Funny thing.
My Canadian-born Chinese friends have absolutely no sympathy for anyone claiming “minority status” or “oppression”.
Chinese families regularly move into developed countries and within two generations or less they go from the ghettos to the gated communities.
How?
The “magic” of hard work, community, family values, and sound financial habits.
It’s not that fucking hard.
ElbowStrike
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Funny thing.
My Canadian-born Chinese friends have absolutely no sympathy for anyone claiming “minority status” or “oppression”.
Chinese families regularly move into developed countries and within two generations or less they go from the ghettos to the gated communities.
How?
The “magic” of hard work, community, family values, and sound financial habits.
It’s not that fucking hard.
ElbowStrike[/quote]
There are over a billion Chinese on the planet. They are not allowed to claim minority status.
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Funny thing.
My Canadian-born Chinese friends have absolutely no sympathy for anyone claiming “minority status” or “oppression”.
Chinese families regularly move into developed countries and within two generations or less they go from the ghettos to the gated communities.
How?
The “magic” of hard work, community, family values, and sound financial habits.
It’s not that fucking hard.
ElbowStrike[/quote]
Do you not think choosing to emigrate to a country to make a buck and having your lands stolen by colonists might be a tad different? What proportion of the black US population actually chose to be there?
It’s not exactly the same thing.
[quote]lixy wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:
Funny thing.
My Canadian-born Chinese friends have absolutely no sympathy for anyone claiming “minority status” or “oppression”.
Chinese families regularly move into developed countries and within two generations or less they go from the ghettos to the gated communities.
How?
The “magic” of hard work, community, family values, and sound financial habits.
It’s not that fucking hard.
ElbowStrike
Do you not think choosing to emigrate to a country to make a buck and having your lands stolen by colonists might be a tad different? What proportion of the black US population actually chose to be there?
It’s not exactly the same thing.[/quote]
We are not holding the “black” population here, Anyone who does not like it here is more then welcome to go away.
The difference is, the black population has affirmative action to get ahead and are squandering it.
The Chinese get ahead on their own with no help at all.
[quote]John S. wrote:
We are not holding the “black” population here, [/quote]
Not anymore.
[quote]lixy wrote:
John S. wrote:
We are not holding the “black” population here,
Not anymore.[/quote]
Your point? The blacks have been free in this country longer than any of my relatives have been here. We faced a lot of prejudice here as well back in the early 1900’s yet we made it.
And:
Muslims have their hands deep into the African slave trade, back in the past and even today:
Check this out:
But anyway I have to agree with that guys blog post. And thats the case especially at my High School Black people and women are given better treatment than white dudes by administrators ,teachers, school staff (the rent-a-cops like to discriminate against white kids in general), and among my peers.
And its beginning to piss me off… but alas If i were to try the approaches you guys mentioned I would get my Ass kicked by a mob then I would get expelled and then thrown in Juvie for “Harboring raciest or derogatory Ideas & actions” and “Willfully instigating an altercation between students”. But an African American student did the same they would get a 2 week suspension and possible action on the part of law enforcement officials . Don’t believe me? It already happened to a Junior in November! well we are in a fine kettle of sewage (beacuse fish is actually good).
[quote]Gambles wrote:
well we are in a fine kettle of sewage.
[/quote]
Sounds more like a powder-keg.
Systematic discrimination tends to inspire backlash. Oppression of Blacks led to the rise of the Black Panther Party. Pulling all the women out of the workplace and forcing them back into the home after WW2 led to radical feminism.
Swinging too far the other way and oppressing individual white males (under the assumption of privilege) in the name of affirmative action could put us in danger of sympathy for the white power movement.
Couple that with an economic depression and… yikes. Not a place I want to live.
Colour-and-gender-blind policies don’t “fix” racism and discrimination right away, they need time. A generation or two, even. Short-term pain, long-term gain.
Affirmative action “fixing” the situation (on the surface) right away just means short-term gain, long-term pain.
That’s not effective decision-making.
ElbowStrike
All I know, is that at my High School I can basically get away with any small time rule breaking. I can cut, I can walk the halls during class, hell I’ve never served a single one of my 24 detentions last year and they were all wiped at the end, as if they never existed (for the record, they were all for cutting a study hall).
If A black student did ANY of those things, he’d be caught and forced into detention immediately. I have literally had security guards PASS me in the halls during s “sweep” for cutters so they could give a black guy detention. They let me walk away scott free.
In my town, the police hardly ever arrest the rich white kids from the Bay when they drive drunk. But you can bet your ass that five to ten cops hung out around the ghetto New Years eve, and that they harassed the sober drives. My friend, who is white, gets harassed by the police plenty because he drives his black friends home after Track. They are convinced he is selling the black kids crack (two officers have actually verbalized this assumption, thankfully my friend used to want to be a cop, and knew the police code well enough to tell them in a non-threatening way to go fuck themselves).
So regardless of all the complaining that “White guys have no rights”, and yes, reverse bigotry DOES exist, plain old white on black bigotry is still shining through. Hell, I live in New York, when I vacation in the South it’s about ten times as bad.
To pretend that reverse discrimination has actually over taken regular old white racism, is to me, fucking ridiculous.
I am NOT for affirmative action. I am NOT for such ridiculous sexual harassment policies. However to say “white guys have no rights” is a massive hyperbole. Especially because it implies that the opposite “black women have more rights” is true.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
All I know, is that at my High School I can basically get away with any small time rule breaking. I can cut, I can walk the halls during class, hell I’ve never served a single one of my 24 detentions last year and they were all wiped at the end, as if they never existed (for the record, they were all for cutting a study hall).
If A black student did ANY of those things, he’d be caught and forced into detention immediately. I have literally had security guards PASS me in the halls during s “sweep” for cutters so they could give a black guy detention. They let me walk away scott free.
In my town, the police hardly ever arrest the rich white kids from the Bay when they drive drunk. But you can bet your ass that five to ten cops hung out around the ghetto New Years eve, and that they harassed the sober drives. My friend, who is white, gets harassed by the police plenty because he drives his black friends home after Track. They are convinced he is selling the black kids crack (two officers have actually verbalized this assumption, thankfully my friend used to want to be a cop, and knew the police code well enough to tell them in a non-threatening way to go fuck themselves).
So regardless of all the complaining that “White guys have no rights”, and yes, reverse bigotry DOES exist, plain old white on black bigotry is still shining through. Hell, I live in New York, when I vacation in the South it’s about ten times as bad.
To pretend that reverse discrimination has actually over taken regular old white racism, is to me, fucking ridiculous.
I am NOT for affirmative action. I am NOT for such ridiculous sexual harassment policies. However to say “white guys have no rights” is a massive hyperbole. Especially because it implies that the opposite “black women have more rights” is true.[/quote]
I am calling bullshit. Unless you have concrete examples of those things you just mentioned, em masse. I don’t see white people getting away with a damn thing more than their black counter parts. Do you have a black kid in your school guilty of the same infractions as you, who got caught as you did, with the same history as you, who got in trouble where as you didn’t?
[quote]pat36 wrote:
I am calling bullshit. Unless you have concrete examples of those things you just mentioned, em masse. I don’t see white people getting away with a damn thing more than their black counter parts. Do you have a black kid in your school guilty of the same infractions as you, who got caught as you did, with the same history as you, who got in trouble where as you didn’t?
[/quote]
I agree with pat here… I had a similar experience to yours in high school, Beowolf (no detentions, however). The administrators were black. This is typical, I think, of urban high schools in which you have a wide gap between classes of students who are generally “good kids,” and troublemakers who really are there because they want to sell drugs or have nothing else to do. In an overcrowded school, administrators/security do several things to try to efficiently manage the population. They expend less effort on “good kids” they know, more effort on bad kids they know, and “profile” the kids they don’t know. It may not be ideal, but that’s how things work. I don’t think it’s racial.
[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Funny thing.
My Canadian-born Chinese friends have absolutely no sympathy for anyone claiming “minority status” or “oppression”.
Chinese families regularly move into developed countries and within two generations or less they go from the ghettos to the gated communities.
How?
The “magic” of hard work, community, family values, and sound financial habits.
It’s not that fucking hard.
ElbowStrike[/quote]
Yup. Cultures that have emphasized the improtance of education historically and notoriously do well. However, it is ignorant to ignore the instiutionalized bias that still exists against some races and communties and the whole history. That does not mean there is an excuse for them not to rise above and prosper. But there are unique challenges each group faces.
[quote]Beowolf wrote:
All I know, is that at my High School I can basically get away with any small time rule breaking. I can cut, I can walk the halls during class, hell I’ve never served a single one of my 24 detentions last year and they were all wiped at the end, as if they never existed (for the record, they were all for cutting a study hall).
If A black student did ANY of those things, he’d be caught and forced into detention immediately. I have literally had security guards PASS me in the halls during s “sweep” for cutters so they could give a black guy detention. They let me walk away scott free.
In my town, the police hardly ever arrest the rich white kids from the Bay when they drive drunk. But you can bet your ass that five to ten cops hung out around the ghetto New Years eve, and that they harassed the sober drives. My friend, who is white, gets harassed by the police plenty because he drives his black friends home after Track. They are convinced he is selling the black kids crack (two officers have actually verbalized this assumption, thankfully my friend used to want to be a cop, and knew the police code well enough to tell them in a non-threatening way to go fuck themselves).
So regardless of all the complaining that “White guys have no rights”, and yes, reverse bigotry DOES exist, plain old white on black bigotry is still shining through. Hell, I live in New York, when I vacation in the South it’s about ten times as bad.
To pretend that reverse discrimination has actually over taken regular old white racism, is to me, fucking ridiculous.
I am NOT for affirmative action. I am NOT for such ridiculous sexual harassment policies. However to say “white guys have no rights” is a massive hyperbole. Especially because it implies that the opposite “black women have more rights” is true.[/quote]
I agree. I am not for affirmative action and ridiculous sexual harassment policies either. But in my daily life, I still see minorities and women at a decided disadvantage compared to us. It’s just not like the 50s where you were essentially a god if you were a white man with a good job. I do think that women and minorities are at advantage when it comes to hiring. But this does not continue. It still is a boys club to a large degree. Women and minorities have a harder time rising to the top level. And not because of any lack of talent. I see it everywhere. Certainly at my law firm. Certainly in the ibanking and finance world. As far as harassment goes, it’s a tough issues. There is a lot of legitimate harrassment that goes on.
[quote]
Beowolf wrote:
All I know, is that at my High School I can basically get away with any small time rule breaking. I can cut, I can walk the halls during class, hell I’ve never served a single one of my 24 detentions last year and they were all wiped at the end, as if they never existed (for the record, they were all for cutting a study hall).
If A black student did ANY of those things, he’d be caught and forced into detention immediately. I have literally had security guards PASS me in the halls during s “sweep” for cutters so they could give a black guy detention. They let me walk away scott free.
In my town, the police hardly ever arrest the rich white kids from the Bay when they drive drunk. But you can bet your ass that five to ten cops hung out around the ghetto New Years eve, and that they harassed the sober drives. My friend, who is white, gets harassed by the police plenty because he drives his black friends home after Track. They are convinced he is selling the black kids crack (two officers have actually verbalized this assumption, thankfully my friend used to want to be a cop, and knew the police code well enough to tell them in a non-threatening way to go fuck themselves).
So regardless of all the complaining that “White guys have no rights”, and yes, reverse bigotry DOES exist, plain old white on black bigotry is still shining through. Hell, I live in New York, when I vacation in the South it’s about ten times as bad.
To pretend that reverse discrimination has actually over taken regular old white racism, is to me, fucking ridiculous.
I am NOT for affirmative action. I am NOT for such ridiculous sexual harassment policies. However to say “white guys have no rights” is a massive hyperbole. Especially because it implies that the opposite “black women have more rights” is true.
jsbrook wrote:
I agree. I am not for affirmative action and ridiculous sexual harassment policies either. But in my daily life, I still see minorities and women at a decided disadvantage compared to us. It’s just not like the 50s where you were essentially a god if you were a white man with a good job. I do think that women and minorities are at advantage when it comes to hiring. But this does not continue. It still is a boys club to a large degree. Women and minorities have a harder time rising to the top level. And not because of any lack of talent. I see it everywhere. Certainly at my law firm. Certainly in the ibanking and finance world. As far as harassment goes, it’s a tough issues. There is a lot of legitimate harrassment that goes on. [/quote]
Assuming arguendo that both of you are correct and that your observations are largely representative, does it matter to either of you that on the one hand you are observing either private or public-figure illegal behavior, and on the other you are getting an explicit governmental policy?
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
All I know, is that at my High School I can basically get away with any small time rule breaking. I can cut, I can walk the halls during class, hell I’ve never served a single one of my 24 detentions last year and they were all wiped at the end, as if they never existed (for the record, they were all for cutting a study hall).
If A black student did ANY of those things, he’d be caught and forced into detention immediately. I have literally had security guards PASS me in the halls during s “sweep” for cutters so they could give a black guy detention. They let me walk away scott free.
In my town, the police hardly ever arrest the rich white kids from the Bay when they drive drunk. But you can bet your ass that five to ten cops hung out around the ghetto New Years eve, and that they harassed the sober drives. My friend, who is white, gets harassed by the police plenty because he drives his black friends home after Track. They are convinced he is selling the black kids crack (two officers have actually verbalized this assumption, thankfully my friend used to want to be a cop, and knew the police code well enough to tell them in a non-threatening way to go fuck themselves).
So regardless of all the complaining that “White guys have no rights”, and yes, reverse bigotry DOES exist, plain old white on black bigotry is still shining through. Hell, I live in New York, when I vacation in the South it’s about ten times as bad.
To pretend that reverse discrimination has actually over taken regular old white racism, is to me, fucking ridiculous.
I am NOT for affirmative action. I am NOT for such ridiculous sexual harassment policies. However to say “white guys have no rights” is a massive hyperbole. Especially because it implies that the opposite “black women have more rights” is true.
jsbrook wrote:
I agree. I am not for affirmative action and ridiculous sexual harassment policies either. But in my daily life, I still see minorities and women at a decided disadvantage compared to us. It’s just not like the 50s where you were essentially a god if you were a white man with a good job. I do think that women and minorities are at advantage when it comes to hiring. But this does not continue. It still is a boys club to a large degree. Women and minorities have a harder time rising to the top level. And not because of any lack of talent. I see it everywhere. Certainly at my law firm. Certainly in the ibanking and finance world. As far as harassment goes, it’s a tough issues. There is a lot of legitimate harrassment that goes on.
Assuming arguendo that both of you are correct and that your observations are largely representative, does it matter to either of you that on the one hand you are observing either private or public-figure illegal behavior, and on the other you are getting an explicit governmental policy?[/quote]
It depends on your view of what role government should play in society. If you think it’s government’s place to right inequities in society, that counsels for affirmative action. Personally, I think affirmative action policies are deeply flawed. I don’t agree that the government should ‘right inequities’ if the form that takes is hiring unqualified applicants over qualfied ones. Same in the educational realm. And affirmative action has done a lot of that. I have much less of an issue with giving preferential treatment to equally qualified minority applicants. But I wouldn’t say that laws against sexual harrassment are the same as a comprehensive policy of affirmative action designed to elevate a particular group. Sexual harassment is against the law for good reason. Like discrimination. Theft. Rape. There should be laws against sexual harassment because its an action we have deemed unacceptable like any other and because it still exists and is a problem. I don’t think there should be tough policies with the goal of elevating women in the workplace but because sexual harassment is an ongoing problem. And it’s not something that anyone of either sex should have to deal with in the workplace. It doesn’t have to be gender-specific, though. It really shouldn’t be. As women do gain positions of power, they too can condition benefits or threaten job security on sexual acquiesence. If anything is the problem, it’s prevailing perceptions and how we apply the law and not the law itself. You can’t go in with a presumption of guilt against a male employer/supervisor and assume that he is guilty of harassment just because a woman alleges he is. And you can’t just assume any male subordinate claiming to be harassed by a woman is full of shit.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
It depends on your view of what role government should play in society. If you think it’s government’s place to right inequities in society, that counsels for affirmative action. Personally, I think affirmative action policies are deeply flawed. I don’t agree that the government should ‘right inequities’ if the form that takes is hiring unqualified applicants over qualfied ones. Same in the educational realm. And affirmative action has done a lot of that. I have much less of an issue with giving preferential treatment to equally qualified minority applicants. But I wouldn’t say that laws against sexual harrassment are the same as a comprehensive policy of affirmative action designed to elevate a particular group. Sexual harassment is against the law for good reason. Like discrimination. Theft. Rape. There should be laws against sexual harassment because its an action we have deemed unacceptable like any other and because it still exists and is a problem. I don’t think there should be tough policies with the goal of elevating women in the workplace but because sexual harassment is an ongoing problem. And it’s not something that anyone of either sex should have to deal with in the workplace. It doesn’t have to be gender-specific, though. It really shouldn’t be. As women do gain positions of power, they too can condition benefits or threaten job security on sexual acquiesence. If anything is the problem, it’s prevailing perceptions and how we apply the law and not the law itself. You can’t go in with a presumption of guilt against a male employer/supervisor and assume that he is guilty of harassment just because a woman alleges he is. And you can’t just assume any male subordinate claiming to be harassed by a woman is full of shit.[/quote]
I generally agree with you, with some minor quibbles not worth pointing out for this discussion.
Now, return to my OP in this thread and let me know what you think of the State of CA’s government-mandated training program, and the messages it is portraying.
My lawyer tells me it could cost 10K to fight an attempt to fire me from my job…Many dont like one “messin’ round with dem’ white wimmin’”…Dont tell me racism is extinct, Baby…
[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
My lawyer tells me it could cost 10K to fight an attempt to fire me from my job…Many dont like one “messin’ round with dem’ white wimmin’”…Dont tell me racism is extinct, Baby…[/quote]
It’s obviously not extinct when it’s built into the law…
Im a black guy, and I can say some of you have a point. It does seem that white guys are done wrong a lot of times.
I heard someone say that they have a United Negro College Fund where they only give money to black students, but if there was a comparable organization that gave money to only white students it would be called racist.