A really good one. Also you perfectly summarized the problem with figuring out what actually works.
Let’s say you have a squat (or quad) plateau and you introduce front squats in to your program and get massive gains. But you also change the order of training days and you happen to do your back squats more fresh than you used to do. You also eat more protein since you’re done some changes to your diet and happen to have less stressful period going on in your life etc. etc.
Can you honestly say it’s the FS that helped you to break that plateau? The all conditions in us and around us are constantly shifting, and it’s really hard to pinpoint exactly what happens.
I remember Mike T saying that training is not like building and engine, it’s like growing a garden: you can change the conditions, but natural processes take the main role.
Well my statement was inspired by the frustration i get with dealing with the gentleman i mentioned above. It is kind of personal because I view him to a certain degree as a friend. I find it infuriating becase ive watched him spin his wheels now for a long time .
Now for clarfication … for anyone not aware im a Keep It Simple Stupid type of guy keep it basic and dont overthink the shit. This isnt rocket science.
But on the same token IMO one needs to use some common sense and be analytical to a degree. But obviously not to the point where a “paralysis by analysis” situation occurs . As RT rightfully mentioned which from what I have seen online is a very big issue with inexperienced guys.
For some reason im reminded of the last time i ever stepped foot in a commercial gym years ago . Which may or may not be relevant.
I was just perplex watching a younger guy alternating in a super set fashion between Db shrugs and Barbell shrugs. With me thinking , Why? And yes he looked like you probably expected with the expected strength level.
BUT…I digrees and getting off point.
Regarding the indvidual who prompted my original view point.
He is the type that will just find and use a routine based on exclusively on the appereance of the indvidual . Which lets be honest majority on here have done the same starting out. Of course many still do on here .. but in most cases many experience guys will make slight changes and modfication to suit them better. Will call it optimizing the program while still staying with the spirit of the origional program.
Unfortunately my buddy in question. After several years has yet to develope the knowledge of picking a program appropriately for himself nor has the ability to do simple tweaks. Which in this case comes down to taking time and just educating himself on the bare bone basics on the subject matter. Which isnt his fault since the indvidual he tends to follow arent about educating ( they arent actual coaches) but just selling programs.
Not sure if thats the perspective you was looking for…
@bulldog9899 I appreciate your thoughts! I totally get what you’re saying. I think, for me, if I had to err one way: I’d rather folks actually think/ question less and just do.
In your example, if someone is doing BB shrugs followed by DB… if they worked up to it being 405 x 20 + 125s x 20, they’d still have big traps.
I recognize I’m making a oft-disproven assumption that my hypothetical non-thinker will actually push their sets and add weight to the bar, but I guess we have to instill an expectation somewhere.
I believe we should approach those who are actually in the gym trying to improve their strength and/or strength as a huge positive.
Let’s help them build on their obvious initiative. Sure most make a multitude of mistakes. At least they are trying, though it doesn’t appear so many times to a trained eye.
Oh i agree… its once they cross into stupid territory i have issue with.
Need to clarify something…
My view point is say for a novice/beginner that yes there’s no need for them to dwell on anything nor does the programming needs to be complex. Come in do some form of progression with some basic things rinse and repeat. Plenty of time for overthinking and complexity once they reach a very advance stage.
When I decided to use “approach” it was a poor choice of words as it lacked the clarity I had intended. I was not intending to mean to actually walk up to them. I was intending more of a mind set concerning them. But clearly I blew that.
I was intending to get the message that we should maintain a positive attitude concerning people struggling to build muscle and not be quick to point out their mistakes with total lack of any compassion. They are in the gym to get results, though it might appear to the trained eye that they not not likely to accomplish much positive, at all.
I do hold to the reality that “unsolicited advice is seldom appreciated.”
@RT_Nomad I really appreciate your experience and was curious if there were any “fork in the road” moments when you were a younger guy that you look back on and appreciate it with the benifit of hindsight, or instances when you feel like you dodged a bullet with bad advice that seemed compelling but would have held you back.
Most of the decisions I made to achieve what I would say is my maximum physique compared to the competition occurred from the time I started lifting weights in 1968, until 1981, will seem obvious and not much help today. Stages:
1968 thru late 1970: I pretty much lifted weights as guided by a chart in the college weight room; plus some additions I found in Weider magazines. My primary focus was big chest, shoulders, and arms. I entered my first bodybuilding contest in November 1970. Just running for legs had pretty much been instrumental in my placing 15th out of 15 competitors.
1971 thru 1974: I saw Casey Viator guest pose at the November contest. He was the best built man I had ever seen. I heard that he was being trained by Arthur Jones. (It would have been nice to know that when Arthur Jones met Casey was at the 1970 Mr America and placed 3rd in the Mr America at the age of 18 with 19 5/16" arms!) Now I was on the quest of the holy grail of all things Nautilus. That would be the component that was missing. During this same time period were the Bench Press “Parties” and I was beginning to see my maximum bench press dropping when most of my chest training was pre-exhaustion style. I was still progressing yet no good enough yet to place in a bodybuilding contest (doing about 3 shows a year.) Now I am questioning Nautilus principles or my ability to do them correctly.
1975 thru 1977: During this time period I began to focus on powerlifting and competed in it, because I feel knowing there is a competition ahead keeps me accountable. Powerlifting is most likely the most important course change that I made. The foundation that powerlifting made in my physique helped improve my bodybuilding. In this time period I won three contests. They were lower level contests, but clearly things were coming together. By now I had totally given up on Nautilus principles and all the machines except the Pullover Machine (plate loaded.) I need to mention that my squat form was very inefficient, as I had yet to learn how to squat efficiently. It was definitely my poorest lift of the powerlifts. Through this stage I gradually transitioned into a six day spilt (Chest and Back Day, Leg Day, Shoulder and Arm Day.)
1978 thru 1981: In late 1977 I hurt my back moving a large box of books moving to a new apartment. That ended my ability to squat or deadlift, so now I was 100% bodybuilding. My training had settled into to what most all others with significant muscle were doing in sets and reps. Upper body were 8 rep sets, and lower body were 10 rep sets. Since 1971 I was cycling up to 15mg/day of Dianabol. In 1977 I added 100mg/wk of Deca with 20mg/day of Anavar. But in 1978 I started cycling AAS stacks whose foundation was 200mg/wk of Testosterone. That made a significant improvement in muscle mass. Also, I should add that heavy leg presses became the mass builder for my thighs, because I could not squat due to back pain.
I wouldn’t say I made errors in training, but would consider that my training evolved over my initial decade+. Information came to my peers and myself by word of mouth. And it came slowly. Today is very different as regards to information. We all have a huge amount of information at our finger tips, and we can easily compare our training methods to many programs that many people have used successfully. Today, we can better see where we might be making a mistake.
I visited Arthur Jones twice: Once at his home in Lake Helen, where the original Pullover machine sat on his porch. It had a very large cam. The last time at a place where there was some training equipment, I don’t recall what exactly except a pullup bar. He asked me to do his 60 second pullup, 30 seconds to complete the concentric and 30 seconds to complete the eccentric, which I did. That is the closest I got to Arthur Jones training me.
I met with Arthur Jones early in the Nautilus movement (1971 and 1972). I saw no other people on either visit that I can recall.