Who Do Gun Owners Vote For?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
We have a horrible crop of candidates. The fact that anyone is giving Paul consideration is a perfect illustration of how bad things truly are.

We are going to take our lumps no matter who gets elected. I have never been a party politics guy but I usually vote Republican because the Republican candidate is usually the lesser of two evils.[/quote]

wrt the Presidential election - there is no difference between McCain and the left.

You miss the point. I am relying on the right to come back together if a Dem is elected President, and fight. The GOP has been the biggest bunch of pussies in US politics since Bush was elected. The only time they acted like they had a set of balls was back in 1994 when Newt led the charge. They will be forced to support whatever judge McCain would nominate. I have no trust in his wisdom - so in my opinion, he could do more harm than good when it comes to the SCOTUS.

Whose reality? You guys seem to be the ones that think if we elect McCain, things will be okay. My reality is that he shit on the 1st amendment, and will shit on as many more of them as he can. Couple that with a republican party that feels it needs to apologize every time someone farts, and the future looks very scary with McCain as a president.

What is best for this country is a strong conservative voice in Congress. You won’t get that with McCain. Only when backed against a wall does the GOP seem to be willing to stand up for anything.

42

[quote]rainjack wrote:

I have no faith in McCain. He is no different than Hillary, or Obama, IMO. [/quote]

You don’t have to like McCain or even vote for him, but this can’t be serious, RJ. No different than Hillary or Obama?

Put their legislative records side by side - no way that is possible. Obama was determined by the nonpartisan National Journal to be the most liberal Senator of 2007 - McCain pushed for the surge and has been a steady opponent of pork in the Senate.

You can disagree with McCain - there is a choice coming in 2008, a distinct one. It may not be the dream matchup, but there is marked difference between the parties’ candidates.

I happen to like McCain, even though I disagree with him on a number of issues - but one thing I think you are dead on about: the GOP has gone down the shitter, thanks to…well…the GOP. We are stuck in this position precisely because elected Republicans ruined the brand name of the GOP. Conservatives are not fighting for a 2008 election from a position of strength - when that happens, there is no way to “run the table”.

But in my mind, I’ll take working from a position of weakness if that means working against a Hillary or Obama administration, both of which would be very, very bad for America for years to come.

[/quote]

43

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
We have a horrible crop of candidates. The fact that anyone is giving Paul consideration is a perfect illustration of how bad things truly are.

We are going to take our lumps no matter who gets elected. I have never been a party politics guy but I usually vote Republican because the Republican candidate is usually the lesser of two evils.

wrt the Presidential election - there is no difference between McCain and the left.

[/quote]

While I think he sucks up to the left far too often he is better than you give him credit for.

I want the right to come back too. I just think the damage that will be done by the left is too severe to risk your strategy.

Things won’t be OK. We have a choice between a slap to the face and a bat to the head. Neither will be pleasant but I want to avoid the bat to the head.

I am all for electing strong conservatives to Congress and I urge everyone to vote that way this fall.

44

I think it comes down to whether you think Gore or Kerry could have done more damage than Bush?

I don’t think I’m the only one who perceives McCain as a “Dubya on crack”.

45

[quote]lixy wrote:
I think it comes down to whether you think Gore or Kerry could have done more damage than Bush?

I don’t think I’m the only one who perceives McCain as a “Dubya on crack”.[/quote]

What the hell are you even talking about?

Gore is a fucking idiot of a magnitude that approaches immeasurable.

Kerry and McCain are about the same person in my book. Opportunistic, stab-you-in-the-back pieces of shit.

Bush was the right President for the time. Period.

46

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
You don’t have to like McCain or even vote for him, but this can’t be serious, RJ. No different than Hillary or Obama?

Put their legislative records side by side - no way that is possible. Obama was determined by the nonpartisan National Journal to be the most liberal Senator of 2007 - McCain pushed for the surge and has been a steady opponent of pork in the Senate.[/quote]

That’s all fine and good - but has either Hillary, or Obama sponsored a Bill that guts the 1st Amendment?

You guys have yet to address this. I don’t take McCain’s shitting on the constitution lightly.

That is a matter of opinion. He is not a conservative. He has thrown the right under the bus on more than one occasion.

And McCain is the lead asshole sending the GOP into the shitter. I would feel the exact same way if Lindsay Graham were running. I hate cowards. I hate liars. McCain is both.

47

I might be remissed but isn’t the President just a Diplomat? Isn’t that how the Constitution describes the President?

I hate to say it but the Federal Gov’t is coming after our guns. It would be safe to say that the checks and balances are working as intended but they are not. One would be willing to bet that no one in either House would politically come after the 2nd amendment. Yet, you have elected officals not just going after the 2nd, but the 1st, the 5th, all the way up. The Bill of Rights, is for sale by those in office who have never had a real job. Can you, say public assistance. Note: see Edward Kennedy.

Saying that then who get’s the vote. I like Paul but he doesn’t have a realistic chance. Mc is out of the question to old and so is Hug (if I want a Clinton, I will vote for one).

Which leaves the change canidate Obama? Yet, as he crying for change and believing he seems to be getting a lot of Old Gaurd support… So, much for changing.

The one canidate that is not getting a lot of old guard support is ??? Hillary. I will reluctantly vote for her. I will then vote for individuals to the Houses that support my views and hinder her in her attemp to take my freedoms away (Repubs let Bush do whatever).

Oh, btw I will vote against the elf Kucinich when he runs for re-election to Congress this fall. I have had enough of him making the northcoast of Ohio-Cleveland region the laughing stock of the Nation.

So to answer. I am voting for a Clinton.

48

[quote]rainjack wrote:

That’s all fine and good - but has either Hillary, or Obama sponsored a Bill that guts the 1st Amendment? [/quote]

Let’s take that at face value - do you think Hillary or Obama are better on this issue?

This isn’t an academic question - somebody has to win the Presidency. I realize this is a big issue for you, but here is the deal - between McCain and Obama/Hillary, the issue is a push. One of those three are going to be President - you don’t get a legitimate option that went the other way on CFR.

That said, even my guy (and yours) Fred Thompson supported McCain’s CFR.

No, I have addressed it - and I don’t agree with McCain on CFR. But I have made peace on the issue largely because I recognize the “ends” that McCain was trying to achieve - which I agree with - even if the “means” were a problem - which I believe.

He is conservative, but has some liberal positions. You say “that is a matter of opinion” and then say McCain is not a conservative expecting me to take it as fact.

By and large, McCain has been a conservative throughout his public life. Does he hit every checkbox on conservative talk radio’s report card - nope, but no one does, and if someone did happen to score 100%, they couldn’t get elected.

Is he now? Calling for a surge in Iraq when it wasn’t popular - when the pussyfooting tactics were the received wisdom - while risking his political capital to do it? While the GOP began gorging on earmarks and cronyism, McCain wasn’t fighting against pork or trying to pull his best Cato the Elder impression in frogmarching the Jack Abramoff’s and Boeing deal’s out of the party?

McCain is a lot of things - stubborn, combative, and fiercely independent - a coward ain’t one of them.

McCain was not my first choice - but now I make my decisions on the best choices left.

49

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

I can’t imagine it either, which is why I have come to the conclusion I did - to dovetail on Zap’s point, Second Amendment enthusiasts around here are more interested in the “cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face” politics that would actually give better electoral chances to politicians more opposed the Second Amendment.[/quote]

Either that or a few of us are capable of 1)taking a stand or 2)being able to withhold gratification and think long-term. How is slowly whittling away my freedoms better than being open about it? I can’t vote for McCain because he has demonstrated that with the exception of Iraq, he is no better than a democrat. The battle for our liberty isn’t a sprint, it’s a marathon. I’d rather an Obama sprint out the gate and get winded than have a few generations of McCains sneak up on me. Either way they’re running toward the same goal.

McCain is fundamentally against my belief system, and to support him is to encourage others like him.

The man seems to think it’s the government’s job to regulate baseball and the UFC for chrissakes! Those are minor things that show his true colors. He is pro-kyoto. He is pro-that law of the seas thing. He IS A LIBERAL. I’m not going to leave a mess for my children. Maybe, just maybe, if we showed a little conviction for an election cycle or two we can get our government under control.

My vote for a Paul, Perot, or Thompson might make me one of the five percent. But five percent can embolden others next time to make it ten percent. Ten percent can give hope to those that won’t vote for a guy because simply because he isn’t “electable.”[quote]

That just ain’t smart - so there has to be another explanation. And given the juvenile yahooism we see over and over on the issue, I can’t come to a different conclusion.

I was raised in the rural South and I have been around guns all my life. I hunt and shoot for sport. I think gun ownership is integral to a culture of independence and conservation. I have a vested interest in protecting the Second Amendment, always have - so I damn sure don’t see the value in clinging to brainless idealism when there are legitimate candidates that can win that are hostile to the Second Amendment outright. [/quote]

I think you presume too much. I would be willing to bet you solid money that a good percent of Paulies aren’t pro-2A. Most libertarians I know have never fired a gun and think that a piece of paper can magically protect us if you read it loud enough. Do you consider Rush to be a simple juvenile for being anti-McCain? There are lots of reasons to be strongly anti-McCain. And for every reason there is a good conservative taking his stand there.

Frankly, McCain is enough of a mixed bag re: RKBA that he’d get my vote if every thing else about him didn’t label him a liberal. And as far as this wanting anti-gunners so we can play revolutionaries goes, well, I can tell you that it took a lot more than NFA34, GCA68 ect, to get me where I am.

I’m an infantryman. It’s all I ever wanted to do. The fact that I cannot in good conscience go back into the Corps has me angry being words. When I came back from fighting overseas and found greater enemies at home than abroad, well, frankly I felt betrayed. I feel betrayed by libertarians without brains and republicans without balls. You think going into debt with law school and coming out to sit behind a desk is more appealing to me than going back in the Corps dirty, wet, and miserable while leading a rifle platoon? Of course not.

The point of this overly-long post is that McCain doesn’t stand for what you propose to believe in on here. Don’t assume that because there are others on here that recognize that a vote for the lesser of two evils is still a vote for evil that being anti-McCain makes you a jeffdirect or

mike

50

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Vote for whomever you like, but if you choose not to vote GOP, no need to worry about McCain’s 2d Amendment position - that won’t be the one pushed from the Oval Office.

On another note, to be perfectly frank, I am not entirely convinced that a number of gun-enthusiasts actually want a pro-second amendment administration.

Because if we elected a president that stoutly supported the freedom to bear arms and tried to get that into policy, what then? How can you be revolutionary and rebellious if the powers-that-be in the power suits in Washington actually agree with you?

No, I becoming more and more convinced that what is more important to these folks is not actually stronger gun freedoms, but being able to Rage Against the Machine of people trying to take away gun rights. As such, the wannabe-revolutionaries have a need in seeing someone hostile to the 2d Amendment in the White House because feeling cool and revolutionary is actually a higher priority than having their policy go mainstream.

After all, how cool and revolutionary can you be if everyone agrees with you? That is no fun - and it doesn’t serve the psychic needs of the wannabe-revolutionaries, which we know are quite demanding.

As for me, I want 2d Amendment freedoms to be mainstream and - wait for it - normal - I like open carry, some level of carry on campuses even, and a more fluid gun market, and we certainly aren’t going to get there with a left-liberal Democrat in office. But then ,I have no interest in defining myself as “rebellious” because, well, I grew up.[/quote]

Thunder,

You are usually very insightful and spot on, but this is a bit ridiculous.

The fact of the matter is, the gun-rights movement will have a need to exist until nearly every law regulating firearms ownership is stricken from our books(with a few exceptions, of course). The maze of laws restricting firearms ownership have been nothing but work-arounds of the 2nd Amendment. I can’t see how any true supporter could ever see it as otherwise. There is
no “childish” or “rebellious” intent in this fight. It is merely a battle(albeit a losing one) to make right what is wrong.

I would cherish a day when the intrusive, communist fools gave up their crusade and the freedom of the individual was respected fully as was intended by our founders. Then we could move on to another fight.

51

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

No, I becoming more and more convinced that what is more important to these folks is not actually stronger gun freedoms, but being able to Rage Against the Machine of people trying to take away gun rights. As such, the wannabe-revolutionaries have a need in seeing someone hostile to the 2d Amendment in the White House because feeling cool and revolutionary is actually a higher priority than having their policy go mainstream.

After all, how cool and revolutionary can you be if everyone agrees with you? That is no fun - and it doesn’t serve the psychic needs of the wannabe-revolutionaries, which we know are quite demanding.

As for me, I want 2d Amendment freedoms to be mainstream and - wait for it - normal - I like open carry, some level of carry on campuses even, and a more fluid gun market, and we certainly aren’t going to get there with a left-liberal Democrat in office. But then ,I have no interest in defining myself as “rebellious” because, well, I grew up.[/quote]

I’ll have to call bullshit on this one. I respect your opinions and often agree but this one is ridiculous. The bulk of the activists among gun owners are not 18year old kiddies, but grown men and women who care about our freedom and are fearful of incremental losses of personal liberty. Many are current or former military and law enforcement. Most of us care about our communities. We are not apocalypse worshiping wackos, stocking up on canned food while preparing for the revolution.

I personally express my beliefs by training and teaching new shooters as often as I am able. I am respectful to others in public and private. And I try my best to lead a good life and set a positive example for others.

I am not afraid of sweeping government edicts restricting my civil rights. Broad and rapid infringements on personal liberties are often met with resistance as they tend to unify disparate groups in opposition to them. Cumulative incremental attacks on our freedom worry me more. A little bit here, and a little there, each on its own amounts to very little but the sum eventually becomes antithetical to personal freedom. Death by a thousand cuts, if you will.