 'out, first of all America?s support for Saddam has been well documented up to the Gulf War, he could have been brought to trial many years ago to international courts for the atrocities he has committed on his people for decades, just as Milosevic is facing now, but believe me when I tell you America had no intention. Why did Bush go to these lengths (lying and Murdering innocent people) to get Saddam so quickly, to show to people he is doing everyting to protect America’s security and book another 4 years in office (which is nonsense, Saddam in all his years would never pose a threat to the US, someting US ex National security advisors stated before the Iraq War, but attacks like the one on Iraq are what disillusion young men who become terrorists, and bushh did create about a thousand new terrorists who like to carry out their work in Western counries especially on tall adjacent buildings) . You said 4 years wasn’t enough to make a change, why do you think they are given 4 years, its not a random number, of course you can do a lot in 4 years, Clinton did some great things in his first term (much of which Bush reversed) which got him re-elected. Ranger, in my experience of Americans, one thing is quite prevalent, and that is the lack of cynicism, definitely something I admire. I’m very cynical however, but despite that I still believe in Working toward a future where people look beyond the borders of the place they were born in.
Finally, if you ever get a chance to converse with someone who supposedly hates America, you’ll find that to be total nonsense, the hatred is toward the Administration.
I apologise for the bad sentencing of that last paragraph. My point was by making such statements as with/against, Bush proposed a Black and White solution to a grey problem; The sense of alienation caused by such a statement was severe, and highly criticised by some press publications here.
The religious thing was separate and a dig at his supposed religious stance, yet he and his cohorts lack the desire to set the true example and forgive ( NB see how Brando’s character handles tragedy in Godfather, by being the big man and calling the truce ? apologies for citing Hollywood!).
It escapes me how these fundamentalist Christian (leaders) men will go to such lengths by telling Women what to do with their bodies and save their unwanted unborn children, yet they are quite willing to take the lives of little children in other countries. Sad.
NoMojoPin---- current estimates are 4000 to 9000 civilian casualties. Not tens of thousands. More than 1 is bad, but it happens. I’m just saying that on something as important as that it is very irresponsible to inflate the numbers.
NoMojoPin,
I think you have to look at when Bush proposed his B&W solution. It wasn’t a grey problem any more when Germany and France stated their intentions.
Schroeder and the U.S. are overcoming any “sense of alienation,” and France is having its own issues with the rest of Europe. Schroeder had to promise to vote against the U.S. to get reelected. The English press is…partisan to say the least.
(I think it’s a good thing to the sanctions the big 5 signed on to are now over. 4000 children under the age of five were dying needlessly every month according to the most conservative estimate. And now our countries no longer have to protect the Shiite and Kurdish resistance in the North and South from slaughter at the cost of 20 billion per year.)
Wrong example for your purposes. In the Godfather, Brando’s “truce” is a tactical ploy to allow his family to get closer to those in the Mafia who want to betray the Corleones.
NoMojoPin -
So you don’t consider a gas (VX) that literally makes someone cough until their lungs come out in little bloody chunks a WMD??? That was what was in some of the scuds that Saddam launched. Oh shit, I must have forgotten when YOU served in the military and saw this shit first hand. Also, this “collateral damage” was very mild in comparison to the history of warfare. Of course innocent people will always die in war. While it’s horrible, it’s still inevitable. And yes I DID see those people crying in the streets whose lives were ravaged by this war. What do you think that us troops were hamming it up and having a great time? I didn’t exactly have a lot of shits and giggles ending the lives of men that I’ve never met. In war, everyone loses, one just loses a little more than the other. I’m not saying I want war. But what I was saying was that sometimes it is absolutely neccessary. And yes, Saddam DID pose a direct threat to the U.S. Just think, he doesn’t exactly like the U.S., does he? Now with that in mind, ponder if you will, what if he COULD get his hands on some of the WMD’s he used BEFORE. He could very easily get his hands on them (we all know he had the money), and do you think that using them on us by giving them to a terrorist cell would bother his conscience?? Also, there are also one helluva lot of “backpack nukes” missing off of the russian black market.I was in spec ops, I belive I know. Sorry to scare you with that last statement, but don’t come running to the U.S. when you find yourself or your country attacked by these pricks.
Good Post. I can’t argue with the fact that France and Germany, have been contending with their own issues, every government has their own agenda. And as anti-government as I feel I am sometimes, I realise that governments aren’t a bunch of evil grinning thumb twiddlers out to wrong others whilst accumulating as much power but what gets to me is the lack of initiatives toward real peace/harmony. It’s beyond me how in today’s society Africa’s debt isn?t expunged; Palestine is so mercilessly occupied, all Nuclear/Bio/Chem weapons destroyed by ALL nations amongst many grievances.
Lol, the English press does leave a lot to be desired, but it could be worse, they could be Fox!
Brian, I thought assassinating the other family heads was a move instigated by Michael after Vito’s death.
Anyways, I got to go easy on the posting since Exams are coming and other coursework deadlines beckon!
I’ll still be reading, keep the Posts coming Brian, I have much respect for your opinion.
Take care
God bless those that fought for the freedoms that we have. The freedoms that let each of us have an opinion and passionately express them. It is easy for those that have never had to stand a post and guard against attack. Those of you that are Americans and have never served feel free to have your opinions and by all means express them as passionately as you can. Just don?t forget where that right came from and who paid the price.
As I understand it, Saddam used chemical weapons on his own people and the Iranians. Chems are hardly nukes. (And please spare me the “Oh, so now you defend Saddam” bullshit, that’s not what I’m saying.)
Nukes are WMD’s…we’ve only switched the terminolgoy to “Weapons of Mass Destruction” because, well, it’s got a nice, deadly ring to it.