Given the choice between whey hydrolysates and whey/casein hydrosysates, which would you guys put in your PWO shake in addition to dextrose/malto, BCAAs and creatine?
I know most will jump and say whey, but I’ve been talking to a few people who say a blend of whey and casein is superior…
if you think about it it makes sense, having both fast and slow proteins post workout to get the most out of it, but i don’t know any of the science behind it. i use 3/4 a scoop of whey and 3/4 a scoop of casein PWO and it’s been working well for me. whether i’m making better gains than when i just drank whey is hard to say.
I know i read somewhere that JB suggests a whey/casein blend PWO, but it’s gonna take me a bit to find the article.
okay, i was wrong. it was CW who gets behind a blend PWO, and John Berardi disagrees. at this point i’m just gonna say try both and see what works better for you.
"CW: Why only use whey as your post-workout meal, John? So you’re telling me you don’t want to decrease catabolism after a workout, in addition to increasing amino acid concentrations? Whey, by itself is a big pain in the ass! Having to continually ingest 30 to 40 grams every couple of hours sucks.
Like the previous study demonstrated, amino acid concentrations return to baseline too quickly with whey. The quick rise in amino acid concentrations also causes oxidation rates to increase so quickly that no overall increase in protein accretion is seen.
So, why not have a slow releasing protein post-workout? It provides a steady amount of amino acids, providing a decrease in catabolism, and an increase in anabolism. You need to slow the digestion rate down with whey. A faster absorption rate isn’t going to equate to more muscle. It’s been demonstrated to be just the opposite.
JB: Whoa, big fella. I don’t wanna piss you off since you’re about 7 inches taller and 40 pounds heavier than me, but I’m not sure I agree with you. In 1997, Biolo showed that an immediate rise in plasma amino acids after exercise was more anabolic than when ingested sometime later.
This, to me, means that whey should be ingested immediately after the workout due to its really fast absorption rates. I know that in the study there was more protein oxidation with whey, but the protein wasn’t given after a workout. As you know, the physiology is just different.
Researchers think that after a workout catabolism can be prevented and anabolism induced with a hearty portion of quickly delivered amino acids. So, after the workout, I just don’t think oxidation would increase with whey because the intramuscular demands for aminos are just too great.
Remember that in the study, blood amino acid levels with whey were still greater than casein after two hours. So by taking a big dose of whey immediately after the workout, you’re going to flood the body with aminos and this rise will stay up for about two hours, reaching levels higher than casein can.
Then at the two hour mark, if you eat some other protein meal, you’re set up for the day. I really think, though, that you need that infusion of aminos that whey can give right after the workout.
The next question is, why not whey and casein together? Well, combining whey and casein might lead to a slowing of whey absorption. In this case you’d be missing out on some of the protein synthesis that you could get otherwise.
Personally, I mix up a 50 gram whey shake and bring it to the gym with me. Immediately after my training I drink it down. Then, about 60 to 90 minutes later, I take in about 50 grams of casein (cottage cheese) with a bunch of carbs. Fair enough?"
That’s splitting hairs guys.
A PWO shake of some sort is really what it’s all about.
Don’t sweat the small stuff.
[quote]CafeThief wrote:
if you think about it it makes sense, having both fast and slow proteins post workout to get the most out of it, but i don’t know any of the science behind it. i use 3/4 a scoop of whey and 3/4 a scoop of casein PWO and it’s been working well for me. whether i’m making better gains than when i just drank whey is hard to say.
I know i read somewhere that JB suggests a whey/casein blend PWO, but it’s gonna take me a bit to find the article.[/quote]
The OP was asking about hydrolysates, which are quite a bit different than regular whey or casein.
Both WPH and CH are considered very “fast” proteins.
[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
That’s splitting hairs guys.
A PWO shake of some sort is really what it’s all about.
Don’t sweat the small stuff. [/quote]
agree 100%
I do a blend: 20-25 whey, 10-15 casein: As far as evidence:
"Here’s a quote from Berardi referencing this study…
Bos, C, et al. British Journal of Nutrition. 81, 221-226, 1999
"Milk protein is composed of 80% casein and 20% whey. Milk is interesting in that, believe it or not, the whey and casein fractions are absorbed separately. In one study, subjects consumed skimmed milk and were evaluated over the course of eight hours.
With milk-protein ingestion, there’s a rapid rise in blood amino acids within one hour (probably as a result of the whey fraction), a plateau from one to three hours (a combination of simultaneous whey and casein absorption), and then there’s a progressive decline over the course of the next eight hours. However, blood amino acids are still elevated at the eight hour point as a result of the casein fraction."
So in other words, Berardi does like the blend for the fact that blood amino levels are elevated longer.
Ghost22 and playmaker08, you’re right. But I try to do everything in my power to get an advantage. That’s how I got into bodybuilding - looking for an edge over my competitors in soccer.
Casein hydrosolates ARE superior.
Google Pepto-pro.
BTW, a study comparing whey(40g) vs whey(40g)/casein(8g) found that the whey/casein mixture given pwo was superior to regular whey in protein synthesis.
[quote]Trenchant wrote:
So in other words, Berardi does like the blend for the fact that blood amino levels are elevated longer. [/quote]
I’m afraid you’re taking John’s words out of context there. He has quite orthodox views when it comes to PWO nutrition (i.e: the faster, the better!). Remember, he’s behind the Surge formula and there ain’t any casein in there.
Besides, my question was about hydrolysates. Any other form of casein would coagulate and may potentially trap the whey and slow down the latter’s absorption.
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
Casein hydrosolates ARE superior.
Google Pepto-pro.
BTW, a study comparing whey(40g) vs whey(40g)/casein(8g) found that the whey/casein mixture given pwo was superior to regular whey in protein synthesis.[/quote]
By how much? I’m guessing the difference was negligible.
I would go with whey. Especially if you have a meal 30-60 minutes after your shake. Who cares about the caesin fractions then?
[quote]Ghost22 wrote:
That’s splitting hairs guys.
A PWO shake of some sort is really what it’s all about.
Don’t sweat the small stuff. [/quote]
Agreed, Steve Reeves, Vince Gironda and all those old school lifters had post work out protein that consisted of meat or eggs.
[quote]analog_kid wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
Casein hydrosolates ARE superior.
Google Pepto-pro.
BTW, a study comparing whey(40g) vs whey(40g)/casein(8g) found that the whey/casein mixture given pwo was superior to regular whey in protein synthesis.
By how much? I’m guessing the difference was negligible.
[/quote]
Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers.
Demling RH, DeSanti L.
Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA 02115, USA. rhdemling@partners.org
We compare the effects of a moderate hypocaloric, high-protein diet and resistance training, using two different protein supplements, versus hypocaloric diet alone on body compositional changes in overweight police officers. A randomized, prospective 12-week study was performed comparing the changes in body composition produced by three different treatment modalities in three study groups. One group (n = 10) was placed on a nonlipogenic, hypocaloric diet alone (80% of predicted needs). A second group (n = 14) was placed on the hypocaloric diet plus resistance exercise plus a high-protein intake (1.5 g/kg/day) using a casein protein hydrolysate. In the third group (n = 14) treatment was identical to the second, except for the use of a whey protein hydrolysate. We found that weight loss was approximately 2.5 kg in all three groups. Mean percent body fat with diet alone decreased from a baseline of 27 +/- 1.8 to 25 +/- 1.3% at 12 weeks. With diet, exercise and casein the decrease was from 26 +/- 1.7 to 18 +/- 1.1% and with diet, exercise and whey protein the decrease was from 27 +/- 1.6 to 23 +/- 1.3%. The mean fat loss was 2. 5 +/- 0.6, 7.0 +/- 2.1 and 4.2 +/- 0.9 kg in the three groups, respectively. Lean mass gains in the three groups did not change for diet alone, versus gains of 4 +/- 1.4 and 2 +/- 0.7 kg in the casein and whey groups, respectively. Mean increase in strength for chest, shoulder and legs was 59 +/- 9% for casein and 29 +/- 9% for whey, a significant group difference. This significant difference in body composition and strength is likely due to improved nitrogen retention and overall anticatabolic effects caused by the peptide components of the casein hydrolysate. Copyright 2000 S. Karger AG, Basel
concludes that casein hydro to be superior to whey hydro in overweight cops
Ingestion of casein and whey proteins result in muscle anabolism after resistance exercise.
Tipton KD, Elliott TA, Cree MG, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Wolfe RR.
Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children and Department of Surgery, The University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX 77550, USA. ktipton@utmb.edu
PURPOSE: Determination of the anabolic response to exercise and nutrition is important for individuals who may benefit from increased muscle mass. Intake of free amino acids after resistance exercise stimulates net muscle protein synthesis. The response of muscle protein balance to intact protein ingestion after exercise has not been studied. This study was designed to examine the acute response of muscle protein balance to ingestion of two different intact proteins after resistance exercise. METHODS: Healthy volunteers were randomly assigned to one of three groups. Each group consumed one of three drinks: placebo (PL; N = 7), 20 g of casein (CS; N = 7), or whey proteins (WH; N = 9). Volunteers consumed the drink 1 h after the conclusion of a leg extension exercise bout. Leucine and phenylalanine concentrations were measured in femoral arteriovenous samples to determine balance across the leg. RESULTS: Arterial amino acid concentrations were elevated by protein ingestion, but the pattern of appearance was different for CS and WH. Net amino acid balance switched from negative to positive after ingestion of both proteins. Peak leucine net balance over time was greater for WH (347 +/- 50 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg) than CS (133 +/- 45 nmol.min(-1).100 mL(-1) leg), but peak phenylalanine balance was similar for CS and WH. Ingestion of both CS and WH stimulated a significantly larger net phenylalanine uptake after resistance exercise, compared with the PL (PL -5 +/- 15 mg, CS 84 +/- 10 mg, WH 62 +/- 18 mg). Amino acid uptake relative to amount ingested was similar for both CS and WH (approximately 10-15%). CONCLUSIONS: Acute ingestion of both WH and CS after exercise resulted in similar increases in muscle protein net balance, resulting in net muscle protein synthesis despite different patterns of blood amino acid responses.
regular whey and casein consumed pwo provides comparable results
The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training.
Kerksick CM, Rasmussen CJ, Lancaster SL, Magu B, Smith P, Melton C, Greenwood M, Almada AL, Earnest CP, Kreider RB.
Center for Exercise, Nutrition and Preventive Health Research, Department of Health, Human Performance and Recreation, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798, USA.
The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of whey protein supplementation on body composition, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and anaerobic capacity during 10 weeks of resistance training. Thirty-six resistance-trained males (31.0 +/- 8.0 years, 179.1 +/- 8.0 cm, 84.0 +/- 12.9 kg, 17.8 +/- 6.6%) followed a 4 days-per-week split body part resistance training program for 10 weeks. Three groups of supplements were randomly assigned, prior to the beginning of the exercise program, in a double-blind manner to all subjects: 48 g per day (g.d(-1)) carbohydrate placebo (P), 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 8 g.d(-1) of casein (WC), or 40 g.d(-1) of whey protein + 3 g.d(-1) branched-chain amino acids + 5 g.d(-1) L-glutamine (WBG). At 0, 5, and 10 weeks, subjects were tested for fasting blood samples, body mass, body composition using dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (DEXA), 1 repetition maximum (1RM) bench and leg press, 80% 1RM maximal repetitions to fatigue for bench press and leg press, and 30-second Wingate anaerobic capacity tests. No changes (p > 0.05) were noted in all groups for energy intake, training volume, blood parameters, and anaerobic capacity.
WC experienced the greatest increases in DEXA lean mass (P = 0.0 +/- 0.9; WC = 1.9 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.3 kg, p < 0.05) and DEXA fat-free mass (P = 0.1 +/- 1.0; WC = 1.8 +/- 0.6; WBG = -0.1 +/- 0.2 kg, p < 0.05). Significant increases in 1RM bench press and leg press were observed in all groups after 10 weeks. In this study, the combination of whey and casein protein promoted the greatest increases in fat-free mass after 10 weeks of heavy resistance training. Athletes, coaches, and nutritionists can use these findings to increase fat-free mass and to improve body composition during resistance training.
whey + casein superior to whey + bcaa + glutamine and a carbohydrate only supplement
[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
I would go with whey. Especially if you have a meal 30-60 minutes after your shake. Who cares about the caesin fractions then?[/quote]
It’s not about the fractions, it’s about the di and tri peptides that provide the edge in anabolism.
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
Brant_Drake wrote:
I would go with whey. Especially if you have a meal 30-60 minutes after your shake. Who cares about the casein fractions then?
It’s not about the fractions, it’s about the di and tri peptides that provide the edge in anabolism.[/quote]
In those studies you posted it makes no mention of what was eaten after the shake. I doubt they were eating a full meal after the shake, which would allow protein concentrations to fall in a whey only shake (or bacc/glutamine), when including casein would solve that problem.
Plus I don’t think studies done on overweight, presumable sedentary people are 100% applicable to us.
But to each their own. Obviously this has been working for you, so there you go.
[quote]Brant_Drake wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
Brant_Drake wrote:
I would go with whey. Especially if you have a meal 30-60 minutes after your shake. Who cares about the casein fractions then?
It’s not about the fractions, it’s about the di and tri peptides that provide the edge in anabolism.
In those studies you posted it makes no mention of what was eaten after the shake. I doubt they were eating a full meal after the shake, which would allow protein concentrations to fall in a whey only shake (or bacc/glutamine), when including casein would solve that problem.
Plus I don’t think studies done on overweight, presumable sedentary people are 100% applicable to us.
But to each their own. Obviously this has been working for you, so there you go.[/quote]
The third study is with people with resistance training experience. The second was with “healthy volunteers” which could mean anything really. The first was with overweight cops.
So, with your arguement about the third group. The one with Whey+glutamine+bcaa…even if a meal were to be consumed about 30-60 minutes later, does that mean that the bcaa’s and glutamine are useless taken pwo? I think it shows they may be of little benefit in free form and in a small dose(nothing really surprising about a small dose not working I guess)
I am not trying to sway or convince people to change what they are doing. If it works for people to eat a meal or have a whey only shake, then great. I’m just showing evidence contrary to accepted thought so people can gain a bit of an edge 
Always a good thing!
Yikes.
In spite of the original question, this thread has turned into whey vs. casein.
Overall whey is superior for anabolism, recovery, and fat loss, but it’s higher maintenance than casein. In other words, there’s a specific way in which you use whey, whereas casein you can just take and forget about.
Much of The Anabolic Index involves the optimal use of whey (and casein) for peak performance, growth, and fat loss.
For further reading, here are a couple of articles on the subject:
The Real Scoop on Post-Workout Recovery Drinks http://www.T-Nation.com/article/supplements/the_naked_truth_1&cr=
The Top 10 Post-Workout Myths: http://www.T-Nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths&cr=
[quote]David Barr wrote:
Yikes.
In spite of the original question, this thread has turned into whey vs. casein.
Overall whey is superior for anabolism, recovery, and fat loss, but it’s higher maintenance than casein. In other words, there’s a specific way in which you use whey, whereas casein you can just take and forget about.
Much of The Anabolic Index involves the optimal use of whey (and casein) for peak performance, growth, and fat loss.
For further reading, here are a couple of articles on the subject:
The Real Scoop on Post-Workout Recovery Drinks http://www.T-Nation.com/article/supplements/the_naked_truth_1&cr=
The Top 10 Post-Workout Myths: http://www.T-Nation.com/article/diet_and_nutrition/the_top_10_post_workout_nutrition_myths&cr=
[/quote]
Quick! Alert the Media! Dave Barr is back!
haha, jk. Glad to have you back and setting us straight. Just one more question. I don’t mean to highjack the thread, but I’ve been wondering about people’s use of Superfood PWO. I even used your article as evidence against taking it then and people shrugged it off. What’s your view on taking Superfood PWO, Dave?
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
concludes that casein hydro to be superior to whey hydro in overweight cops
[/quote]
Did they include donuts in the study as well? Who the hell sponsors these kinds of studies? They would be better off paying me to go the the strip club and get drunk.