What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

[cliteastwood]

@tareload

I will give more thought to your hypothesis that hypogonadal men need their own “TCT” ref range.

When did I ever say that? Hint: I never did.

[cliteastwood]

@blshaw

I literally stated that so I’m not sure if this is a question or seeking reaffirmation?

Neither. I explained what I meant in the paragraph that I posted after.

@blshaw

Sorry I’m not sure what I’m supposed to clarify as to whether or not you’re lying. I don’t recall any discussion of truths. But to answer you, I haven’t seen your labs. Most scenarios I can think of you are indeed above range most of the week though. That’s just a fact as you performed a blood draw and are either outside of acceptable parameters by said lab company or not.

Like I said, the parameters set by the lab companies are for males who are not taking exogenous testosterone, correct?

So yes, for much of the week, I’m above the parameters that don’t apply to someone on exogenous testosterone.

Since I’m above the range that you follow, I either don’t need to be that high, OR I’m lying about having to be that high in order to have symptom resolution. That’s what you said, isn’t it?

[cliteastwood]

@swoops39

Don’t wanna jump in the middle of this discussion, but TRT also isn’t fixing an issue, it’s treating the symptoms, just like using opiates for pain. We’re not curing hypogonadism here.

Maybe you could expand on this. I’m not saying that exogenous testosterone “cures” hypogonadism per say. What I’m saying is that taking exogenous testosterone treats the symptoms of hypogonadism, it also treats hypogonadism itself. Opioids ONLY treat symptoms of another issue. Do you disagree?

@swoops39

I think the confusion here is with the term “feel” or “fixing symptoms” since those aren’t concrete terms. If my labwork looks “perfect” but I say I don’t “feel” any better then the solution isn’t to take more testosterone, it’s to look elsewhere.

To be clear, I was only talking about the total t/free t range. I’m not talking about any other bloodwork. And I agree that the solution isn’t necessarily to take MORE testosterone to alleviate symptoms. Assuming the issue is low t, because that’s specifically what I’ve been talking about, then more testosterone isn’t always the best. Like I said before, some guys need less to resolve symptoms.

[blshaw]

@cliteastwood

Like I said, the parameters set by the lab companies are for males who are not taking exogenous testosterone, correct?

I don’t know for sure but I would agree more than likely. Your sole opinion that this is not applicable though is just that… your seemingly sole opinion. Most don’t seem to agree with that.

@cliteastwood

I’m above the parameters that don’t apply to someone on exogenous testosterone.

Again, YOU say they don’t apply. It’s an odd statement in my book but your welcome to your opinion. It’s your body you take the lead on your own health issues.

@cliteastwood

I’m lying about having to be that high in order to have symptom resolution. That’s what you said, isn’t it?

Negative. Lying never came into the equation. I fully believe you get symptom relief at that dose. I also believe you don’t need that and that you’re masking other problems. It doesn’t make you a liar. For example I also don’t believe other members when they feel their 10mg dose adjustment on day two of a new protocol. They are not lying, it’s simply a placebo that they believe it so how is that a lie?

So to clarify, I don’t think you lie for what ever that is worth. I’m still unsure of why you desperately keep seeking my opinion on a flushed out issue.

[highpull]

@blshaw

For example I also don’t believe other members when they feel their 10mg dose adjustment on day two of a new protocol. They are not lying, it’s simply a placebo that they believe it so how is that a lie?

I have a couple of guys injecting daily that, after much research and internet surfing, believe they are much better with 8mg daily, rather than 9mg.

Sure, go ahead.

[swoops39]

@cliteastwood

What I’m saying is that taking exogenous testosterone treats the symptoms of hypogonadism, it also treats hypogonadism itself

Yes, I’d agree it’s treating the symptoms. But is it treating the hypogonadism? Treatment for HPTa disfunction would be to repair the HPTa, not bypass it, right? I’d argue a SERM is really treating hypogonadism. But I could be wrong . Maybe I’m being too narrow about it. In the end it’s not that big of a deal. We bypass the system and achieve normal operation, and that’s what we’re all looking for.

The range argument for TT/FT I just don’t understand. Like why do ppl get so dogmatic about the “normal range” (not saying you are or anyone here is). Why is 1000ng ok but 1200ng isn’t? I say run your TT/FT as high as you can while keeping lipids, CBC, CMP, BP, heart health, etc. all in good healthy levels. If those are all fine the ranges for TT shouldn’t matter

[kazuya_mishima1]

@cliteastwood

Maybe you could expand on this. I’m not saying that exogenous testosterone “cures” hypogonadism per say. What I’m saying is that taking exogenous testosterone treats the symptoms of hypogonadism, it also treats hypogonadism itself. Opioids ONLY treat symptoms of another issue. Do you disagree?

You both have a point. Neither cure the root cause is a good point. On the flipside there is plenty of alternatives to oxy and honestly plenty of times its reserved or should be for short term or for someone who is in hospice on their way out, but with low T alternatives like clomid and all else is crap rather than just getting to the source and replacing missing T with exogenous T.

[cliteastwood]

@swoops39

The range argument for TT/FT I just don’t understand. Like why do ppl get so dogmatic about the “normal range” (not saying you are or anyone here is). Why is 1000ng ok but 1200ng isn’t? I say run your TT/FT as high as you can while keeping lipids, CBC, CMP, BP, heart health, etc. all in good healthy levels. If those are all fine the ranges for TT shouldn’t matter

In my personal circumstance, I’m looking for the least possible dose that relieves my symptoms. But with what you said above, that makes good logical sense.

And I guess that was kinda my point when people here started crying “SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL” if someone’s TT hits 1200.

@swoops39

Yes, I’d agree it’s treating the symptoms. But is it treating the hypogonadism? Treatment for HPTa disfunction would be to repair the HPTa, not bypass it, right? I’d argue a SERM is really treating hypogonadism. But I could be wrong . Maybe I’m being too narrow about it. In the end it’s not that big of a deal. We bypass the system and achieve normal operation, and that’s what we’re all looking for.

Ok. I really don’t disagree with that.

[tfan866]

@readalot

“They” don’t really know. But this is why I urge caution and not to mess with thyroid and play this rT3 game. Guys with TSH at 1.5 and taking T3.

@tareload Readalot wrote this earlier in this thread back in Nov20. If you or him have ever given more info on this topic (rT3 game) please can you kindly show me where about. Its a topic I’m greatly interested in at the moment.

Thanks

[tareload]

Does My Thyroid Look OK?

What’s the rT3 target again @enackers? One (1) ng/dL as I remember? OP, take a look at this thread: And be careful what advice you take on here.

Does My Thyroid Look OK?

Does My Thyroid Look OK?

The quick and dirty summary from the 2nd link I posted above is probably the best 80/20 rule-approved paragraph (except for the pitch for dried urine testing :-)): I tracked my rT3 from 26 to 6 ng/dL over years and felt exactly zero difference and exactly zero difference in my resting basal temperature. The Bottom Line – Is the rT3 Test Useful? There appears to be little clinical justification for routine testing of rT3 for thyroid function assessment [14]. The main applications of an rT3 t…

Does My Thyroid Look OK?

My previous responses on this to you as a check if my story is changing .

There is some more good study material i will find for you.

Edit:

T3 Supplementation

Very nice review article covering finer points of HPTA/thyroid control theory. I am not dismissing use of T3 therapy in people who may really need it, just be very careful when you start adding in TRT, hCG, etc. Good luck discussing the details of Fig. 1 with your health care provider: Recent Advances in Thyroid Hormone Regulation: Toward a New Paradigm for Optimal Diagnosis and Treatment [image] Figure 1 Theoretical and observed relationships between thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) an…

Good review in this thread:

Thyroid Advice with TRT?

What rT3 would you be shooting for? There is absolutely, positively nothing wrong with your thyroid blood work There’s a reason Endos do this. I thought I was smarter than my body until I ran into issues. Unless you go and biopsy your individual tissues and determine you have a deiodinase issue, better to let your body work as designed. I worked my way up to 150 mcg/day of T4 and 50 mcg/day of T3 (split), scanned rT3 levels from 28 to 6. None of this changed my basal temperature upon wak…

Thyroid Advice with TRT?

Take this schematic to an Endo and ask him to review the various potential outcomes when a euthyroid patient does combination therapy or ends up going too high on the exogenous T3. I have tried my best to explain difficult concepts on here but this one I won’t expound on here (opportunity cost of my time) cause it’s complex and a black box I’d argue to everyone on this forum unless they’ve really studied feedback control loop of the HPTA. I guess the other option is for you to try it and repo…

[swoops39]

@cliteastwood

And I guess that was kinda my point when people here started crying “SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL” if someone’s TT hits 1200.

Yeah I think this is kinda old-school. Today we’d probably be better to look at FT levels anyway.

[tareload]

Hilarious the reference to TT “hitting” 1200 ng/dl. Yeah hitting the floor at 1200 not the ceiling. Kind of important to make the distinction.

[tareload]

Good faith

I’ve learned my lesson from prior experiences here in this thread. Reread your statements above. Remember this interaction started when you stated there was a problem with my graphs above and that the reference range I used was not applicable to men on TRT. Maybe 5 minutes in person at the whiteboard would sort this all out as I realize we are limited to the written word.

It is hard to debate with someone in this medium when they dont have short term memory and/or display Alzeihmer’s like symptoms. Have a good one.

[swoops39]

Ha yeah, at their lowest point during the week (or whatever injection cycle)

[tareload]

Looks like one of the links in the threads broke. Here is a revised link.

Reverse T3 or perverse T3? Still puzzling after 40 years

[tareload]

German engineering on your thyroid:

Recent Advances in Thyroid Hormone Regulation: Toward a New Paradigm for...

Of course reading stopthethyroidmadness so much more fun! Check out the other articles by Hoerrmann.

[tareload]

Functional and Symptomatic Individuality in the Response to Levothyroxine...

@tfan866

[tfan866]

@tareload

There is some more good study material i will find for you.

Thank you for taking the time to find those links for me, I had a good evening reading them all. Now I am wizened up to these “functional medicine” doctors and rT3.

[tareload]

Glad you read and enjoyed them. The control loop theory stuff on HPThyroidA is one topic i spend a lot of time reading about when i can. Pretty amazing how humans have evolved.

Finding old links for some material for banned people is rather difficult as the search function wont filter based on user name for someone who is suspended. Bummer but readalot should have thought of that before getting the hammer

[tfan866]

@tareload

Bummer but readalot should have thought of that before getting the hammer

I sure hope tareload will record the load before hitting the tare button