Define patriot.
AMerica sucks. We kill people and then we say we are freedom loving. we love death and killing! We are run by zionists that keep us happy by killing people and steal the worlds riches!!!
Gherkin,
You should thank your lucky stars that you live in a country as great and beautiful as the U.S., because if you were to say something like that in many other countries, you would probably be imprisoned without trial, tortured, and then ultimately killed. You say America sucks? Then get the fuck out of here. I’m sure that everyone else here making these posts would agree with me when I say that this nation would be a better place without pieces of trash like you. Remember asshole, countless men have died for you to be able to make such low, uneducated statements. So if you want to disrespect these colors and the men who created them with blood, get the fuck out of here and join the ones who share your same beliefs i.e. Osama Bin Laden, and Saddam Hussein. Then, we’ll see if you have the balls to face us as you call “Zionist” assholes. Chances are like the many others who have gone up against the U.S. you’ll tuck your tail between your weak legs and run for the hills. People like only make this country weaker, and it would indeed be a better place without you. GET THE HELL OUT!!!
jaystyles
Do all of you think that a patriotic person has to support President Bush. Becuase I consider myself patriotic, but I do not support many if not most of his policies.
I also liked what nephorm said.
The last thing I ever need to do is prove myself on an internet forum, so I feel silly for saying this, but I was flying the flag long before 9/11. So, anyway, to answer your question, I guess you never met me, or several of my friends, because we have been flying the flag for years which, if I do say so myself, was unusual for twenty somethings pre 9/11.
I’m happy to see a resurgence of patriotism, but I also hope people will use their heads and not be blinded by their love for their country.
threads like this are useless… they serve one purpose: to drive a wedge between t-men/t-vixens.
i understand this is the ‘off topic’ section, but starting threads like this is destructive, because we all know, t-men/t-vixens are here for each other regardless if we like so-and-so prime minister/president/ruler.
jaystyles
Kovach-- certainly not. I voted Bush last time, but he won’t get it this time. No man can question my patriotism but I’m no fan of Bush. He was put in a tough position and had the balls to take a stand and should be commended for it.
My beef was that I think a vote should have been sent to Congress for a formal declaration of war. You can only slightly fault Bush for this because no one has made a formal declaration of war since WW2. I know the N. Koreans declared war on us, but I don’t think we did the same. I’m a history major so correct me if I’m wrong.
My biggest problems lie in the so-called Patriot Act. I refuse to give up any of those precious freedoms that have been fought for by better men than myself. The people do not understand that the terrorists ARE WINNING when we give away our rights and freedoms willingly out of fear.
My second problem is slightly more personal: I served in the Phillipines for Operation Enduring Freedom. I spent 4 months there sleeping on the hood of a Mk19 humvee. This was when the local Abu Sayef terrorists had kidnapped the Mormon missionaries and had them on a TINY island called Basilon. They were grossly maltreated for over a year on the very island I was on. Yet because Bush couldn’t play hardball with their president (a woman president at that) we could never go get them. Martin Burnham ended up dying because of that. A group of the local grossly inept military accidently ran into their patrol. He died in the ensuing crossfire. We did a lot of good there, but not enough.
mikeyali
Thanks for the reply mikeyali. I’m sorry about your friend.
When I asked my question I didn’t really mean it as a litteral “should I start to support Bush so I can be patriotic”, I just wanted to know if that is how some of the people on this board judged patriotism (by how much they support the current president).
I’m glad to hear that you have changed your mind about Bush. If you don’t mind me asking will you be voting democratic or will you use your vote as a protest (nader, etc.). If you don’t answer I understand that this is a touchy subject. I’m just curious because your post was one of the more level headed non partison posts I’ve ever read here.
Mikeyali,
The ACLU hasn’t found one actual misuse/abuse of the Patriot Act. (And nobody’s checked anybody’s library records yet!) In most of the issues where people have suggested an abridgement of privacy, ironically, the Patriot Act has replaced a grand jury with a judge. It’s common knowledge in the legal profession that you can get a grand jury to sign off on anything, much harder with a judge.
(BTW, John Kerry has said that the “only thing wrong with the Patriot Act” is John Ashcroft–yet the ACLU acknowledges he hasn’t abused it yet. Strange.)
I’m not really going to get into this much but I’m compelled to say something.
Patriotism makes no sense at all. It makes sense to fight for your family and for your values. If your government does something that is contrary to your personal values then why the hell would you support it?
And what’s up with the bonehead comment about knowing the words of the national anthem? How the hell does that play into this at all?
/Jacob
Kovach–No, I’ll be voting for whomever the libertarian candidate is this time around. I’m told time and again that I’m throwing my vote away, but 1) I can’t in good conscience vote for Bush and I’d rather cut my balls off than vote for Kerry and 2) until people “throw their votes away” by voting 3rd party then none of the general public will see them popular enough to vote for because they believe in them. It’s been said that people vote for the lesser of 2 evils but that’s really because they lack the balls to put their vote where they really believe it belongs.
mikeyali
Mikeyali - True, very true.
I have a question.
Do all Americans think that the USA owns the concept of patriotism or just the noisy ones?
I’ll tell you why I ask. I have not visited the US yet so my opinions are based on all of the various forms of media that find their way out of the country. America projects an image of “We have the only country that is worth loving and we will love it loudly!”
I expect to find that the general population is somewhat more realistic when I eventually get there and meet some of them.
To answer the question, I expect that over 80% of the world’s population is patriotic in the sense that they love their country but the country is the dirt and the people, not the government. All countries deserve patriots.
Just my opinion, but I think Bush is doing a great job in office. If you happen to disagree, please give me some examples as to how he is not. Like I said, Bush is HUMAN. He’s not the next divine savior that was sent down here to magically ressurrect jobs for everyone. His decisions to go to war were absolutely just. No WMD??? Whos gives a damn. Saddam needed to go. I have served in Iraq, and I tell you, the majority of those Iraqi citizens WANTED us to go there and handle business. When we were walking through those streets, people were thanking us for having come over there. Also, Saddam has used WMD in the past and I doubt that using them again would exactly be nagging at his conscience. As for the economy; it’s the PEOPLE who are making the economy a perfect environment for a stalemate. People are still hesitant about spending money for fear that the economy will drop into a deeper hole. Bush can’t just wave a little majic wand and say “There!!! Jobs for everyone!!!” This is a complicated process that takes time to accomplish. Very little can happen in a four year term (like making the economy explode with prosperity), and the PEOPLE have to get in the right mindset. Everyone has to do their part for the economy, not just the president.
Colleges such as Drake (in Iowa) have been subpoenaed to turn over information on who attended peaceful anti-war meetings.
Ashcroft has ordered hospitals to submit lists of women who’ve had late term abortions.
Is that proper use of the Patriot Act - or a thinly disguised ideological agenda?
Bilt,
Our country is not exactly just the “dirt and the people,” since it’s made up of many different peoples joined together by a governmental idea. (And we might not like to think how we got the dirt!) Your country in is the same boat.
You write,
“America projects an image of “We have the only country that is worth loving and we will love it loudly!””
I think if you find someone in the middle of a patriotic rant, that’s how they sound, no matter what country they’re from. I love our country for the same reasons you probably love Austrailia, or a Canadian loves Canada.
Europeans I think will tend to form their Western pride around the idea of “civilized dialogue between nations,” with Europe envisioned as a continental neo-superpower. On the other hand, Americans, as the lone “superpower state” will form their Western pride around
taking risks and facing criticism.
Mikeyali - I typically vote for the Libertarian candidate, but I’m voting for Kerry this time.
My (admittedly tenuous and circuitous) reasoning is as follows: any vote against Bush is a vote FOR Libertarianism. When the Executive and Legislative branches are dominated by different parties, there is more chance of partisan grid-lock where fewer laws can be passed. Fewer laws means less they can screw us with.
Once we can restore Capitol Hill gridlock I’ll feel safe voting for the Libertarian candidate again.
yeah, I’m a patriot, because I mind my own business.
Kuri writes:
"Colleges such as Drake (in Iowa) have been subpoenaed to turn over information on who attended peaceful anti-war meetings.
Ashcroft has ordered hospitals to submit lists of women who’ve had late term abortions.
Is that proper use of the Patriot Act - or a thinly disguised ideological agenda?"
The Patriot Act has nothing to do with the latter. I’m not sure about the former, yet the ACLU has not submitted a complaint about the Patriot Act in this matter.
(Of course, I will have to check the complete details on the two situations to which you allude.)