What is Freedom?

JJ - always a pleasure conversing with you! Thanks for the great post and it is good that someone understands Rousseau enough to recognize the danger inherent in his definitions.

I was not, however, trying to imply Roussean “natural state” as the foundational premise of my post. I was trying to convey that we already exist free (not the generic natural state of Rousseau). We choose what limitations on our freedoms we will or will not allow.

In a free society with limited government (BTW this is a limitation on Government - not just a reflection of its size), we choose to allow a curtailing of certain freedoms in order to gain some measure of interactibility with others while protecting ourselves, our families, our property, and yes even our freedoms from harm or destruction. These are restrictions that we choose, thus they have their legitimacy in our approval. In this way, Freedom is seen not just as our natural state, but also with the caveat of not being coerced. Thus I would say that freddom ='s Freedom of Choice, Free of Coersion.

I like your agreement that freedom is a active state, no a passive mentality. Wasn’t that the balance we tried to achieve as evidence in Burke’s writings?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Sure, but who would ever want to deal with you in any situation?

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Sure, but who would ever want to deal with you in any situation?[/quote]

I’m not sure the rapist, or the bank robber, or the bandit leader, really care if you want to deal with them or not

[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Let me dissent. As I have said before and I will say again & again, freedom, equality and justice are human concepts to regulate human behavior. They have no analogs in the natural world, where aggression rules.[/quote]

Aggression does rule the natural world. And look what those silly beasts accomplish with it.

Absolutely nothing!

So long as warrior culture has ruled society the overwhelming majority has lived a short, brutish, and impoverished existence – like animals.

Man must tame his aggression if he wants civilization.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself.

No, it isn’t. Virtue is subjective, anyway.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself. [/quote]

Much in the same way that air is not a virtue.

It is a necessity.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
No, it isn’t. [/quote]

Then it isn’t the end all of human existence, if it can’t even be considered a virtue. And, even if treated as a virtue, would then fall to “subjective” interpretation. So, not only do I not mind giving over some ‘freedom,’ some choices, to the state, I actually find doing so is necessary to maintain the choices worth making. If that makes me a statist, so be it. However, it’s not like “statist” really means alot coming from an anarchist.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself. [/quote]

Much in the same way that air is not a virtue.

It is a necessity.

[/quote]

The freedom to necessary things, is a necessity. The freedom to pollute the air (a necessity) from your property isn’t. So yes, air is a necessity. So is water. Now, the freedom to buy a piece of land next to my own so you can display public sexual acts with all manner of person and beast, isn’t a necessity.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself. [/quote]

Much in the same way that air is not a virtue.

It is a necessity.

[/quote]

The freedom to necessary things, is a necessity. The freedom to pollute the air (a necessity) from your property isn’t. So yes, air is a necessity. So is water. Now, the freedom to buy a piece of land next to my own so you can display public sexual acts with all manner of person and beast, isn’t a necessity.[/quote]

That is not the point.

The point was that freedom is a fundamental necessity for virtue, without freedom you cannot be virtuous, you can only bow to power.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself. [/quote]

Much in the same way that air is not a virtue.

It is a necessity.

[/quote]

The freedom to necessary things, is a necessity. The freedom to pollute the air (a necessity) from your property isn’t. So yes, air is a necessity. So is water. Now, the freedom to buy a piece of land next to my own so you can display public sexual acts with all manner of person and beast, isn’t a necessity.[/quote]

That is not the point.

The point was that freedom is a fundamental necessity for virtue, without freedom you cannot be virtuous, you can only bow to power.

[/quote]

False. I can still recognize a virtue enforced by law, while knowing that those who care nothing for virtue are limited in their destruction.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself. [/quote]

Much in the same way that air is not a virtue.

It is a necessity.

[/quote]

The freedom to necessary things, is a necessity. The freedom to pollute the air (a necessity) from your property isn’t. So yes, air is a necessity. So is water. Now, the freedom to buy a piece of land next to my own so you can display public sexual acts with all manner of person and beast, isn’t a necessity.[/quote]

That is not the point.

The point was that freedom is a fundamental necessity for virtue, without freedom you cannot be virtuous, you can only bow to power.

[/quote]

False. I can still recognize a virtue enforced by law, while knowing that those who care nothing for virtue are limited in their destruction.[/quote]

No you cannot.

All you can “recognize” that you treat people like chattle which will forever prevent them from developing their moral muscles on their own.

And then, people, just like you, will proclaim that force is necessary because people will not do on their own what is right.

First you rob free people of the competence to deal with this shit on their own and then you proclaim that they need your help to deal with it and sooner or later they really do.

You are a closet liberal.

No one is limited by anything. Anyone who really wants to destroy something will. Your precious government will not protect you but they will enslave you and tell you they are.

9/11

Just sayin’.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Until someone contests your behavior.

It’s only a matter of time.[/quote]

Perhaps. However, it illustrates that freedom isn’t a virtue in of itself. [/quote]

Much in the same way that air is not a virtue.

It is a necessity.

[/quote]

The freedom to necessary things, is a necessity. The freedom to pollute the air (a necessity) from your property isn’t. So yes, air is a necessity. So is water. Now, the freedom to buy a piece of land next to my own so you can display public sexual acts with all manner of person and beast, isn’t a necessity.[/quote]

That is not the point.

The point was that freedom is a fundamental necessity for virtue, without freedom you cannot be virtuous, you can only bow to power.

[/quote]

False. I can still recognize a virtue enforced by law, while knowing that those who care nothing for virtue are limited in their destruction.[/quote]

No you cannot.

All you can “recognize” that you treat people like chattle which will forever prevent them from developing their moral muscles on their own.

And then, people, just like you, will proclaim that force is necessary because people will not do on their own what is right.

First you rob free people of the competence to deal with this shit on their own and then you proclaim that they need your help to deal with it and sooner or later they really do.

You are a closet liberal.

I understand freedom to be personal autonomy over how one leads one’s life.

So that’s a political concept but also a psychological concept. It takes work to actually live freely, to “be your own man,” even in the presence of political rights. I’m still working on it.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
A truly free human being has no concern for others. [/quote]

That is not true.

A truly free human being can decide for himself whom he has a concern for.[/quote]

I take what I want, kill what I want, enslave what I want, and rape what I want. And, I’m free enough to accept the risks. I’m the most free person you’ll ever meet![/quote]

Sure, but who would ever want to deal with you in any situation?[/quote]

I’m not sure the rapist, or the bank robber, or the bandit leader, really care if you want to deal with them or not[/quote]

They may not, but it is only at a loss to them.

[quote]orion wrote:

And then, people, just like you, will proclaim that force is necessary because people will not do on their own what is right.

First you rob free people of the competence to deal with this shit on their own and then you proclaim that they need your help to deal with it and sooner or later they really do.

You are a closet liberal.

[/quote]

Nay, I’m a conservative. Libertarians are liberals. Democrats are part liberal/part realist.

Liberalism/Libertarianism maximizes the centralization of power. And anarchy? A non-starter. I’m a decentralist.

…and tonight the part of Ryan P McCarty will be played by Sloth.