What if Christians are Wrong?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

Nope. [/quote]

Can you explain why not? I fail to see how you can know for sure that the universe itself does not have God like properties required to be its own first cause.[/quote]

Because something can’t be it’s own cause.[/quote]

God is, OR it always existed and has no cause, which one is it? Whatever your answer is I am asking why the Universe can’t have this same property, if God is so special in this case, why can’t the Universe be special and God not exist?[/quote]

This is what Einstein and other pagans thought until Einstein was confronted with his colleague’s, Msgr. Georges Lemaitre, Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom.

You can say that the Big Bang theory (properly called the Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom) is unlikely, which would possibly allow you to argue the eternal character of the universe. However, as I do believe that the big bang theory to be likely, I see that the universe did not always exist, so it is not eternal and it had to have a beginning and according to logic, that means that it had to have a cause. And, eventually an eternal cause, infinite regress not being possible. This is usually referred to as the Prime Mover in philosophy. [/quote]

What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

Nope. [/quote]

Can you explain why not? I fail to see how you can know for sure that the universe itself does not have God like properties required to be its own first cause.[/quote]

Because something can’t be it’s own cause.[/quote]

God is, OR it always existed and has no cause, which one is it? Whatever your answer is I am asking why the Universe can’t have this same property, if God is so special in this case, why can’t the Universe be special and God not exist?[/quote]

This is what Einstein and other pagans thought until Einstein was confronted with his colleague’s, Msgr. Georges Lemaitre, Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom.

You can say that the Big Bang theory (properly called the Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom) is unlikely, which would possibly allow you to argue the eternal character of the universe. However, as I do believe that the big bang theory to be likely, I see that the universe did not always exist, so it is not eternal and it had to have a beginning and according to logic, that means that it had to have a cause. And, eventually an eternal cause, infinite regress not being possible. This is usually referred to as the Prime Mover in philosophy. [/quote]

What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]

I nearly said universe, but I caught myself and used existence instead.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

Nope. [/quote]

Can you explain why not? I fail to see how you can know for sure that the universe itself does not have God like properties required to be its own first cause.[/quote]

Because something can’t be it’s own cause.[/quote]

God is, OR it always existed and has no cause, which one is it? Whatever your answer is I am asking why the Universe can’t have this same property, if God is so special in this case, why can’t the Universe be special and God not exist?[/quote]

This is what Einstein and other pagans thought until Einstein was confronted with his colleague’s, Msgr. Georges Lemaitre, Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom.

You can say that the Big Bang theory (properly called the Hypothesis of the Primeval Atom) is unlikely, which would possibly allow you to argue the eternal character of the universe. However, as I do believe that the big bang theory to be likely, I see that the universe did not always exist, so it is not eternal and it had to have a beginning and according to logic, that means that it had to have a cause. And, eventually an eternal cause, infinite regress not being possible. This is usually referred to as the Prime Mover in philosophy. [/quote]

What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]

If it could, it would, but it doesn’t so it isn’t.
Oscillating universe or accordion universe theories have first largely debunked as completely devoid of any kind of potential reality and second, even if true is not sufficient to explain it’s own existence. What exists, really isn’t the problem, existing is the problem in need of a solution, doesn’t really matter what it is, the universe or a tooth pick, neither is reliant on itself for it’s existence.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Pat, you keep digging your hole deeper. But since you were around at the beginning of existence (only way you can know for sure about these things you are so sure about) can you tell me which of these simple successions is the correct one?

A. Nothing → God → Existence
B. Something → God → Existence
[/quote]

That’s not the argument, so I am not sure what the hell you actually talking about. How can an Uncaused-cause, be caused?
The flaw is in your understanding, not the argument.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I think what Tirib. is saying is that total nothingness never existed. By definition, an eternal first cause is beyond the constraints of time and space.[/quote]

Lot’s of things are beyond the constraints of time and space, but you are right, there is no such thing as a non-existent state, or realm. Any metaphysical entity is proof of that fact.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]

Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.

He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

O_O

Why not?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]

Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.

He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]

Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.

He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]

Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]

Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.

He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]

Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]

Nononono…

Obviously the universe has a cause whereas the “god” he introduces has not.

Pay attention.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

So the universe can be its own first cause?[/quote]

The initial problem is you’re engaged in circular reasoning. You cannot violate the rules of logic.[/quote]

Is God exempt from this? I am asking if God is its own first cause, why the Universe can’t be instead.[/quote]

Uh, something ‘Uncaused’ by definition, isn’t and couldn’t be caused. It isn’t an exemption, it’s just simply a reality by logical necessity.

He isn’t. And the universe can’t, both are circular reasoning and therefore invalid.
[/quote]

Okay, so I claim the Universe is Uncaused, that was easy. Any objections?[/quote]

Nononono…

Obviously the universe has a cause whereas the “god” he introduces has not.

Pay attention.

[/quote]

I get it now, its so obvious. God doesn’t exist so of course he doesn’t have a cause.

This entire argument is a straw house. All religions are just updated mythology that has been programmed in to the heads of countless infants for centuries. Not one iota of fact or truth exists to prove there is any deity, angel, or devil. The question of infinite regression is absurd and filled with the imagination of human creation in order to mollify the masses and win wars. One can praise their own imaginary deity to the end for the wonders done but it remains imagination. Grow up and know that what is is what is and what we create in fairy tails and myths should be kept for entertainment and lessons but not drummed in to our conscience until we are numb(joyous) with the unreality of a smoke trail based on religions predating current religions by hundreds and thousand of years.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I think what Tirib. is saying is that total nothingness never existed. By definition, an eternal first cause is beyond the constraints of time and space.[/quote]

Lot’s of things are beyond the constraints of time and space, but you are right, there is no such thing as a non-existent state, or realm. Any metaphysical entity is proof of that fact.[/quote]

Even is nothingness is a state or realm, it’s no longer nothingness.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< tearing apart fundamentalists’ >>>[/quote]You’re clueless Chris. My epistemology bears no resemblance, even superficially, with what anybody would recognize as fundamentalism. If we ever can move forward, all will come to light. I will ignore your accusations of my ignorance of Catholicism for now. One thing, one place at time.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
What about an oscillating universe? Then the big bang is irrelevent. Why can’t that universe have God like properties?[/quote]

An oscillating universe? As in it goes through multiple big bangs?

[quote]orion wrote:
Nononono…

Obviously the universe has a cause whereas the “god” he introduces has not.

Pay attention.

[/quote]

Evidence in such theories as evolution and the big bang point to that the universe had a cause.

[quote]gorillavanilla wrote:
This entire argument is a straw house. All religions are just updated mythology that has been programmed in to the heads of countless infants for centuries. Not one iota of fact or truth exists to prove there is any deity, angel, or devil. The question of infinite regression is absurd and filled with the imagination of human creation in order to mollify the masses and win wars. One can praise their own imaginary deity to the end for the wonders done but it remains imagination. Grow up and know that what is is what is and what we create in fairy tails and myths should be kept for entertainment and lessons but not drummed in to our conscience until we are numb(joyous) with the unreality of a smoke trail based on religions predating current religions by hundreds and thousand of years.[/quote]

Your friends must call you a modern Aristotle.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You’re clueless Chris.[/quote]

I’m sure, this is the bane of arguing against fundi’s their theology changes as needs be, they have no stated creed. Why? Because they are their own Pope, they receive their own revelation from God himself.

Um, no. Not what I was talking about.

Here Karl Keating explains what I mean.

"The basic elements of fundamentalism were formulated almost exactly a century ago at the Princeton Theological Seminary in Princeton, New Jersey, by Benjamin B. Warfield, Charles Hodge, and their associates.6 What they produced became known as Princeton theology, and it appealed to conservative Protestants who were concerned with the Social Gospel movement. Between 1909 and 1915 the brothers Milton and Lyman Stewart, whose wealth came from oil, underwrote The Fundamentals, a series of twelve paperback books. The preface to the volumes explained their purpose: â??In 1909 God moved two Christian laymen to set aside a large sum of money [$300,000] for issuing twelve volumes that would set forth the fundamentals of the Christian faith, and which were to be sent free to ministers of the gospel, missionaries, Sunday school superintendents, and others engaged in aggressive Christian work throughout the English-speaking world.â?? Three million copies were distributed. Each volume contained seven or eight essays. Aside from studies of strictly doctrinal matters, there were attacks on modern biblical criticism, critiques of scientific theories, personal testimonies, commentaries on missionary work and evangelization, and accounts of heresies. The last category included essays on â??Catholicism: Is It Christian?â?? and â??Rome, the Antagonist of the Nationâ??.7 There were sixty-four contributors, including scholars such as C. I. Scofield, compiler of the Scofield Reference Bible; â??W. J. Eerdman and his son, Charles; H. C. G. Motile, Anglican bishop of Durham; James M. Gray, dean of the Moody Bible Institute; and Warfield himself. They included Presbyterian ministers, Methodist evangelists, editors of religious periodicals, professors, even an Egyptologist.8 As Edward Dobson, an associate pastor at Jerry Falwellâ??s Thomas Road Baptist Church, put it, â??They were certainly not anti-intellectual, snakehandling, cultic, obscurantist fanatics.â??9 The fundamentals identified in the series have been tallied variously, some listing as many as fourteen points. Most commentators agree on at least these five: (1) the inspiration and infallibility of Scripture; (2) the deity of Christ, including his Virgin Birth; (3) tire substitutionary atonement of his death; (4) his literal resurrection from the dead; and (5) his literal return in the Second Coming. Dobson writes, â??Although some have expanded this list to include such issues as a literal heaven and hell, soulwinning, a personal Satan, and the local church, nevertheless the doctrinal character of fundamentalism still centers around the five fundamentals listed.â??

The books were noticed by many who were unsympathetic to the views expressed in them. On May 22, 1922, Harry Emerson Fosdick, himself a theological liberal, preached on the subject â??Shall the Fundamentalists Win?â?? He used the title of the books to designate the people he was opposing, and the label stuck. He was not, though, the coiner of the word. That honor goes to Curtis Lee Law, who, in an editorial for the New York Watchman-Examiner of July 1, 1920, defined â??fundamentalistsâ?? as those â??who mean to do battle for the fundamentalsâ??.11"

I’ve been trying to, but when you won’t answer my questions…how am I supposed to know what you believe.

[quote]I will ignore your accusations of my ignorance of Catholicism for now. One thing, one place at time.
[/quote]

Why? You haven’t proved that you aren’t since I can remember.