[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
LOL
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]
An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?[/quote]
Yes
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]
Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.
He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]
LOL! No.
We know the universe is caused. The universe is dependent on space, and time. Or more specifically movement and information as it’s most elementary. So no, the universe is not uncaused.
Or I could shift burden of proof and have to try to prove something with a cause really doesn’t have a cause…You really don’t actually understand causation, do you?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]
An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?[/quote]
Yes[/quote]
This idiotic theory have been debunked many times over, however even if true, it’s still irrelevant to the problem. The infinite cycle has a reason for being that way. To say otherwise is circular, circular reasoning is false and you keep getting caught up in it.
Infinity doesn’t matter…
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I think what Tirib. is saying is that total nothingness never existed. By definition, an eternal first cause is beyond the constraints of time and space.[/quote]
Lot’s of things are beyond the constraints of time and space, but you are right, there is no such thing as a non-existent state, or realm. Any metaphysical entity is proof of that fact.[/quote]
Even is nothingness is a state or realm, it’s no longer nothingness. [/quote]
Correct, nothingness cannot exist. That’s why the claim of something from nothing is utterly ridiculous…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
This entire argument is a straw house. All religions are just updated mythology that has been programmed in to the heads of countless infants for centuries. Not one iota of fact or truth exists to prove there is any deity, angel, or devil. The question of infinite regression is absurd and filled with the imagination of human creation in order to mollify the masses and win wars. One can praise their own imaginary deity to the end for the wonders done but it remains imagination. Grow up and know that what is is what is and what we create in fairy tails and myths should be kept for entertainment and lessons but not drummed in to our conscience until we are numb(joyous) with the unreality of a smoke trail based on religions predating current religions by hundreds and thousand of years.[/quote]
Your friends must call you a modern Aristotle. [/quote]
That’s not what I was thinking… That was just a laughably bad diatribe… I wonder why he even bothered.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]
Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.
He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]
LOL! No.
We know the universe is caused. The universe is dependent on space, and time. Or more specifically movement and information as it’s most elementary. So no, the universe is not uncaused.
Or I could shift burden of proof and have to try to prove something with a cause really doesn’t have a cause…You really don’t actually understand causation, do you?[/quote]
Why is God not dependent on space and time? Because the universe is now, how do you know it always was?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]
Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.
He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]
LOL! No.
We know the universe is caused. The universe is dependent on space, and time. Or more specifically movement and information as it’s most elementary. So no, the universe is not uncaused.
Or I could shift burden of proof and have to try to prove something with a cause really doesn’t have a cause…You really don’t actually understand causation, do you?[/quote]
Why is God not dependent on space and time? Because the universe is now, how do you know it always was?[/quote]
Space and time are not dependent on the universe, the universe is dependent on them. The universe isn’t really a “thing”, it’s defined by the stuff it’s made of…
Lot’s of things exist that are independent of space and time, something doesn’t have to occupy space and time to exist, only physical things have to do that, the metaphysical is exempt, but the metaphysical is in control. Physical matter is bound by the rules that guide it, not the other way around. When you understand the true nature of things, it starts to make a lot more sense. It’s viewing it through the lens of reason, not the paradigm of the senses or ‘appearances’. Appearance tells you very little about what something is… Only what it looks like.
Pat, I really don’t care what you think. You are over-consumed with intelligence you don’t posess.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Something >>>[/quote]?
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]
Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.
He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]
LOL! No.
We know the universe is caused. The universe is dependent on space, and time. Or more specifically movement and information as it’s most elementary. So no, the universe is not uncaused.
Or I could shift burden of proof and have to try to prove something with a cause really doesn’t have a cause…You really don’t actually understand causation, do you?[/quote]
Why is God not dependent on space and time? Because the universe is now, how do you know it always was?[/quote]
Space and time are not dependent on the universe, the universe is dependent on them. The universe isn’t really a “thing”, it’s defined by the stuff it’s made of…
Lot’s of things exist that are independent of space and time, something doesn’t have to occupy space and time to exist, only physical things have to do that, the metaphysical is exempt, but the metaphysical is in control. Physical matter is bound by the rules that guide it, not the other way around. When you understand the true nature of things, it starts to make a lot more sense. It’s viewing it through the lens of reason, not the paradigm of the senses or ‘appearances’. Appearance tells you very little about what something is… Only what it looks like.[/quote]
So why is God not dependent on space and time?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]
Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.
He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]
LOL! No.
We know the universe is caused. The universe is dependent on space, and time. Or more specifically movement and information as it’s most elementary. So no, the universe is not uncaused.
Or I could shift burden of proof and have to try to prove something with a cause really doesn’t have a cause…You really don’t actually understand causation, do you?[/quote]
Why is God not dependent on space and time? Because the universe is now, how do you know it always was?[/quote]
Space and time are not dependent on the universe, the universe is dependent on them. The universe isn’t really a “thing”, it’s defined by the stuff it’s made of…
Lot’s of things exist that are independent of space and time, something doesn’t have to occupy space and time to exist, only physical things have to do that, the metaphysical is exempt, but the metaphysical is in control. Physical matter is bound by the rules that guide it, not the other way around. When you understand the true nature of things, it starts to make a lot more sense. It’s viewing it through the lens of reason, not the paradigm of the senses or ‘appearances’. Appearance tells you very little about what something is… Only what it looks like.[/quote]
So why is God not dependent on space and time?[/quote]
He wouldn’t be God if he were. That on which all is dependent, by definition alone, cannot be dependent on anything. Just like a math equation, the solution is the inverse.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]
Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.
He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]
Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]
LOL! No.
We know the universe is caused. The universe is dependent on space, and time. Or more specifically movement and information as it’s most elementary. So no, the universe is not uncaused.
Or I could shift burden of proof and have to try to prove something with a cause really doesn’t have a cause…You really don’t actually understand causation, do you?[/quote]
Why is God not dependent on space and time? Because the universe is now, how do you know it always was?[/quote]
Space and time are not dependent on the universe, the universe is dependent on them. The universe isn’t really a “thing”, it’s defined by the stuff it’s made of…
Lot’s of things exist that are independent of space and time, something doesn’t have to occupy space and time to exist, only physical things have to do that, the metaphysical is exempt, but the metaphysical is in control. Physical matter is bound by the rules that guide it, not the other way around. When you understand the true nature of things, it starts to make a lot more sense. It’s viewing it through the lens of reason, not the paradigm of the senses or ‘appearances’. Appearance tells you very little about what something is… Only what it looks like.[/quote]
So why is God not dependent on space and time?[/quote]
He wouldn’t be God if he were. That on which all is dependent, by definition alone, cannot be dependent on anything. Just like a math equation, the solution is the inverse.[/quote]
So what is an example of something that does not occupy space and time that does exist?
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]
An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?[/quote]
Yes[/quote]
Then it would still seem to have a beginning, which would demand a cause.
I believe it also goes against ockham’s razor.
shouldnt we be more scared if the christians were right??
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]
An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?[/quote]
Yes[/quote]
Then it would still seem to have a beginning, which would demand a cause.
I believe it also goes against ockham’s razor. [/quote]
“Seem”.
Come on Chris.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]
An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?[/quote]
Yes[/quote]
Then it would still seem to have a beginning, which would demand a cause.
I believe it also goes against ockham’s razor. [/quote]
“Seem”.
Come on Chris.[/quote]
Please lend me your time machine so I can make sure instead of it just seeming like it has a beginning.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]
An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?[/quote]
Yes[/quote]
Then it would still seem to have a beginning, which would demand a cause.
I believe it also goes against ockham’s razor. [/quote]
How does it go against Occam’s razor?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Please lend me your time machine so I can make sure instead of it just seeming like it has a beginning. [/quote]You could always read Genesis like Chesterton did. I know how silly that sounds, I’m jist sayin.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]
The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]
LOL[/quote]
Yup! Being religious requires that one violate the rules of logic all the time. How else can a human become a robot?