[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
…and tonight the part of Ryan P McCarty will be played by Sloth.[/quote]
Nope. Nowhere have I suggested that the ownership of the means of production be owned by everyone (the state). Of course, having a government that doesn’t allow profiteers to get with away poisoning our water, or our air, makes one a socialist in the mind of the anarchist. Heck, the state existing to punish murder is Marxism! This is why we’re safe from anarcho-capitalists, thankfully.
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
All you can “recognize” that you treat people like chattle which will forever prevent them from developing their moral muscles on their own.
And then, people, just like you, will proclaim that force is necessary because people will not do on their own what is right.
First you rob free people of the competence to deal with this shit on their own and then you proclaim that they need your help to deal with it and sooner or later they really do.
You are a closet liberal.
[/quote]
Exactly. Sloth keeps saying that libertarianism and classical liberalism is what leads to a huge state. Meanwhile in the most traditionally “conservative” nation in history (America), we have developed one of the largest states. Ironic, really. According to Sloth, conservatism has failed miserably to uphold its promise. What does he expect, then, when people turn to other solutions to our problems?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[/quote]
interesting line of reasoning - like my daddy used to say “locks are for honest people” . . .
[quote]Dabba wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
All you can “recognize” that you treat people like chattle which will forever prevent them from developing their moral muscles on their own.
And then, people, just like you, will proclaim that force is necessary because people will not do on their own what is right.
First you rob free people of the competence to deal with this shit on their own and then you proclaim that they need your help to deal with it and sooner or later they really do.
You are a closet liberal.
[/quote]
Exactly. Sloth keeps saying that libertarianism and classical liberalism is what leads to a huge state. Meanwhile in the most traditionally “conservative” nation in history…[/quote]
Well, I just looked at the out-of-wedlock birth and divorce rates…Conservative? No, that’s liberalism. I’ve looked at the debt-ridden materialistic culture around me. Conservatism? Nope. And nowhere have I said that Conservatism is impervious. It’s just that libertarianism/liberalism is the surer route to a powerful central authority.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[/quote]
Whu?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[/quote]
Whu?[/quote]
If you do not steal because I might whip you for it you have not learned not to steal, you havbe learned to fear my rod.
All I have accomplished then is to condition you to obey everyone else with a whip.
This approach does not create a moral people, it breeds slaves.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[/quote]
interesting line of reasoning - like my daddy used to say “locks are for honest people” . . .[/quote]
They are, because criminals have bolt cutters.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[/quote]
interesting line of reasoning - like my daddy used to say “locks are for honest people” . . .[/quote]
They are, because criminals have bolt cutters.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
No you cannot.
[/quote]
Yes, yes I can. Despite a law saying that I can’t murder, I recognize the virtue in not committing murder. Or, do you argue that to combat murder, murder must be legal?[/quote]
No, my argument is that someone who does not murder because you force him to not murder does not act virtuous, he has simly learned to obey you.
This is not a virtue, obedience is a vice, the most dangerous and most common of all.
You wish to have more of it and yet it begets all others.
[/quote]
interesting line of reasoning - like my daddy used to say “locks are for honest people” . . .[/quote]
They are, because criminals have bolt cutters.
[quote]orion wrote:
[If you do not steal because I might whip you for it you have not learned not to steal, you havbe learned to fear my rod.
All I have accomplished then is to condition you to obey everyone else with a whip.
This approach does not create a moral people, it breeds slaves.
[/quote]
Um, great. They obey and don’t steal. Your point? Oh, let me take a guess. If thieves weren’t punished for stealing, they’d learn that stealing was wrong…
So legalize theft, to maximize the self-realization that stealing is wrong!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[If you do not steal because I might whip you for it you have not learned not to steal, you havbe learned to fear my rod.
All I have accomplished then is to condition you to obey everyone else with a whip.
This approach does not create a moral people, it breeds slaves.
[/quote]
Um, great. They obey and don’t steal. Your point? Oh, let me take a guess. If thieves weren’t punished for stealing, they’d learn that stealing was wrong…
So legalize theft, to maximize the self-realization that stealing is wrong![/quote]
Excuse me, was it not you that proclaimed that the US constitution needs a moral people to work?
And yet you want to replace it with a servile people?
They might act the same, but they will not be what is necessary to build what you envision.
So, you want to legalize murder?
“Freedom’s just another word for nothin else to lose”
/thread
[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, you want to legalize murder?[/quote]
No, but drugs and prostitution and gambling and prading on main street on saturday without a handkerchief, you puritan you.
Because you do not learn that fire is hot without burning yourself.
Not that I ever burned myself with callgirls, but then we are a very old, catholic and civilized nation.
In other words, we can handle the grown up shit.
You might be able to too.
Pfft, I wouldn’t brag. You guys can’t even replace your own population. Might have something to with all that stuff you’re proud of. Who wants to emulate the dinosaur?
Now, let’s go back to the question of murder. If law prevents us from recognizing virtue, then you must to legalize murder so that we are more likely to recognize it as a wrong. Further, the existence of the law makes us a “servile people.”
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, you want to legalize murder?[/quote]
No, but drugs and prostitution and gambling and prading on main street on saturday without a handkerchief, you puritan you.
Because you do not learn that fire is hot without burning yourself.
Not that I ever burned myself with callgirls, but then we are a very old, catholic and civilized nation.
In other words, we can handle the grown up shit.
You might be able to too.[/quote]
Pfft, I wouldn’t brag. You guys can’t even replace your own population. Might have something to with all that stuff you’re proud of. Who wants to emulate the dinosaur?
Now, let’s go back to the question of murder. If law prevents us from recognizing virtue, then you must to legalize murder so that we are more likely to recognize it as a wrong. Further, the existence of the law makes us a “servile people.”[/quote]
So if you do nogt have a law that tells you that murder is wrong you would not know how to act?
That is your problem right there.
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
ahhh - my apologies, thought you were just stating positional thoughts rather than expressing a question.
No, I’m not saying we are only free because our governments protect our freedoms. I’m saying, we already know what our freedoms are and willing give up the smallest possible measure of freedom for the ability to mutually protect the remaining freedoms. The american government was setup as a negative government - ie, we told the government what it could not do, not what it could do - the freedoms were outlined by the people prior to the existence of the government. That is the definition of limited government.
Unfotunately, our people have not been vigilant and a government not controlled, is a government that grows to control. Even our amazingly designed government has overreached its boundaries (the presence of evil men) due to a failure by the FREE people to keep it within its confines.
Freedom is more than choice, it is also the freedom to not choose (although we could arugue that that is also a choice - lol) - it’s why I think citizenship in America should not be automatic, that it should be a decision made by every individual when they reach 18 - they have to pass a basic competency test and verbally choose to become a citizen with all of the responsibilites that apply. Then, only citizens can stand for office and vote for people to hold office, be property owners, etc. non-citizens can leave in the US, but only as residents - no property ownership, no sole business ownership, etc. and there I go off onto another topic - sorry, mind seems to be wandering a bit today . . .
[/quote]
So mentally handicap and mute people cannot be citizens of the United States?
So, what you are saying is that if I did not pass this state mandated and state created test, I would lose my land and businesses? That is not freedom, that is not even logical.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The truth is:
Living under a State one can never be free.[/quote]
Fixed.