What is Racism?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Ha ha ha! Yeah good one! I’ve heard it before many times and it just keeps getting funnier. I suppose you’ll mention Guns, Germs and Steel next.[/quote]

They are used to detect mental problems, that’s it. It can be used somewhat to compare people of fairly uniform background. Comparing across cultures is inaccurate because the tests are based on the supposed culture of the person being tested. A person in Japan and a person in the US would by need take entirely different tests. IQ is not really a measure of intelligence and even then what is measured is a relative measurement. Test design is such a huge part of the results the average score on the test between vastly different parts of the world is more or less, meaningless. [/quote]

When I said “I’ve heard it all” I was being serious. I have heard everything you are saying here many times before. What I’m interested in, is have you heard people with an opposing opinion? I’m pretty sure you haven’t because for one thing it’s an esoteric science that’s highly politically charged. You’ll have trouble finding the opposing sources even though the work I’m referring to is from leading scholars. Amren is a great site for academics and people interested in serious study on the subject because for years they have collected all the science from both sides.

But to be honest, as I said before I’m not interested in treading water here for pages on end. You don’t accept what I’m saying. You are proffering the standard pseudoscientific garbage and explaining it to me as if I’ve never heard it before. Believe me, I’ve heard it all before. Everything you have to say. Guns, Germs and Steel? Heard it all. Let’s agree to disagree.[/quote]

I don’t even get your “guns, germs and steel” thing.
Actually a large portion of my perspective on IQ tests comes from my mother who teaches special needs children. Time and again she gets kids with low IQs where, because of family background, were just given a wrong test and are perfectly capable.

102

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Ha ha ha! Yeah good one! I’ve heard it before many times and it just keeps getting funnier. I suppose you’ll mention Guns, Germs and Steel next.[/quote]

They are used to detect mental problems, that’s it. It can be used somewhat to compare people of fairly uniform background. Comparing across cultures is inaccurate because the tests are based on the supposed culture of the person being tested. A person in Japan and a person in the US would by need take entirely different tests. IQ is not really a measure of intelligence and even then what is measured is a relative measurement. Test design is such a huge part of the results the average score on the test between vastly different parts of the world is more or less, meaningless. [/quote]

Are you saying asians are not smarter than whites who are not smarter than blacks? Throw away the iq test and use the word smart instead. Ok?[/quote]

I’m saying that IQ scores aren’t good evidence to support the notion. [/quote]

It’s a perfect measure of “cognitive function, ability and memory” and has nothing to do with “culture”. Two plus two equals four in Japan just as here and how fast and accurately someone can make such calculations is an objective measure of their cognitive function. There is no other “culturally appropriate” way of measuring that. I remember one academic I read on this subject asked, why hasn’t a “culturally appropriate” test been developed for other cultures? Not possible? Then what magic kind of intelligence or cognitive ability do they have that can’t be measured? These are rhetorical questions. Let’s agree to disagree.

103

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
So how is it that I’m both sane and stupid, clear-headed yet ignorant?
[/quote]

Because it’s entirely possible for decent people to make bad decisions based on incomplete information and prejudice.

In this situation, the consequences of you being wrong and crossing the street for no reason -that the young men might have their feelings hurt- aren’t as dire as the consequences of not crossing the street if they do turn out to follow stereotype.

So, maybe “irrational” isn’t the word I was looking for, since we’ve kind of established that it’s coming from the caveman part of your brain and that it would have to be irrational. I should have said it’s understandable, because sometimes a gut feeling is all we have to go on, even if it’s wrong. Still, it’s based off of one single premise: that black men are more inherently prone to unprovoked violence against strangers, and that it’s in your best interest to get away. Is that fair to say? Based on your hypothetical question, I’m assuming -and correct me if I’m wrong, please, I’m not trying to insinuate anything- that the only thing we know about these men is that they’re black, and that you wouldn’t cross the street if a similarly-dressed and mannered group of young white men was approaching you.

So is that true? Do you, in the light of day and free to think on the subject as you wish, think that black men are inherently more violent and prone to assaulting unarmed strangers than white men? Is this a rational belief that you should hold onto?

Does this way of thinking do more good than harm?

Can’t we all just get along? Isn’t love the answer? Mush mush, mushity-mush?
[/quote]

This sounds nice and I am not criticizing it. But,yes,black men in America have shown themselves to be more violent then white men. I don’t recommend trying to refute my statement with “white racism puts more black people in jail”,because,even if there is some truth in it,its not enough to make up for all the black men in jail

104

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Ha ha ha! Yeah good one! I’ve heard it before many times and it just keeps getting funnier. I suppose you’ll mention Guns, Germs and Steel next.[/quote]

They are used to detect mental problems, that’s it. It can be used somewhat to compare people of fairly uniform background. Comparing across cultures is inaccurate because the tests are based on the supposed culture of the person being tested. A person in Japan and a person in the US would by need take entirely different tests. IQ is not really a measure of intelligence and even then what is measured is a relative measurement. Test design is such a huge part of the results the average score on the test between vastly different parts of the world is more or less, meaningless. [/quote]

When I said “I’ve heard it all” I was being serious. I have heard everything you are saying here many times before. What I’m interested in, is have you heard people with an opposing opinion? I’m pretty sure you haven’t because for one thing it’s an esoteric science that’s highly politically charged. You’ll have trouble finding the opposing sources even though the work I’m referring to is from leading scholars. Amren is a great site for academics and people interested in serious study on the subject because for years they have collected all the science from both sides.

But to be honest, as I said before I’m not interested in treading water here for pages on end. You don’t accept what I’m saying. You are proffering the standard pseudoscientific garbage and explaining it to me as if I’ve never heard it before. Believe me, I’ve heard it all before. Everything you have to say. Guns, Germs and Steel? Heard it all. Let’s agree to disagree.[/quote]

I don’t even get your “guns, germs and steel” thing.
Actually a large portion of my perspective on IQ tests comes from my mother who teaches special needs children. Time and again she gets kids with low IQs where, because of family background, were just given a wrong test and are perfectly capable.
[/quote]

its a book by a well known writer named Jared Diamond,about the rise and fall of cultures,who they think is a nut job. Confusion

105

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

You are wrong, and why I made the point about your bias that I did.

No other race was brought into question, and factors outside of race left out on purpose. You took those omissions of detail to make the assumption/conclusion that he was in fact racist. I think you’re projecting a little here, maybe not.

This right here is where you start to fly off the track. The Good Doctor was making a point about his area, and the use of statistics (right or wrong) and whether an action was justified. You… Took it to racism town.

[/quote]

I mean… isn’t it? Racist, I mean? Part of the discussion here is that there’s a sub-rational response to seeing someone of a different group and thinking “bad”. I even admitted to having the same knee-jerk response. We’re all a little bit racist, at least subconsciously. He was making the argument that he was going to act based on the race of those young men, and the statistics he associated with people who looked like them.

It’s what I would call “a little bit racist”. Minor, yes, but still a symptom of a larger societal issue: that we think black people are just naturally more violent than white people. I don’t think Dr. Pangloss is a racist in his day-to-day life (not based on what I’ve seen, anyway), but that doesn’t mean he -or anyone else- is incapable of racist acts, or that that mode of thinking isn’t harmful.

Fair?

106

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Ha ha ha! Yeah good one! I’ve heard it before many times and it just keeps getting funnier. I suppose you’ll mention Guns, Germs and Steel next.[/quote]

They are used to detect mental problems, that’s it. It can be used somewhat to compare people of fairly uniform background. Comparing across cultures is inaccurate because the tests are based on the supposed culture of the person being tested. A person in Japan and a person in the US would by need take entirely different tests. IQ is not really a measure of intelligence and even then what is measured is a relative measurement. Test design is such a huge part of the results the average score on the test between vastly different parts of the world is more or less, meaningless. [/quote]

Are you saying asians are not smarter than whites who are not smarter than blacks? Throw away the iq test and use the word smart instead. Ok?[/quote]

I’m saying that IQ scores aren’t good evidence to support the notion. [/quote]

It’s a perfect measure of “cognitive function, ability and memory” and has nothing to do with “culture”. Two plus two equals four in Japan just as here and how fast and accurately someone can make such calculations is an objective measure of their cognitive function. There is no other “culturally appropriate” way of measuring that. I remember one academic I read on this subject asked, why hasn’t a “culturally appropriate” test been developed for other cultures? Not possible? Then what magic kind of intelligence or cognitive ability do they have that can’t be measured? These are rhetorical questions. Let’s agree to disagree.[/quote]

the real test for intelligence is called “emotional iq”. Lol(joking). Read some crap about it a few years ago

107

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

You are wrong, and why I made the point about your bias that I did.

No other race was brought into question, and factors outside of race left out on purpose. You took those omissions of detail to make the assumption/conclusion that he was in fact racist. I think you’re projecting a little here, maybe not.

This right here is where you start to fly off the track. The Good Doctor was making a point about his area, and the use of statistics (right or wrong) and whether an action was justified. You… Took it to racism town.

[/quote]

I mean… isn’t it? Racist, I mean? Part of the discussion here is that there’s a sub-rational response to seeing someone of a different group and thinking “bad”. I even admitted to having the same knee-jerk response. We’re all a little bit racist, at least subconsciously. He was making the argument that he was going to act based on the race of those young men, and the statistics he associated with people who looked like them.

It’s what I would call “a little bit racist”. Minor, yes, but still a symptom of a larger societal issue: that we think black people are just naturally more violent than white people. I don’t think Dr. Pangloss is a racist in his day-to-day life (not based on what I’ve seen, anyway), but that doesn’t mean he -or anyone else- is incapable of racist acts, or that that mode of thinking isn’t harmful.

Fair?
[/quote]

Fair? Yes,I think so. Question is,should we try to be any different than this and if so,why? My answer is no,we shouldnt. Its fine :slight_smile:

109

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Ha ha ha! Yeah good one! I’ve heard it before many times and it just keeps getting funnier. I suppose you’ll mention Guns, Germs and Steel next.[/quote]

They are used to detect mental problems, that’s it. It can be used somewhat to compare people of fairly uniform background. Comparing across cultures is inaccurate because the tests are based on the supposed culture of the person being tested. A person in Japan and a person in the US would by need take entirely different tests. IQ is not really a measure of intelligence and even then what is measured is a relative measurement. Test design is such a huge part of the results the average score on the test between vastly different parts of the world is more or less, meaningless. [/quote]

Are you saying asians are not smarter than whites who are not smarter than blacks? Throw away the iq test and use the word smart instead. Ok?[/quote]

I’m saying that IQ scores aren’t good evidence to support the notion. [/quote]

It’s a perfect measure of “cognitive function, ability and memory” and has nothing to do with “culture”. Two plus two equals four in Japan just as here and how fast and accurately someone can make such calculations is an objective measure of their cognitive function. There is no other “culturally appropriate” way of measuring that. I remember one academic I read on this subject asked, why hasn’t a “culturally appropriate” test been developed for other cultures? Not possible? Then what magic kind of intelligence or cognitive ability do they have that can’t be measured? These are rhetorical questions. Let’s agree to disagree.[/quote]

LOL. Perfect? Now I’m almost inclined to believe you are trolling.

A culture may train those things differently. One culture may make children memorize small sum tables. Another culture may force children to do all math the long way on paper. A third might allow calculators for all simple math. A forth may specialize child education early on so some of their children are reading and studying advanced literature and don’t receive math education. A fifth may be poor 3rd world farmers that have never been to school and doesn’t know what addition is. A person of identical raw material in each of those situations would score differently on that 2+2 question.

Additionally, since 2+2 is 4 for everyone on the planet (technically I disagree with this statement because it depends on what the math convention is) a 6 month old has an IQ of 0 and a 1 year old light-years ahead of all his peers but having to do the sum on his fingers mentally retarded.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

For direct example. The Japanese do far better memorizing numerical strings. BUT their number language is simpler and easier to remember. So memorizing 5469321 in English and in Japanese requires memorizing different numbers of syllables and types of sounds. And beyond that, even things like the distinctness of the words makes a difference in processing. If the words six and seven sound closer together than six and seven in Japanese, remembering which was used in a number string can be decisively harder in English.

110

Just to get back to the OP; I find a useful way of determining “racism” is if someone holds beliefs that entail "biological determinism. Essentially, biological determinists see race as the only determining factor in things like employment levels, crime etc. This mindset entails legislation that specifically targets certain races because they believe that race is the only determining factor in these things.

And I should have guessed that this would devolve and become about me. I didn’t realise I was so important. I thought we could discuss the subject as opposed to guessing about my secret thoughts and so on. But no, I am not a biological determinist. Biology is only one factor that influences these things. I would never support legislation that specifically targets any race - ie, blacks can’t do this or Jews must do that or whatever. I like to see people transcend racial stereotypes. That’s why I love black conservatives.

111

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

And I should have guessed that this would devolve and become about me. I didn’t realise I was so important. I thought we could discuss the subject as opposed to guessing about my secret thoughts and so on…[/quote]

Funny, that’s what you’ve been doing to me in this thread.

112

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]confusion wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Ha ha ha! Yeah good one! I’ve heard it before many times and it just keeps getting funnier. I suppose you’ll mention Guns, Germs and Steel next.[/quote]

They are used to detect mental problems, that’s it. It can be used somewhat to compare people of fairly uniform background. Comparing across cultures is inaccurate because the tests are based on the supposed culture of the person being tested. A person in Japan and a person in the US would by need take entirely different tests. IQ is not really a measure of intelligence and even then what is measured is a relative measurement. Test design is such a huge part of the results the average score on the test between vastly different parts of the world is more or less, meaningless. [/quote]

Are you saying asians are not smarter than whites who are not smarter than blacks? Throw away the iq test and use the word smart instead. Ok?[/quote]

I’m saying that IQ scores aren’t good evidence to support the notion. [/quote]

It’s a perfect measure of “cognitive function, ability and memory” and has nothing to do with “culture”. Two plus two equals four in Japan just as here and how fast and accurately someone can make such calculations is an objective measure of their cognitive function. There is no other “culturally appropriate” way of measuring that. I remember one academic I read on this subject asked, why hasn’t a “culturally appropriate” test been developed for other cultures? Not possible? Then what magic kind of intelligence or cognitive ability do they have that can’t be measured? These are rhetorical questions. Let’s agree to disagree.[/quote]

LOL. Perfect? Now I’m almost inclined to believe you are trolling.

A culture may train those things differently. One culture may make children memorize small sum tables. Another culture may force children to do all math the long way on paper. A third might allow calculators for all simple math. A forth may specialize child education early on so some of their children are reading and studying advanced literature and don’t receive math education. A fifth may be poor 3rd world farmers that have never been to school and doesn’t know what addition is. A person of identical raw material in each of those situations would score differently on that 2+2 question.

Additionally, since 2+2 is 4 for everyone on the planet (technically I disagree with this statement because it depends on what the math convention is) a 6 month old has an IQ of 0 and a 1 year old light-years ahead of all his peers but having to do the sum on his fingers mentally retarded.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

For direct example. The Japanese do far better memorizing numerical strings. BUT their number language is simpler and easier to remember. So memorizing 5469321 in English and in Japanese requires memorizing different numbers of syllables and types of sounds. And beyond that, even things like the distinctness of the words makes a difference in processing. If the words six and seven sound closer together than six and seven in Japanese, remembering which was used in a number string can be decisively harder in English.
[/quote]

Good post. The first sentence in your second paragraph reminds me of Dostoyevski’s underground man. SM can explain what I mean by that :slight_smile:

113

Hint:It’s a pretty good argument against free will

114

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
For direct example. The Japanese do far better memorizing numerical strings. BUT their number language is simpler and easier to remember. So memorizing 5469321 in English and in Japanese requires memorizing different numbers of syllables and types of sounds. And beyond that, even things like the distinctness of the words makes a difference in processing. If the words six and seven sound closer together than six and seven in Japanese, remembering which was used in a number string can be decisively harder in English.
[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean.

In Japanese, the number you gave as an example, if recited as a string of integers, would be go shi roku kyu san ni ichi. Nine syllables, or eleven, if you count syllables as the Japanese do. The same string of integers may be pronounced in English with seven syllables.

Plus the numbers 4 (shi) and 7 (shichi) seem just as similar (perhaps even more so) as “six” and “seven”, which have nothing in common but their initial consonant sound.

115

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
So what do you think “racism” is? How would you define it?[/quote]

I believe race is a false concept. Like “species” there is no clear biological delineation except where taxonomists can come to agreement.

Race is usually defined by physical trait. Racism is the idea that shared physical traits have some inherent importance to individual given ability.

Racism is one of those ideas that fall under the greater concept of “collectivism” which includes political-economic classism, nationalism, ethnicity, etc.

editied

116

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

I believe race is a false concept.[/quote]

Of course you do LIFTIPANTS. The fact that you believe this bolsters my argument. Thanks for your help.

117

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
For direct example. The Japanese do far better memorizing numerical strings. BUT their number language is simpler and easier to remember. So memorizing 5469321 in English and in Japanese requires memorizing different numbers of syllables and types of sounds. And beyond that, even things like the distinctness of the words makes a difference in processing. If the words six and seven sound closer together than six and seven in Japanese, remembering which was used in a number string can be decisively harder in English.
[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean.

In Japanese, the number you gave as an example, if recited as a string of integers, would be go shi roku kyu san ni ichi. Nine syllables, or eleven, if you count syllables as the Japanese do. The same string of integers may be pronounced in English with seven syllables.

Plus the numbers 4 (shi) and 7 (shichi) seem just as similar (perhaps even more so) as “six” and “seven”, which have nothing in common but their initial consonant sound.[/quote]

It is just an example. And even if there are similar words in the Japanese language, they are on different numbers. If you ask everyone to remember the string 689867621 the English guy has a bunch 6 and 7s to distinguish, but the Japanese guy has no 4-7 combo to remember. Point is though, it’s not possible to make everything the same.

118

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
For direct example. The Japanese do far better memorizing numerical strings. BUT their number language is simpler and easier to remember. So memorizing 5469321 in English and in Japanese requires memorizing different numbers of syllables and types of sounds. And beyond that, even things like the distinctness of the words makes a difference in processing. If the words six and seven sound closer together than six and seven in Japanese, remembering which was used in a number string can be decisively harder in English.
[/quote]

I’m not sure what you mean.

In Japanese, the number you gave as an example, if recited as a string of integers, would be go shi roku kyu san ni ichi. Nine syllables, or eleven, if you count syllables as the Japanese do. The same string of integers may be pronounced in English with seven syllables.

Plus the numbers 4 (shi) and 7 (shichi) seem just as similar (perhaps even more so) as “six” and “seven”, which have nothing in common but their initial consonant sound.[/quote]

It is just an example. And even if there are similar words in the Japanese language, they are on different numbers. If you ask everyone to remember the string 689867621 the English guy has a bunch 6 and 7s to distinguish, but the Japanese guy has no 4-7 combo to remember. Point is though, it’s not possible to make everything the same.[/quote]

You made it up. And as it’s a made up example it has no meaning because it might be easier in English rather than harder for all you know.

119

[quote]Ironskape wrote:

I mean… isn’t it? Racist, I mean? Part of the discussion here is that there’s a sub-rational response to seeing someone of a different group and thinking “bad”. I even admitted to having the same knee-jerk response. We’re all a little bit racist, at least subconsciously. He was making the argument that he was going to act based on the race of those young men, and the statistics he associated with people who looked like them.[/quote]

Is it racist? Not necessarily. Can it be? Absolutely. If you change the fact pattern to say… East Horse Shoe Montana rather than Chicago, you start dipping more into the “yeah it’s racist” arena. Or if he described them as Wall Street Bankers and was in NYC…

But given the facts presented, it isn’t automatically even slightly racist. Discriminatory? Sure, but as has been said, discriminatory isn’t always a bad thing.

[quote] but still a symptom of a larger societal issue: that we think black people are just naturally more violent than white people.

Fair?
[/quote]

The part I carved out isn’t fair, no.

If he is thinking what you typed, yeah that is racist. If he is thinking: “I’m in Chicago, these dudes look shady as hell (yes I’m introducing more facts than presented), and statistics say they might want to steal my watch and wallet…” Then no, that isn’t racist. It’s reacting to a reality that in that city, the demographics pan out in a particular direction.

120

Moreover, the number 5,469,321 in Japanese would be go hyaku yonju roku man kyu sen sambyaku niju ichi, which is precisely the same number of syllables as “five million four hundred sixty-nine thousand three hundred twenty-one”, but is also more complicated in its conceptual language. Like Korean, Mandarin and all other languages burdened by the Chinese ideography, Japanese expresses large numbers in lumps of ten-thousands, rather than thousands as we do. Ergo the number above, if directly translated from Japanese, would be "five hundred forty-six ten-thousand, nine thousand, three hundred twenty-one. And it would take the Japanese speaker a few seconds before answering, because he would first have to count the number of decimal places in an Arabic numeral in order to translate it in his mind into a Chinese one.