What Makes America so Great?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I think its possible to create a government that acts to follow that as its primary axiom. As long as it is enforcing that axiom and arresting/defeating those who violate the axiom, then its actions (even if violent) are moral and just.

What happens when I do not want to voluntarily follow its laws? Will the government just forget about me and just let me live my life? I think not.

In an anarchic society that respects natural rights if a particular “rule” did not agree with me I would leave or change providers.[/quote]

Its only laws would be that you not harm another person. If you violate those laws, then you would be arrested. How is that idea wrong?

42

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

[/quote]

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?

43

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I think its possible to create a government that acts to follow that as its primary axiom. As long as it is enforcing that axiom and arresting/defeating those who violate the axiom, then its actions (even if violent) are moral and just.

What happens when I do not want to voluntarily follow its laws? Will the government just forget about me and just let me live my life? I think not.

In an anarchic society that respects natural rights if a particular “rule” did not agree with me I would leave or change providers.

Its only laws would be that you not harm another person. If you violate those laws, then you would be arrested. How is that idea wrong?

[/quote]

Your owning property harms me because I want it. What right do you have to it?

44

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Its only laws would be that you not harm another person. If you violate those laws, then you would be arrested. How is that idea wrong?

[/quote]

Who exactly would arrest me if I violated your laws (which restrict me by the way)?

If there were no taxes, laws would only be those that could pay for enforcement. So now you have a class a system, those protected by “laws” and those not represented.

45

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?[/quote]

I think your hypothetical is a little off.

If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

46

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The idea of taxes treats humans as cattle, or perhaps milking cows. I would say that if a government can only exist by forcing its citizens to pay for it, then that government is immoral.

There are many ideas for financing that is non-extortionary. An excellent example is offering a choice, when purchasing real estate, of whether the buyer wants government protection from fraud. Paying a small fee ensures that the government will pursue and prosecute any fraud. You have a CHOICE to not pay the fee. If you are defrauded, you’re out of luck. If you were buying property from your parents, you probably wouldn’t buy this insurance, for example. If you were buying from a stranger, you’d certainly opt for the insurance.

Government should be something you hire, NOT something you obey or else.

[/quote]

there are many other ways for gov’t to collect money. all we have to do is look at the services the gov’t should be providing. The legal system is probably the easiest as offers protection in so many ways. I think it was Friedman that suggested tacking a very small tax on every credit card transaction. These transactions are protected by the courts (if you choose) and would have tremendous revenue producing potential. The consumer would also have the choice of not using a method of payment not enforced by law.

Anything that has to do with enforcing contracts is an easy selection. Consumption tax is another one. You want to use gov’t financed roads? Gas tax, license fees, etc.

If the private industry want to keep the FDA and other regulatory agencies, let businesses that way the certification pay a fee. Make complience to regulation optional. Let the consumer decide wether to purchase regulated or non regulated products.

Property tax or renters tax for local police, fire, etc.

47

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Its only laws would be that you not harm another person. If you violate those laws, then you would be arrested. How is that idea wrong?
[/quote]

If that were actually the case that is fine but we still have a problem with monopoly enforcement.

The best explanation I have ever heard for what government is was given by Dr. Hans Hermann-Hoppe: “Imagine being stranded on an island and having one individual decide to be the arbitrator for all violations including violations he was involved in…”

Government is the de facto arbitrator for all cases including the ones itself is involved in. Therein lies the problem.

48

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?

I think your hypothetical is a little off.

If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?
[/quote]

I think yours is a little off!

49

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…nobody has yet to answer how the new america could look like. How does this society function? Do you pay taxes at all? Is everything privatized? If you don’t pay taxes, do you expect to be left with more money in your pocket when you have to pay for everything else? Clear this up for me please?

The idea of taxes treats humans as cattle, or perhaps milking cows. I would say that if a government can only exist by forcing its citizens to pay for it, then that government is immoral.

There are many ideas for financing that is non-extortionary. An excellent example is offering a choice, when purchasing real estate, of whether the buyer wants government protection from fraud. Paying a small fee ensures that the government will pursue and prosecute any fraud. You have a CHOICE to not pay the fee. If you are defrauded, you’re out of luck. If you were buying property from your parents, you probably wouldn’t buy this insurance, for example. If you were buying from a stranger, you’d certainly opt for the insurance.

Government should be something you hire, NOT something you obey or else. [/quote]

…who will build roads? Who will provide you with clean drinking water? Will there be a public school system? How about health care? Answer me this: will an average earner who does not pay taxes in your world have more money in his pocket after he has to pay for everything else?

50

[quote]NateOrade wrote:

…And why is it suddenly not cool to say positive things about the United States? I love this country. I’m incredibly grateful I was born and raised here. I love the entrepreneurial possibilities there are. I love that people can get rich if they want to and that people can lose their ass if they screw up.
[/quote]

Good post. It has become trendy to say bad things about the US. We need to bring back the 70’s phrase:

“America, love it or leave it.”

I’m tired of the whining.

51

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?

I think your hypothetical is a little off.

If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

I think yours is a little off!
[/quote]

It isn´t.

Do you have any arguments as to why it could be?

52

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?

I think your hypothetical is a little off.

If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

I think yours is a little off!

It isn´t.

Do you have any arguments as to why it could be?

[/quote]

Speak English.

53

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…nobody has yet to answer how the new america could look like. How does this society function? Do you pay taxes at all? Is everything privatized? If you don’t pay taxes, do you expect to be left with more money in your pocket when you have to pay for everything else? Clear this up for me please?

The idea of taxes treats humans as cattle, or perhaps milking cows. I would say that if a government can only exist by forcing its citizens to pay for it, then that government is immoral.

There are many ideas for financing that is non-extortionary. An excellent example is offering a choice, when purchasing real estate, of whether the buyer wants government protection from fraud. Paying a small fee ensures that the government will pursue and prosecute any fraud. You have a CHOICE to not pay the fee. If you are defrauded, you’re out of luck. If you were buying property from your parents, you probably wouldn’t buy this insurance, for example. If you were buying from a stranger, you’d certainly opt for the insurance.

Government should be something you hire, NOT something you obey or else.

…who will build roads? Who will provide you with clean drinking water? Will there be a public school system? How about health care? Answer me this: will an average earner who does not pay taxes in your world have more money in his pocket after he has to pay for everything else?

[/quote]

Not now, but invariably in a few years, because a rising tide does indeed lift all boats.

Compare an average growth rate of 5% p.a with one that is only 3% p.a because someone “redistributes” wealth.

1,03^50= 4,38
1,05^50= 11,47

11,47/4,38= 2,62

Meaning, that if noone redistributed wealth, we would be 11,5 as rich in 50 years, were even the poorest enjoy a wealth unheard of and the ability to pay for all the things you mentioned above with plenty to spare and now we will only have
4,4 as much which is less than 40% of that.

Redistribution not only steals from the rich now, but also from the relatively rich to come, namely future generations.

The only thing that could possibly be worse is to finance a welfare system with debt because that robs your children and there children in every way possible, IF they decide to pick up the bill.

Which is of course exactly what is happening now.

54

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?

I think your hypothetical is a little off.

If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

I think yours is a little off!

It isn´t.

Do you have any arguments as to why it could be?

Speak English.[/quote]

Make sense for once.

55

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…who will build roads? Who will provide you with clean drinking water? Will there be a public school system? How about health care? Answer me this: will an average earner who does not pay taxes in your world have more money in his pocket after he has to pay for everything else?

[/quote]

First of all, i don’t even think you’re reading the posts. I am not going to address your questions that have already been answered or are about services that are already provided by private industry.

The average wage earner may not have more money in their pocket. That depends on how much of their money they choose to spend. Everyone will get more for their money.

The standard of living will be increased for the country as a whole. Whether people choose to better themselves or spiral into misery with the gov’t taking care of them is up to the individual.

56

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
NateOrade wrote:

…And why is it suddenly not cool to say positive things about the United States? I love this country. I’m incredibly grateful I was born and raised here. I love the entrepreneurial possibilities there are. I love that people can get rich if they want to and that people can lose their ass if they screw up.

Good post. It has become trendy to say bad things about the US. We need to bring back the 70’s phrase:

“America, love it or leave it.”

I’m tired of the whining.[/quote]

I think it is great people tell the good things about America , but I also think with out saying what is wrong with America , is to accept it .

57

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

I think yours is a little off!
[/quote]

Answer his question.

58

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
NateOrade wrote:

…And why is it suddenly not cool to say positive things about the United States? I love this country. I’m incredibly grateful I was born and raised here. I love the entrepreneurial possibilities there are. I love that people can get rich if they want to and that people can lose their ass if they screw up.

Good post. It has become trendy to say bad things about the US. We need to bring back the 70’s phrase:

“America, love it or leave it.”

I’m tired of the whining.[/quote]

Love which America? The America created with the declaration of independance, Consitution, and Bill of Rights? Or the bastard child of that America and Communism? If you love it, why would you stand by and watch it ruined? If you love something you sure as hell take an interest in it. Maybe it should be “Take an interest in American Politics and Economics or Leave”?

If you love your car, would you make repairs to it? If your child is sick or injured would you try and make them better?

To me love or leave it only applies to those that would have us move further away from the principles this country was founded on.

59

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Fighting and dying to protect your country is one thing but to die for another one means that you’ve been tricked and victimised by evil men (like Churchill). It also means that you are altruistic.

Or perhaps it was in our natonal interests not to have Germany dominate Europe.

If you neighbor was being raped and murdered would you risk your life to help stop it?

Would you call the police?

Would you ignore it?

I think your hypothetical is a little off.

If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

I think yours is a little off!

It isn´t.

Do you have any arguments as to why it could be?

Speak English.

Make sense for once.

[/quote]

I wish you would.

60

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
If your neighbor is being raped, would you put a gun to your room mate’s head and make him go risk his life to help her?

I think yours is a little off!

Answer his question. [/quote]

His question is totaally ridiculous. No one is holding a gun to someones head making them a first responder.

Why don’t you guys answer my question as to how you would respond?