Hey you guys get off my back.
Ive already pledged Biden 2020.
Trump didn’t cause the pandemic, but he’s responsible for ignoring the threat. He’s still more worried about his ratings and the optics of how he’ll spin his inaction for the GOP base.
You could make the case that people who were telling him to ignore Covid-19 (see below) are actually responsible, but then you’re opening the theological discussion of the illusion of Trump’s free will in relation to Fox News.
Yes they do. It’s just that you’re misleadingly comparing EU vs. USA numbers on different points in the time series, hence approximately similar points on different parts of the curve.
Ben - you throw philosophy 101 terms at me and then come up with this hypothetical?
What metric other than the closest socio/economic unit (EU) can the US compare to?
The WHO was either wrong or corrupt. Our own health models and leaders were wrong and severly overstated. Our Congress went on multi week break, while we contemplated the worst disaster in our history (before we learned more).
But probably Trump failed us? Even though I realize no one wrote that exact sentence.
please clarify, as i took numbers as of yesterday.
not a challenge, i am sincerely interested
I don’t think anyone has said Trump is the only one who made mistakes. And I don’t think anyone on here has said he is single handedly to blame. I believe both of those were made up. It was inevitable that we screwed up many parts of this. And by we I mean essentially everyone. I down played it in the other thread in the beginning myself.
As for the numbers being on his side that confuses me. Have you looked at our numbers in comparison to other countries? We’re kicking everyone’s ass in a way we don’t want to be kicking it.
What aspects (if any) do you think Trump has failed on this?
US is roughly two weeks behind (most of) Europe on the contagion curve. So in order to compare absolute numbers you have to compare US numbers from today to Europe’s from 14-15 days ago.
- Failure to mobilize testing of entire population instead of just throwing money to couples making 100 K a year
- Not stopping travel from Europe as soon as Asia
- Flipping and flopping like a damn fool about re opening economy while not doing my first item
I don’t like that I always appear to defend him, when in fact, I think he does some idiotic moves.
But my default explanation for every ill is not Trump (I know, I know - no one said that exact statement). He is not some despotic ruler that holds life and death in his hands, we have a piss poor legislative body more interested in power than in actual governance, there are bad actors across the globe looking to bring down the US and therefore dont ever work with us. People are self-serving to the detriment of others.
1 Like
You are saying the numbers don’t support a massive failure. I am saying we don’t know what numbers would support a claim of a massive failure.
The EU doesn’t seem like a fair comparison as they are a few weeks ahead of us, and have more areas that are densely populated.
I am also saying that we can’t make a good judgment on how well Trump does by comparing to other leaders. Is it possible that most of them failed in their response?
Agree. Trump also said anyone who wants a test can get a test in early March.
And for some reason to just certain European countries and not all. We stopped travel to European countries some with less Covid cases than we allowed.
If it was limited to that I’d be happy. He completely reverses course so often on so many things it’s almost impossible to keep up with. All politicians have flip flopped before. Trump’s not special in that regard. But he will flip flop within a matter of days and then deny he took the first position if someone asks him what changed.
I agree with all this. But I think he holds the most important role in the nation. The words he uses are important and the way he acts is important. And to me it would be hard to have someone as careless about those two things as he is.
His speeches in regards to governors has been pure lunacy. “We’re working together, wait I’m the only one who decides things not them, we’re working together, LIBERATE.” To me it’s maniac behavior the way he skyrockets from position to position and contradicts himself so often. I don’t know how people can take anything he says seriously at this point.
I believe I’ve often said that I can certainly see people not supporting Biden. I don’t think he’s a candidate that excites many and he has some of the very same flaws found in Trump just at a lower level. What I can’t understand is that people would want someone like Trump at this point. I’m not trying to flame it just seems crazy to me. Maybe it’s as simple as Republicans are mostly looking for someone who trolls liberals, but it is hard for me to really believe that.
Oh no, it isn’t his single-handedly. I said somewhere no president could have prevented the arrival of the virus. And China is absolutely to blame for it’s handling of it.
But Trump is to blame as well. His handling has been a disaster. He has railed on China for four years, saying China is untrustworthy - ok, well, start planning around that untrustworthiness as soon as you hear from US intelligence sources we may be in danger. Trump failed to follow his own anti-China instincts.
Then, after that, it’s been the worst adminstrative handling of a disaster in U.S. history. The dumb bureaucracy has been a problem, but it’s Trump’s dumb bureaucracy that he can override with emergency powers. Instead, his lazy ass couldn’t get motivated to do much of anything. He didn’t focus, he didnt direct, he didn’t execute.
And, in a world with people seeking calm and a plan, every day is some new shit show of erratic statements, callbacks, ludicrous statements, threats, and showboating.
2 Likes
I had a post that said press conferences on these things are ridiculously easy. All anyone wants is calm and direct information. A simple we’re all in this together and we will overcome this.
Trump would have done well to look at the way some of his predecessors handled crises. GWB wasn’t famous for his speaking abilities, but the way he spoke to the nation about 9/11 was very admirable and well done. The crisis itself is hard. The speaking about it and what tone to take/things to say isn’t.
Wait, @thunderbolt23…
Do you have any data to back that up?
Worth viewing for the difference in messaging…
For the people that can stand Obama there’s this:
Isn’t it weird how everyone’s become accustomed to the communication level of the current POTUS and how it’s jarring to see him compared to his predecessors?
1 Like
@loppar Ahh changed my goalposts of deaths to cases… attached is an interactive site you can appreciate for data.
When I look at your graph (and I appreciate your mention of where each region is on timeline, even though EU and US reported initial case on 1/21/2020), the curve looks the same for number of cases for several weeks other than the (amplitude?) of the EU. I can’t say how the curve similarity strikes as proving the US should be plotted 2 weeks behind EU.
@mnben87 The superiority of both the socialized healthcare plus superior leadership of EU should have balanced out more urban? See graph explanation to loppar also.
@H_factor @thunderbolt23 Of course I don’t agree fully with all of either of your replies, thanks for your civil answers. And looking at Congress - term limits…
Gotta suit up for some shopping for parents, you guys stay safe.
Interesting graph. We were much flatter initially. The slope (rate of deaths) is lower than the EU which is good.
The point I have been trying to make is that the results can be independent of the leader. Someone can go about solving a problem in all the wrong ways and by accident come to the correct answer.
Another point is that I am not grading world leaders on a curve. It is possible for them all to get As, or Fs, or any other distribution of performances.
Fair enough, but serious question - do you think Trump has done a good job on this?
It’s better to look at the number of cases that deaths, because deaths may lag significantly as people die after spending a week or more on the ventilator.
Universal, not “socialized”
No, they fucked up massively. But they fucked up 2 weeks before US started seeing exponential growth in cases, as can be seen here:
At that time Trump was insinuating in a tweet that the flu was more dangerous.
Any comment on the Bush/Obama statements.
I think the title of this thread should probably be changed from a question to “What isn’t leadership”, unless anyone want to start talking leadership.
If we are going to talk about leadership, let’s get to it. There are different leadership qualities we look for, depending on the job. This remains true for heads of state. The job will be different, depending on the time, people, place and every other innumerable variable.
What you want in a leader will be especially shaped by your political goals.
I brought up Ghengis Khan earlier in this thread, because I think it is helpful to consider extreme examples. He is one of history’s great leaders with one of history’s most extreme sets of policies. This is beyond dispute. He led a nomadic steppe tribal society from the hardest of places, from the harshest of existences into prosperity the likes of which they never could have imagined just a few decades prior. He had history’s most mobile army that was perfectly content to live on mare’s milk mixed with mare’s blood. Tens of millions were slaughtered by this warrior-king and his people, but these were all necessary killings that were either justified revenge or sensible acts of preemptive violence for future peace.
It’s all baked into the same cake, and the greatest Mongol leader is still on the Mongol money today. I don’t think many Mongolians would want to adopt his foreign policy today, but I don’t think many people would consider their more socially enlightened, less murderous leaders of today “better leaders.”
21st Century America has different priorities than 13th century Mongolia, and I don’t think continental conquest is high on anyone’s list in the USA.
So, what is?
Some people might want a president who looks good on TV. A charming and well-spoken person who stays on-script, like Obama.
Some people may want a person with a particular set of policy positions, like Bernie Sanders.
Some people may view any living person not in prison as an upgrade over Trump, and call it good leadership.
Some may see Trump as an infallible messiah, the way a lot of the posters here seem to believe nearly everyone who voted for him does. The Trumpkins, they’re called.
Some people might even consider the good flavors baked into Trump’s leadership cake to outweigh the bad flavors. Not everyone likes chocolate and chili, for instance. I do. Some people may like cake with fish flavoring. I don’t. To each their own, I suppose, but you get to a point where most people agree that the combination of flavors isn’t very good at all.
Some, maybe even most, just want prosperity and peace.
If I think about what I want in a good leader, it is someone who is committed to conservative principles, but not completely uncompromising. I believe conservative principles keep the engine of prosperity running at its best overall, which also helps with shaping a more peaceful, kind and enjoyable world to be a part of.
The pandemic is a perfect example of when compromising on conservative principles can be a good and necessary idea. Very few conservatives were against a stimulus bill in response to a voluntary request to stop business that was complied with. Something had to be done, and the clock was ticking.
I also think it is important to check off some of the boxes we’d call “good leadership” in most modern situations, whether it is in the workplace, on an athletic field or in the houses of government.
That’s why I’m still high on Dan Crenshaw. I’ve not read everything he’s written, nor heard every word he’s spoken, but I like what I see. He’s willing to go on a show like The View and defend his conservative ideas in a way that’s both polite and firm. He does a good job at calling out dishonest tactics and bad-faith behavior from both media and politicians without resorting to petty behavior like Trump. I seem to agree on most of his policy positions, but definitely not all of them (legal MJ, being one I specifically recall).
I liked Tulsi Gabbard quite a bit, but now we have to question whether she is ready to lead the Democratic party to their policy goals, if anyone can even manage to pin those down for more than a month or two at a time. I think she checks almost all of the “general leadership” boxes that Crenshaw does. Both are actual leaders in the military, with distinguished careers leading our soldiers. Both are articulate, polite, but not afraid of disagreement. Both seem to be genuine in their motivations for public service and their commitment to the public good.
Gabbard has the problem of only being viewed this way by conservatives, given that she was at the very bottom of the barrel in the primary race. She’s obviously not well-positioned to lead anyone where they want to be led, even though she shows more true leadership qualities than anyone I can think of in the Democratic field of 2019-2020.
I think Crenshaw is pretty easy to pin down as a Conservative/Republican leader today. I’m sure I wouldn’t be the only one to register as Republican for the first time to vote in a primary if he runs.
I can’t really say what a Democratic leader looks like today. I guess it’s Hillary getting loaded into ambulances and otherwise behaving like a shady Clinton. Biden may not know where he is at, why he’s there or how The Hardy Boys are going to fix this one, but he’ll surely be better at whatever he does than Trump has been.
This election is shaping up into one of the biggest jokes in American history, but there will be an election after that where I think (hope) the adults will come out in force. Any predictions as to what a Democratic leader might look like in 2024?
2 Likes
I want someone smarter than myself, with charisma, a ton of motivation, and goals that align with my own. This person should be an excellent communicator, and be someone with strong morals yet also have a logical/rational streak. They shouldn’t be intimidated easily, and should only let emotion into play when they plan to harness it to achieve their goal.
Basically, I want a smarter tim tebow as my leader…just turn the religion down a few notches haha.
1 Like
