[quote]Severiano wrote:
Just like you share common beliefs and values with people of Islam.
[/quote]
I also share “beliefs” with pagans. But I don’t share theology. Christians and Jewish people share the Tanakah, which is huge. Islam rejects the Tanakah, which is fundamental.
There are no “versions” of G-d. There is G-d.
No. Judaism may reject as untrue the Christian “helpers” of G-d, but Christians still worship the G-d of Abrham, Issac, and Jacob. I have no idea what muslims worship.
I don’t know or care what Mormons believe, and, as they are not considered Christians by anyone but themselves, not relevant to this discussion.
Ah, the moral equivalent argument of a stupid person. Chrisians and Jewish people defending themselves from muslim violence is not the same as muslim violence.
[quote]
You even share customs with your food that are quite similar as well, as in many places when Jews cannot find Koshir foods, they will seek out Halal foods (seen this for myself) [/quote]
Halal food is not kosher. Any Jewish person who does this is stupid.
[quote]
Just because you are rivals, doesn’t mean you don’t share a lot in common. [/quote]
Jewish people and muslims are not “rivals.” I am happy to let muslims live and let live. Many mulsims, however, as a tenant of their religion, want to kill me and preach that I am a “pig” and inherantly evil.
I guess Nazi Germany and France were “rivals” to your way of thinking.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The irony of this statement coming from my old friend Pat is simply beyond words.[/quote]
This brings up another point. There are people in this world who have read the bible and understand it far better than you, pat, and I’m sure many of them disagree with your views on it.
Does that mean you haven’t read the bible? No? Well then I guess you must be “dumb as Hell”. After all, it’s one or the other, right?[/quote]
No he read it. He didn’t understand it, but he read it.Then he proceeded to insert a bunch of garbage that wasn’t and isn’t there.[/quote]
What about the members of Westboro? Surely you don’t agree with them, and they live eat and sleep the bible![/quote]
I would say there share many traits. And I detest Westboro. Yeah, they know the words, but they cherry pick the meanings. Basically it breaks down like this, some people use the bible to suit their own purposes. You can recognize them by the fact that they cherry pick certain parts, out of context and use that to bring glory to themselves. Others, read the bible, have a hard time accepting all of it, but sturggle humbly to live the word.
So if you see people using the bible to make themselves great (Westboro) then you have the former, if you see people who are trying to be better people then you have the latter.
the word of God is a powerful thing, and when it’s misused it’s often tragic.[/quote]
Sure, but they would say the same thing about you. Certainly they think they are better people for their bat-shittery. What makes you better than them? I have nothing but your words to go on, so how can I determine who really understands the word of God better?
And don’t say “read the bible”, if it were that simple, Westboro wouldn’t exist. [/quote]
I just explained this, why are you asking the same question twice? It is actions. You can tell a tree by it’s fruit. Their fruit is rotten. Reading the bible doesn’t make you good. Believing in God doesn’t make you good. “The devil does as much”.
You do have more than words to go on, you’ve seen them act.
Why should I reject the Bible or religion because some people who claim it are assholes?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< “God is the being that no one can know!!” >>>[/quote]I know Him. I am His brother, bride and son. You really don know a thing about Christianity dude.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< “God is the being that no one can know!!” >>>[/quote]I know Him. I am His brother, bride and son. You really don know a thing about Christianity dude.
[/quote]
“And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.”
To live as though god exists means to believe, if you don’t believe you can’t just fake it so there is really no wager to be made.[/quote]
If I were Christian I would argue that one doesn’t necessarily go to hell based on lack of faith. Doubting Thomas the apostle never seemed to have faith, he had knowledge in the story. If people went to hell for lack of faith, then Thomas would be in hell because he required knowledge of Christs resurrection before professing his faith. In essence, I’m not even sure he ever had faith in Christ until after he had knowledge Christ is God in the story leads to several unexpected conclusions.
If this is true, then there is no need to have faith in Christ at all. If God judges the heart, then faith doesn’t necessarily even have to factor into anyone going to heaven or hell. Not a very good recruiting tool for religion though
Faith is a type of unjustified belief by definition.
Knowledge is traditionally defined as a justified, true belief (but this is arguable)
Which is what Thomas seemed to have in the story… So the way I understand it, requiring knowledge to believe in God seems perfectly reasonable given the information in the story. I don’t think this is what the story is trying to teach, but what I explained follows, unless you want to say St. Thomas the apostle is in hell.
This applies to Pascals wager in the sense that Faith isnt’ required. Problem is this leaves room for Atheists to go to heaven as well :)[/quote]
Thomas, first was a man of faith. Second, Thomas never ceased seeking. There in lies the difference. Everybody wants to ‘get knocked off their horse’ or see some big miracle. Well, that shit ain’t gonna happen. These men you lift up as examples of doubt were first seekers. Not seeking for reasons not to believe, but seeking reasons to believe. God reveals himself when you seek, not when you reject.
Those of us who believe know what I mean because we have all experienced it. You lot think we just believe in some ancient book because we’re scared of going to hell. Well, if that were all it was about we would have all given up along time ago, because simply avoiding hell isn’t worth it. There is some thing tangible and real, but it’s personal and cannot be articulated. If we say we experience something, you either say we’re delusional or liars. But it doesn’t make sense for every single one of us to be liars… Some may be, and historically we have had no shortage of liars, but when it’s there and it’s real. It cannot be denied.
I liken it to an acid trip… You cannot articulate what it’s like to somebody who hasn’t done it, but everybody whose done it, knows. Faith is very similar. When you have had the real experience that comes from faith, you know.
You get you Thomas or Paul experience through faith, not through stubborn disbelief…
We have free will. Standing there with your arms folded saying, “I won’t believe until you make me believe.” won’t get you anything. You’re going to be standing there an awful long time and nothing will ever happen.
Nobody, not even God is interested in forcing you to believe in him.[/quote]
Here’s the thing. You can believe in something and still have knowledge about it. But you cannot have faith in something and have knowledge about it as well, as once something becomes knowledge it is no longer faith. Knowledge = Justified True Belief. Faith is belief without the justified truth.
When Thomas/ Doubting Thomas insisted on seeing Christs wounds, he lacked faith. Once he became aware the wounds were indeed real, that lack of faith didn’t all of a sudden become faith, because by definition it became knowledge.
That someone might seek knowledge seems that faith may not be sufficient for them? I’m only suggesting it, because if faith is as important as I remember it being back when I was Catholic, it could factor into where ones soul winds up(heaven, hell, purgatory).
I rather like the idea that, if there is a God that he might be a judge of the heart. If you have a good heart, you are a good person and look for the good in people, perhaps that is good enough to get you into heaven, even if you are a non believer.
I initially thought that maybe the language was different back then, maybe Faith was defined differently… Knowledge has been defined as I described since the days of Plato, so I know for a fact Thomas sought knowledge, and not faith in the same way as we define it. I figure this because some of the original, “Atheists” were Catholics. They were called such because they didn’t believe in the same gods as the Romans, and this is the original way the word was used. This might be a matter of language and translation.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Hey, you once asked me if I would go to Church with you. I’ll go if Christ shows up with grievous wounds and lifts some weights with me! Heck, I’ll dedicated my life to him if that happens. I wouldn’t have belief, I’d have knowledge, and that is what I require just like Thomas did.
I know my interpretation may bug you a bit Brother Chris, not trying to pick a fight, but I am curious as to what you think of my interpretation and conclusion. [/quote]
It doesn’t bug me. That’s why I laughed. It’s like my neighbor diagnosing me with different illnesses. He might get the illness right every once and awhile, but that is by luck; you should really go to a doctor to get a diagnosis. Here’s a little information. Interpreting scripture is not a free for all. There are principles of interpreting, they are simple, but we have them. Though even if you do interpret scripture it, it does not mean it is a sound interpretation. It seems to me this is because people limit scripture to various levels and depths.
St. Thomas went to Church, St. Thomas already had dedicated his life to Jesus Christ, and St. Thomas believed, “Thomas, thou hast believed” (John 20:29).
We know that St. Thomas had the power to forgive sins (St. Cyril), so he was an Episcopal. We know that the grief and trouble St. Thomas was experiencing might partly excuse his want of belief. He did not believe by witness alone. St. Gregory pointed out that his backwardness in believing was permitted for the good for Christians in general, that by St. Thomas they might be more convinced of Christ’s resurrection.
“The doubts of St. Thomas are of greater advantage to the strengthening of our faith, than the ready belief of the rest of the apostles. For when he proceeded to touch, to assure his faith, our minds, laying aside every, even the least doubt, are firmly established in faith.” (St. Gregory the Great).
Basically, though Protestants throw a tank into the theological gears of the engine room when it comes to defining things. Faith and reason are not opposed. Mostly because when Protestants say faith they mean belief, though belief and reason are not opposed either, so I’m not sure where I was going with that one. Oh yes, belief.
I’ll explain more.
Believe is distinguished from “knowledge” since there is no question of resolving it into its first principles. Belief is the state of mind by which it assents to propositions, not by reason of their intrinsic evidence, but because of authority (or, witnesses).
So seeing Jesus in person is not going to produce knowledge, it’s going to produce belief. You’d have to resolve the first principles through reason, the closest thing I can offer you is to study Christology: Christology - Wikipedia
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Hey, you once asked me if I would go to Church with you. I’ll go if Christ shows up with grievous wounds and lifts some weights with me! Heck, I’ll dedicated my life to him if that happens. I wouldn’t have belief, I’d have knowledge, and that is what I require just like Thomas did.
I know my interpretation may bug you a bit Brother Chris, not trying to pick a fight, but I am curious as to what you think of my interpretation and conclusion. [/quote]
It doesn’t bug me. That’s why I laughed. It’s like my neighbor diagnosing me with different illnesses. He might get the illness right every once and awhile, but that is by luck; you should really go to a doctor to get a diagnosis. Here’s a little information. Interpreting scripture is not a free for all. There are principles of interpreting, they are simple, but we have them. Though even if you do interpret scripture it, it does not mean it is a sound interpretation. It seems to me this is because people limit scripture to various levels and depths.
St. Thomas went to Church, St. Thomas already had dedicated his life to Jesus Christ, and St. Thomas believed, “Thomas, thou hast believed” (John 20:29).
We know that St. Thomas had the power to forgive sins (St. Cyril), so he was an Episcopal. We know that the grief and trouble St. Thomas was experiencing might partly excuse his want of belief. He did not believe by witness alone. St. Gregory pointed out that his backwardness in believing was permitted for the good for Christians in general, that by St. Thomas they might be more convinced of Christ’s resurrection.
“The doubts of St. Thomas are of greater advantage to the strengthening of our faith, than the ready belief of the rest of the apostles. For when he proceeded to touch, to assure his faith, our minds, laying aside every, even the least doubt, are firmly established in faith.” (St. Gregory the Great).
Basically, though Protestants throw a tank into the theological gears of the engine room when it comes to defining things. Faith and reason are not opposed. Mostly because when Protestants say faith they mean belief, though belief and reason are not opposed either, so I’m not sure where I was going with that one. Oh yes, belief.
I’ll explain more.
Believe is distinguished from “knowledge” since there is no question of resolving it into its first principles. Belief is the state of mind by which it assents to propositions, not by reason of their intrinsic evidence, but because of authority (or, witnesses).
So seeing Jesus in person is not going to produce knowledge, it’s going to produce belief. You’d have to resolve the first principles through reason, the closest thing I can offer you is to study Christology: Christology - Wikipedia
Good luck. [/quote]
Thanks a bunch! I’ll read through it, I’ve always found this sort of stuff interesting.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< “God is the being that no one can know!!” >>>[/quote]I know Him. I am His brother, bride and son. You really don know a thing about Christianity dude.
[/quote]
“And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.”[/quote]Amen brother Joab. A snippet from the the Lord’s “high priestly prayer” in the 17th chapter of the gospel of John.
Brother: Romans 8:29
Bride: Ephesians 5:32 (starting with 22 actually)
Son: 1 John 3:1
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< “God is the being that no one can know!!” >>>[/quote]I know Him. I am His brother, bride and son. You really don know a thing about Christianity dude.
[/quote]
“And this is life eternal: that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.”[/quote]Amen brother Joab. A snippet from the the Lord’s “high priestly prayer” in the 17th chapter of the gospel of John.
Brother: Romans 8:29
Bride: Ephesians 5:32 (starting with 22 actually)
Son: 1 John 3:1
[/quote]
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Headhunter! Check out the epistemology and metaphysics threads! There’s good stuff from non-religious and religious alike. [/quote]I tried that, but he doesn’t want to see his girlfriend disrobed and humiliated so he just pops in and does finger exercises with the L and O keys every so often accompanied by Sesame Street pictures. Apparently disciples of Rand see this as persuasive. Try as I might I just can’t seem to get it.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Headhunter! Check out the epistemology and metaphysics threads! There’s good stuff from non-religious and religious alike. [/quote]I tried that, but he doesn’t want to see his girlfriend disrobed and humiliated so he just pops in and does finger exercises with the L and O keys every so often accompanied by Sesame Street pictures. Apparently disciples of Rand see this as persuasive. Try as I might I just can’t seem to get it.
[/quote]
I so don’t get it. I see him post some bright stuff every once in a while, and then religion comes up and I don’t know what happens!
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Headhunter! Check out the epistemology and metaphysics threads! There’s good stuff from non-religious and religious alike. [/quote]I tried that, but he doesn’t want to see his girlfriend disrobed and humiliated so he just pops in and does finger exercises with the L and O keys every so often accompanied by Sesame Street pictures. Apparently disciples of Rand see this as persuasive. Try as I might I just can’t seem to get it.
[/quote]
I so don’t get it. I see him post some bright stuff every once in a while, and then religion comes up and I don’t know what happens![/quote]I agree. He does say some bright stuff. If you’ve noticed I have never once called anybody’s intelligence into question in one of these debates. Ever. I’ll say again. I don’t need people to be stupid to be wrong. The more gifted they are, and boy are some of them ever, the more potential they have for truly championship achievements in sinful brilliance.
HH will be alright once Jesus breaks his hard heart =] Even Bert will praise the Lord that day.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Headhunter! Check out the epistemology and metaphysics threads! There’s good stuff from non-religious and religious alike. [/quote]I tried that, but he doesn’t want to see his girlfriend disrobed and humiliated so he just pops in and does finger exercises with the L and O keys every so often accompanied by Sesame Street pictures. Apparently disciples of Rand see this as persuasive. Try as I might I just can’t seem to get it.
[/quote]
I so don’t get it. I see him post some bright stuff every once in a while, and then religion comes up and I don’t know what happens![/quote]
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Headhunter! Check out the epistemology and metaphysics threads! There’s good stuff from non-religious and religious alike. [/quote]I tried that, but he doesn’t want to see his girlfriend disrobed and humiliated so he just pops in and does finger exercises with the L and O keys every so often accompanied by Sesame Street pictures. Apparently disciples of Rand see this as persuasive. Try as I might I just can’t seem to get it.
[/quote]
I so don’t get it. I see him post some bright stuff every once in a while, and then religion comes up and I don’t know what happens![/quote]
I’ve studied philosophy for over 30 years (one of my degrees). Carnap, Wittgenstein, Russell, Rawls…pretty much any of these ‘gents’. None of them can compare to the intellectual depth and clarity of exposition embodied in the work of Ms. Rand.
So, I don’t bother arguing with non-professionals about these topics; no point.
Instead, I would much rather discuss a God who decides that his creation (Man) is evil, so the solution is to be reborn as your own son and then let yourself be tortured to death. That sets a shining example of how humans should act – let yourself be tortured to death for the benefit of evil people.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
Headhunter! Check out the epistemology and metaphysics threads! There’s good stuff from non-religious and religious alike. [/quote]I tried that, but he doesn’t want to see his girlfriend disrobed and humiliated so he just pops in and does finger exercises with the L and O keys every so often accompanied by Sesame Street pictures. Apparently disciples of Rand see this as persuasive. Try as I might I just can’t seem to get it.
[/quote]
I so don’t get it. I see him post some bright stuff every once in a while, and then religion comes up and I don’t know what happens![/quote]
I’ve studied philosophy for over 30 years (one of my degrees). Carnap, Wittgenstein, Russell, Rawls…pretty much any of these ‘gents’. None of them can compare to the intellectual depth and clarity of exposition embodied in the work of Ms. Rand.
So, I don’t bother arguing with non-professionals about these topics; no point.
Instead, I would much rather discuss a God who decides that his creation (Man) is evil, so the solution is to be reborn as your own son and then let yourself be tortured to death. That sets a shining example of how humans should act – let yourself be tortured to death for the benefit of evil people.
[/quote]
What’s the philosophy you adhere to? I might’ve missed it on the forums, but I don’t recall much more than you just bashing the religious without much logical rebuttal.
