2 examples. Ok. What are the statistics? @Mufasa mentioned WS “incidents” (which are poorly defined thus far - please define in no uncertain terms) are on the rise. Compared to what? Per capita or by volume? On the rise indicates they were on the decline. How far had they declined before they regressed? By how much has the upswing eroded the improvement? Has it been a sustained increase in incidents (again rate or volume??) or is are these anomalies at the moment?
But, then again, we’re spinning our wheels since this phenomenon hasn’t been well defined other than the obligatory “I know it when I see it” a la Potter Stewart? I don’t doubt CIA or FBI has some stats the public can access wrt these issues and I’d think they have a readily available definition we can use or posit for discussion? You’d think, given the response rate of this thread, someone positing this phenomenon requires more attention than it is given could have dug all of this up for discussion rather than relying on vague generalities and boogeyman descriptions…
It’s because mufasa put himself in a corner speaking of WS specifically. Its the exact reason Tucker said WS instead of racism. The public draws a large distinction between racism, which has a highish chance to be WS in nature, and ‘actual’ WS.
Like most of my family would easily fit any definition of a white supremacists, but they don’t wear the hood and burn crosses, so the public would just consider them to be racists.
Given there is an internet subculture, we could start there. Maybe there is data on website traffic for example.
Maybe we can’t for the moment know how many people are part of some movement but we can see that it has a greater reach than when they handed out pamphlets.
Anyone who cares about 2A should think about that question. A thousand people can get killed in Chicago and you don’t hear about gun control on a federal level. A few, relatively speaking, people get gunned down by a mass shooter and even Trump shows his true colors on guns (then the NRA tells him to backpedal).
I see. I’m doing my best to follow your line of thought here. You tell me if I have it right.
White supremacist activities are generally on the rise, enabled by our presidents rhetoric. You have very few examples, but I shouldn’t worry about getting bogged down in such details.
Specific actions we can take to combat this scourge include studying German history and gun control.
I don’t know if they are on the rise. The OP was about if white supremacy is real or not. I did say mass shootings are on the rise and that there are more of them that have a political agenda. That would include the left. The gunmen who killed those cops in Dallas were motivated by BLM, I believe.
I never blamed Trump. I said his rhetoric is a reflection of what has been going on already. He just has a prominent and very public pulpit. He didn’t create the hate but he doesn’t mind spreading it.
Solutions? This is an internet forum. It’s a complex issue. Why don’t we cure cancer while we’re here.
I will say this. I hope you never have to go identify your child’s body after a mass shooting. I live in CT and I was watching TV when it was announced that there had been a school shooting in CT. I immediately thought of my kid who was in school at the time. I’m sure I wasn’t alone. Tell me why I should accept that as normal? Tell me why it’s so rare and the solution is too hard anyway, that no one should worry? People will commit mass murders no matter what we do so let’s do nothing. Do I understand you correctly?
You got the gist of my position on the tangential topic of gun control, yes. Good job. I think our current laws are right about where they should be. I would favor more comprehensive background checks and better inter-agency information sharing. I hope you found that clear.
Back on topic. At this point I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, aside from your usual hair splitting, subject changing and arguing for the sake of arguing. I did my best to summarize the points you made that were clear to me, but it seems like I got that wrong too.
Sure. But website traffic is dubious. A spike in the traffic might coincide with it’s prevalence in the media - how often it’s being talked about on, say CNN, or Fox, or w/e spikes interest from somewhat data savvy idiots like us to scrape their websites for traffic data, which, then, increases their data traffic contributing to said counts.
Not a true count of what we’re trying to measure now is it. There are ways to distinguish between people doing research with no propensity towards that ideology and legitimate perpetrators of said ideology, but they’re time consuming and difficult to align good data; otherwise you’re not going to prove anything with that method other than more people went to said sites, using just a strict count - and again, those numbers could be correlated with mentions in the media … you’d have to isolate the Streisand effect and account for it in your model I’d think for any meaningful analysis of this data…I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze
so does sheisse porn – doesn’t mean people are buying into the proverbial bullshit they spew at any prolonged accelerated rate now does it.
I like you but you need to be honest. The thread was about white supremacy, hoax or not? You are asking me to solve the problem when not everyone agrees there is a problem.
That’s why I said I’m not sure if white supremacy, not racism or nationalism (although they could be related at times), is on the rise. I believe it’s more accessible and has a wider reach than in the past. I also believe that we have a climate of incivility (maybe it’s an overreaction to PC culture) that emboldens people to post things online, possibly say things in public, and for a few, encourages them to kill.
I think that just looking at overt white supremacists alone is wrong. There are connections between far right extremists, incels, nationalists and white supremacists. There is is some common ground between them.
And since I’m fair, I have stated the left has its own versions of these groups. One worry I have is that some of these people on the left will end up following the example of the Red Brigades.
Tom Morello was on Bill Maher’s show a little while back and when asked about the whole punch a Nazi issue, he said he had no problems with punching Nazis. Maher was speechless and obviously caught off guard by that. He assumed that Morello was all about free speech. It just goes to show how full of shit Morello is and how much of a phony he is. It also shows how carelessly people will encourage violence and dehumanize others. I doubt MLK, who Morello probably admires, would have said to punch Nazis. He would have said they are human beings who we need to try and reach out to. I’m talking about Nazis in the US, today, not WW2, BTW.
I started by asking for examples to understand the specific nature of the perceived threat. It seems obvious that Mufasa feels white supremacy is a real threat. It seemed obvious you did too, but maybe you don’t.
I observed the consequences of advancing the notion in the op that white supremacy is a matter of grave concern, giving specific examples along the way.
Meanwhile you argued with me every step of the way, yet cannot seem to answer even basic questions or take a clear position on anything. I have a hard time following your train of thought. You’re all over the place and seem to avoid stating any clear positions.
If this is what were going with (it’s what I’d go with) the number of possible examples skyrocket. Apart from my generation, every family member I have back in WV would fit this description. Hell I could get you members of my wife’s family that aren’t even in rural areas. They’ve very clearly espoused beliefs of white being the superior race.
I agree - I see it being realized more by left leaning orgs such as Antifa who routinely block speakers just to the right of Marx, but I do only really see those reports coming out of the West coast. I DO NOT see alt-right or WS groups block leftist speakers with threats of violence…
I’m actually speechless Maher didn’t see that coming … Morello, while a fantastic guitarist, doesn’t really seem to me to be a reasonable person when he supports communists causes overtly. I believe he believes he’s fighting for the downtrodden, but I do not agree with his beliefs or tactics. And I’m really surprised Maher didn’t expect that…
I don’t think he’s a phony at all. He props up communism and socialism as if it’s the savior of humanity. I don’t give a flying fuck what he might say in soundbites, but, to my knowledge, he’s never espoused freedom of speech in practice. Again, I love his guitar playing, but his political beliefs are antithetical to freedom and individual liberty regardless of what comes out of his mouth…I think he knows this as I do not think he’s dumb or a useful idiot…
Which is why MLK is an American hero and Morello is a POS. MLK espoused virtue, despite his faults he had a beautiful vision of humanity and worked to bridge divides through his actions.
Of course racist and even white supremacist exist. People can have all kinds of crazy and destructive beliefs. I’m sure some of my Somalian neighbors would support all kinds of regressive policies, but I don’t find that particularly alarming. They don’t have any power to see it through.
The last openly white supremacist person I can think of with any real power was Strom Thurmond, born in 1902 and serving in the Senate until 2003. This was only viable for him after he softened his stances held during my fathers childhood in the 40s and 50s.
Which brings me back to the original question I asked. Who are these people? What are they up to? What, exactly, should we be concerned with and what steps can be taken to combat whatever it is that is most concerning?
Now that we have a somewhat clear example of modern white supremacy in your family, what do you think can or should be done?
I believe it exists and it’s a threat. How much of a threat is obviously debatable.
As far as how to address it: address it how? address the ideology or the violence?
I do believe that focusing on white supremacy is wrong. It’s all part of a web of hate based thinking on the part of angry, frustrated and disgruntled (typically) white males. It’s a weird, to me at least, subculture.
The left has its own versions and at some level they have things in common with those on the right. It’s like there’s this equation at work. I am angry (for whatever reasons), I have the right to be angry, I have the right to tell the word I’m angry (thank you social media), I have the right to commiserate with others who feel the same (thanks again social media), I have the right to kill people. Not everyone gets to the final step but they are certainly enabled by others sharing that journey.
I don’t know how much clearer I need to be.
But I’ll add this: I don’t like talking about my military service because I am one of millions who served so it’s no big deal to me. I also hated being in the military and I’m sure I’m not the only one who has felt that way. But I did join after 9/11. I wasn’t thinking about defending white people or people who think like I do. I was thinking of my country and its people (all of them). I’m sure others have felt the same thing. So when I see new “intellectuals” like Ben Shapiro, Milo, Candace Owens, who were influenced to some degree by Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter types, I feel the desire to punch all of them in the face. They all make money by sowing divisiveness, hate and ignorance. They contribute to Americans looking at each other like they are foreigners. It’s an us vs them scenario when it comes to everything. It’s winners and losers. There are a lot of problems out there and we don’t need to add hating one another to the list.
I don’t watch CNN, MSNBC and the like so I don’t know what many of those on the left are saying. I do watch Real Time because they usually have representatives of different views on. I also listen to NPR sometimes because even though it leans left, they don’t yell. I try and stick with newspapers. I have seen clips of Rachel Maddow and she comes off as unwatchable. People like her on the left don’t help either. The whole basket of deplorables mentality is the left’s version of what the right does. So to sum up, and to try and make myself clear, I believe we have a hate problem that crosses party lines and white supremacy is one part of it.
I think an important distinction would be the relative power difference. It would make perfect sense to me that somolians wouldn’t have a great foothold for their beliefs. They are, of course, competing with America’s largest demographic of white people.
Mostly rednecks and uneducated derps in my experience.
Mostly living on government assistance, same as most groups.
Repeated public shame and ridicule until such a time that these people are terrified to publicly state their beliefs.
Pretty much what’s happening. I don’t think any action needs to be added. I would just expect society to keep up the pressure given the recent bloom
I assumed he was all about free speech, and Maher must have thought the same thing. Although I’m sure if his music were under attack he would cry about free speech. His political beliefs still allow him to be a millionaire, however. He said that his grandfather was a WW2 vet and if he punched a Nazi (again, here in the US) he would have his back. I would have asked him if his grandfather had wanted to punch Colin Kapernick for taking a knee in front of the flag if he would have his back.
However…the problem is to downplay one side over the other as either a hoax; being non-existent; or not a real problem because they haven’t become click-bait… or are being emphasized on some feed or website that one one frequents.