I think the free market is an excellent goal, but only that. Our government has to protect the consumer and the employee from the predatory nature of the capitalist. I already know what Hickey will say, he is entitled to his opinion
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I think the free market is an excellent goal, but only that. Our government has to protect the consumer and the employee from the predatory nature of the capitalist. I already know what Hickey will say, he is entitled to his opinion[/quote]
Capitalists are not some abstact evil, they are regular citizens, investors, consumers, and employees. We are hoping to protect one and other from ourselves. If you truely want to do that you protect, contracts, property rights, and freedom of association. You don’t let a group of self serving politicians arbitrarily, or for political favor, deside who is protected and from whom they are protected from.
Protection of consumers and employees certainly sounds like a noble cause but in invariably leads to more harm than good. Again, you have to ask your self at what cost. If you really do want best for the average american, you have to look past the obvious effects of legislation or protection. We only look at who will helped, not who will be harmed.
It’s not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of the best economic theory we have. A theory that has never been refuted successfully. There are several economists that lay this theory out in a very understandable format.
Those that are truely interested in economics have or will read them. Those that would rather follow politicians into economic suicide will not put in the time or effort to truely understand free market principals. They will claim failure of the free market without truely understanding what a free market is and can provide.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think the free market is an excellent goal, but only that. Our government has to protect the consumer and the employee from the predatory nature of the capitalist. I already know what Hickey will say, he is entitled to his opinion
Capitalists are not some abstact evil, they are regular citizens, investors, consumers, and employees. We are hoping to protect one and other from ourselves. If you truely want to do that you protect, contracts, property rights, and freedom of association. You don’t let a group of self serving politicians arbitrarily, or for political favor, deside who is protected and from whom they are protected from.
Protection of consumers and employees certainly sounds like a noble cause but in invariably leads to more harm than good. Again, you have to ask your self at what cost. If you really do want best for the average american, you have to look past the obvious effects of legislation or protection. We only look at who will helped, not who will be harmed.
It’s not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of the best economic theory we have. A theory that has never been refuted successfully. There are several economists that lay this theory out in a very understandable format.
Those that are truely interested in economics have or will read them. Those that would rather follow politicians into economic suicide will not put in the time or effort to truely understand free market principals. They will claim failure of the free market without truely understanding what a free market is and can provide.
[/quote]
There you go again, I did not say they were abstract evil, I said they were predatory; I know I have been in business for myself the majority of my adult life. I agree our politicians have not done a very good job protecting neither consumers nor employees. If you put the good of the market ahead of the good of the people you have failed the people
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I think the free market is an excellent goal, but only that. Our government has to protect the consumer and the employee from the predatory nature of the capitalist. I already know what Hickey will say, he is entitled to his opinion
Capitalists are not some abstact evil, they are regular citizens, investors, consumers, and employees. We are hoping to protect one and other from ourselves. If you truely want to do that you protect, contracts, property rights, and freedom of association. You don’t let a group of self serving politicians arbitrarily, or for political favor, deside who is protected and from whom they are protected from.
Protection of consumers and employees certainly sounds like a noble cause but in invariably leads to more harm than good. Again, you have to ask your self at what cost. If you really do want best for the average american, you have to look past the obvious effects of legislation or protection. We only look at who will helped, not who will be harmed.
It’s not really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of the best economic theory we have. A theory that has never been refuted successfully. There are several economists that lay this theory out in a very understandable format.
Those that are truely interested in economics have or will read them. Those that would rather follow politicians into economic suicide will not put in the time or effort to truely understand free market principals. They will claim failure of the free market without truely understanding what a free market is and can provide.
There you go again, I did not say they were abstract evil, I said they were predatory; I know I have been in business for myself the majority of my adult life. I agree our politicians have not done a very good job protecting neither consumers nor employees. If you put the good of the market ahead of the good of the people you have failed the people
[/quote]
The market is the people. What else could it be?
What happened to America?
Altruism has won. The idea that you can and should succeed without government is in full fledged retreat. The idea that you have to be forced to be your brother’s keeper, even if you don’t want to, has become the law of the land. The fact that accomplishment can now be plundered for the sake of the shiftless and incompetent is in process of becoming explicit law.
National socialism, the well being of the nation before the self, has triumphed.
But what are they forgetting? What essential element have all the statist scum like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi forgotten? The scum that voted for these creatures?
They have forgotten that they need YOUR cooperation to make their plans succeed. You desire TO LIVE. They propose to drain you, to use your desire to succeed as a hostage to their plans. They’ll ‘allow’ you to succeed as long as you pay them their vigorish, their payoff. The price that you have to pay to succeed in this country now requires blackmail, legalised blackmail of the human spirit. “Its just to help the little guy get his share of the American dream!”, they shriek in righteous indignation. “How dare you want to keep all that you earn!” they shout at you! All the while forgetting that YOU make all of their wars and Great Society programs, all their evil excrement, all the Social Security and Medicare programs possible. Theirs is the philosophy of death.
You don’t deserve to live, because you are good at it. You don’t need leeches or politicians who put leeches on you, so you must be drained and destroyed.
So, I say, to all who seek to live on the blood of others, all the politicians and all those who depend on them: May you all be damnned! May the God you invented forgive you.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
What happened to America?
Altruism has won. The idea that you can and should succeed without government is in full fledged retreat. The idea that you have to be forced to be your brother’s keeper, even if you don’t want to, has become the law of the land. The fact that accomplishment can now be plundered for the sake of the shiftless and incompetent is in process of becoming explicit law.
National socialism, the well being of the nation before the self, has triumphed.
But what are they forgetting? What essential element have all the statist scum like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi forgotten? The scum that voted for these creatures?
They have forgotten that they need YOUR cooperation to make their plans succeed. You desire TO LIVE. They propose to drain you, to use your desire to succeed as a hostage to their plans. They’ll ‘allow’ you to succeed as long as you pay them their vigorish, their payoff. The price that you have to pay to succeed in this country now requires blackmail, legalised blackmail of the human spirit. “Its just to help the little guy get his share of the American dream!”, they shriek in righteous indignation. “How dare you want to keep all that you earn!” they shout at you! All the while forgetting that YOU make all of their wars and Great Society programs, all their evil excrement, all the Social Security and Medicare programs possible. Theirs is the philosophy of death.
You don’t deserve to live, because you are good at it. You don’t need leeches or politicians who put leeches on you, so you must be drained and destroyed.
So, I say, to all who seek to live on the blood of others, all the politicians and all those who depend on them: May you all be damnned! May the God you invented forgive you. [/quote]
While I respectfully appreciate your point of view, I have to disagree. I feel the true amount of tax America faces goes to Corporations and the corrupt. I agree America has a lower socio economic class that is a tax on society, but it is not a drop in the bucket of what America?s financial problem consist of. I also believe if America can expand our middle class that we will shrink our lower economical class.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
What happened to America?
Altruism has won. The idea that you can and should succeed without government is in full fledged retreat. The idea that you have to be forced to be your brother’s keeper, even if you don’t want to, has become the law of the land. The fact that accomplishment can now be plundered for the sake of the shiftless and incompetent is in process of becoming explicit law.
National socialism, the well being of the nation before the self, has triumphed.
But what are they forgetting? What essential element have all the statist scum like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi forgotten? The scum that voted for these creatures?
They have forgotten that they need YOUR cooperation to make their plans succeed. You desire TO LIVE. They propose to drain you, to use your desire to succeed as a hostage to their plans. They’ll ‘allow’ you to succeed as long as you pay them their vigorish, their payoff. The price that you have to pay to succeed in this country now requires blackmail, legalised blackmail of the human spirit. “Its just to help the little guy get his share of the American dream!”, they shriek in righteous indignation. “How dare you want to keep all that you earn!” they shout at you! All the while forgetting that YOU make all of their wars and Great Society programs, all their evil excrement, all the Social Security and Medicare programs possible. Theirs is the philosophy of death.
You don’t deserve to live, because you are good at it. You don’t need leeches or politicians who put leeches on you, so you must be drained and destroyed.
So, I say, to all who seek to live on the blood of others, all the politicians and all those who depend on them: May you all be damnned! May the God you invented forgive you.
While I respectfully appreciate your point of view, I have to disagree. I feel the true amount of tax America faces goes to Corporations and the corrupt.
[/quote]
Have you look at a federal budget?
Sizing up different economic classes seems to me, an irrational obscesion. I read somewhere (sorry not more specific) about a study done from the late 70s to sometime in the 90s. The study claims that 4/5 (if i recall correctly) of people in the bottom 20% ended up in the top 20% with 6 years.
Now, while I don’t have any specifics of the study, it confirmed what I had always suspected. That economic class has more to do with where people were in their careers. I would bet that most of us started out in the bottom 20% of income earners. Nobody seems to have or use statistics that show % of people that stay below the poverty line for any length of time.
This aslo makes me wonder what effect baby boomers have on the percieve spread between rich and poor or lack of a middle class. Presumably the baby boomers are at the tail end of their careers and making more than they ever have. What effect do you think this has had on the income spread calculations over the years? I say there’s probably no real dissappearance of the middle class. The larger proprotion of income earners in the top 20% or the spread between the top and bottom is probably becuase of this large generation in their peak earnings phase. When they retire, more high paying jobs for the rest of us.
I would also point out that many of top income earners can fall towards the bottom. We always assume that those at the top, stay at the top. I say if this were the case we would certainly see the same names on the Forbes 400 list year after year and decade after decade.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
What happened to America?
Altruism has won. The idea that you can and should succeed without government is in full fledged retreat. The idea that you have to be forced to be your brother’s keeper, even if you don’t want to, has become the law of the land. The fact that accomplishment can now be plundered for the sake of the shiftless and incompetent is in process of becoming explicit law.
National socialism, the well being of the nation before the self, has triumphed.
But what are they forgetting? What essential element have all the statist scum like Obama, Reid, and Pelosi forgotten? The scum that voted for these creatures?
They have forgotten that they need YOUR cooperation to make their plans succeed. You desire TO LIVE. They propose to drain you, to use your desire to succeed as a hostage to their plans. They’ll ‘allow’ you to succeed as long as you pay them their vigorish, their payoff. The price that you have to pay to succeed in this country now requires blackmail, legalised blackmail of the human spirit. “Its just to help the little guy get his share of the American dream!”, they shriek in righteous indignation. “How dare you want to keep all that you earn!” they shout at you! All the while forgetting that YOU make all of their wars and Great Society programs, all their evil excrement, all the Social Security and Medicare programs possible. Theirs is the philosophy of death.
You don’t deserve to live, because you are good at it. You don’t need leeches or politicians who put leeches on you, so you must be drained and destroyed.
So, I say, to all who seek to live on the blood of others, all the politicians and all those who depend on them: May you all be damnned! May the God you invented forgive you.
While I respectfully appreciate your point of view, I have to disagree. I feel the true amount of tax America faces goes to Corporations and the corrupt.
Have you look at a federal budget?
I agree America has a lower socio economic class that is a tax on society, but it is not a drop in the bucket of what America?s financial problem consist of. I also believe if America can expand our middle class that we will shrink our lower economical class.
Sizing up different economic classes seems to me, an irrational obscesion. I read somewhere (sorry not more specific) about a study done from the late 70s to sometime in the 90s. The study claims that 4/5 (if i recall correctly) of people in the bottom 20% ended up in the top 20% with 6 years.
Now, while I don’t have any specifics of the study, it confirmed what I had always suspected. That economic class has more to do with where people were in their careers. I would bet that most of us started out in the bottom 20% of income earners. Nobody seems to have or use statistics that show % of people that stay below the poverty line for any length of time.
This aslo makes me wonder what effect baby boomers have on the percieve spread between rich and poor or lack of a middle class. Presumably the baby boomers are at the tail end of their careers and making more than they ever have. What effect do you think this has had on the income spread calculations over the years? I say there’s probably no real dissappearance of the middle class. The larger proprotion of income earners in the top 20% or the spread between the top and bottom is probably becuase of this large generation in their peak earnings phase. When they retire, more high paying jobs for the rest of us.
I would also point out that many of top income earners can fall towards the bottom. We always assume that those at the top, stay at the top. I say if this were the case we would certainly see the same names on the Forbes 400 list year after year and decade after decade.
[/quote]
Those studies need more specific and at least some link for verification. My contention is that America is going to hell because its middle class is vanishing. And its lower class is growing by leaps and bounds. America has to start making its money the old fashioned way by producing something. And not like we are now by shuffling paper and smoke and mirrors (meaning Banking)
Too many people are pushing for socialism in this country (e.g. our new President). It boils down to far too many people feeling entitled to things (e.g. a new car, a big house, vacations, etc.) versus what our grandparents did - EARN IT.
Socialism as failed repeated throughout history and it will fail here too. Socialism promotes laziness and punishes hardwork - how could it every be successful??
[quote]Dr_Razor wrote:
Too many people are pushing for socialism in this country (e.g. our new President). It boils down to far too many people feeling entitled to things (e.g. a new car, a big house, vacations, etc.) versus what our grandparents did - EARN IT.
Socialism as failed repeated throughout history and it will fail here too. Socialism promotes laziness and punishes hardwork - how could it every be successful??[/quote]
What is this Socialism ?
[quote]Dr_Razor wrote:
Too many people are pushing for socialism in this country (e.g. our new President). It boils down to far too many people feeling entitled to things (e.g. a new car, a big house, vacations, etc.) versus what our grandparents did - EARN IT.
Socialism as failed repeated throughout history and it will fail here too. Socialism promotes laziness and punishes hardwork - how could it every be successful??[/quote]
All those other guys just didn’t know how to do it right. We’ll show the world how well socialism can work.
I am beginning to think it is not about lifting the “poor” or “working class” up. I truly beleive it is about dragging those not in this class down.
Never mind that the poor in this country have luxuries and conveniences the very welthiest would have envied 100 years ago. Never mind they enjoy a quality of life most of the world would envy.
Someone else has more and that’s not acceptable. Liberals can’t be happy with what they have. They are eternally bothered by what others have.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Dr_Razor wrote:
Too many people are pushing for socialism in this country (e.g. our new President). It boils down to far too many people feeling entitled to things (e.g. a new car, a big house, vacations, etc.) versus what our grandparents did - EARN IT.
Socialism as failed repeated throughout history and it will fail here too. Socialism promotes laziness and punishes hardwork - how could it every be successful??
All those other guys just didn’t know how to do it right. We’ll show the world how well socialism can work.
I am beginning to think it is not about lifting the “poor” or “working class” up. I truly beleive it is about dragging those not in this class down.
Never mind that the poor in this country have luxuries and conveniences the very welthiest would have envied 100 years ago. Never mind they enjoy a quality of life most of the world would envy.
Someone else has more and that’s not acceptable. Liberals can’t be happy with what they have. They are eternally bothered by what others have.[/quote]
I do think the poor are the second biggest benefactor of goods made in third world countries first being the companies that do the manufacturing in those countries
Please explain your opinion of Socialism ?
Can a system based upon legalised blackmail, the idea that success requires that you pay ‘protection money’ to those who did NOT succeed, have any sort of future?
Holding a gun pointed at the productive and intelligent and expecting them to lead us into a peaceful golden age seems rather contradictory to me.
Just like the Roman Empire, this system will someday run out of victims to loot. The country will be bled dry. Then there won’t be much of anything for anyone. Those who profess to have the good of all Americans in mind while they pass ‘stimulus packages’ simply ruin everyone.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Charlemagne wrote:
What has happened to America? This used to be a country where if you worked hard and put your time in you could make a decent living and have a family. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Pretty soon there will be no more middle class. Nothing but peasants doing work for their wealthy business overlords.
This is a bit of a rant on my part due to my own situation. I am 26 years old, a Marine Iraq combat veteran, a college graduate who graduated Magna Cum Laude, I paid off my college tuition with the money saved from going to war…and yet the best job that I can get is still a heavy labor job that pays little and has few benefits. I can’t afford to live on my own, and can barely afford health insurance. I am trying, believe me I am trying to get a decent job, but there is little out there. I can’t even afford a girlfriend, much less a family. What happened?
Are you rich people on top so greedy and sociopathic that you must suck every little penny out of the working man’s pocket just to have continued growth? Is it necessary to outsource every single American job so that there is nothing left? Does the government exist to serve the people, or does it exist for the people to serve?
I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties make me sick. Politicians make me sick. Big businessmen make me sick. Special interest groups make me sick. The media makes me sick. You know what else? This country is beginning to make me sick.
Cutty: The game done changed.
Slim Charles: Game’s the same. Just got more fierce.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, but to put in simple terms to the OP- it’s always been like this.
This is politics, this is capitalism, this is being human. It is corrupt and sometimes vile and ridiculous. But it’s sure as hell entertaining.
Go back in history, and since the earliest incarnations of this country, you see this shit happening. It’s just people. Get down with it, and make your way through the shit. Ain’t nothing else you can do.
[/quote]
A mixed economy, a prelude to totalitarianism, turns most people into human rats. The 19th century is a fine example of how civilisation was throwing off the bonds of rat-dom. Then some rats got the idea of using altruism to get power and the downward spiral resumed.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Charlemagne wrote:
What has happened to America? This used to be a country where if you worked hard and put your time in you could make a decent living and have a family. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Pretty soon there will be no more middle class. Nothing but peasants doing work for their wealthy business overlords.
This is a bit of a rant on my part due to my own situation. I am 26 years old, a Marine Iraq combat veteran, a college graduate who graduated Magna Cum Laude, I paid off my college tuition with the money saved from going to war…and yet the best job that I can get is still a heavy labor job that pays little and has few benefits. I can’t afford to live on my own, and can barely afford health insurance. I am trying, believe me I am trying to get a decent job, but there is little out there. I can’t even afford a girlfriend, much less a family. What happened?
Are you rich people on top so greedy and sociopathic that you must suck every little penny out of the working man’s pocket just to have continued growth? Is it necessary to outsource every single American job so that there is nothing left? Does the government exist to serve the people, or does it exist for the people to serve?
I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties make me sick. Politicians make me sick. Big businessmen make me sick. Special interest groups make me sick. The media makes me sick. You know what else? This country is beginning to make me sick.
Cutty: The game done changed.
Slim Charles: Game’s the same. Just got more fierce.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, but to put in simple terms to the OP- it’s always been like this.
This is politics, this is capitalism, this is being human. It is corrupt and sometimes vile and ridiculous. But it’s sure as hell entertaining.
Go back in history, and since the earliest incarnations of this country, you see this shit happening. It’s just people. Get down with it, and make your way through the shit. Ain’t nothing else you can do.
A mixed economy, a prelude to totalitarianism, turns most people into human rats. The 19th century is a fine example of how civilisation was throwing off the bonds of rat-dom. Then some rats got the idea of using altruism to get power and the downward spiral resumed.
[/quote]
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Charlemagne wrote:
What has happened to America? This used to be a country where if you worked hard and put your time in you could make a decent living and have a family. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Pretty soon there will be no more middle class. Nothing but peasants doing work for their wealthy business overlords.
This is a bit of a rant on my part due to my own situation. I am 26 years old, a Marine Iraq combat veteran, a college graduate who graduated Magna Cum Laude, I paid off my college tuition with the money saved from going to war…and yet the best job that I can get is still a heavy labor job that pays little and has few benefits. I can’t afford to live on my own, and can barely afford health insurance. I am trying, believe me I am trying to get a decent job, but there is little out there. I can’t even afford a girlfriend, much less a family. What happened?
Are you rich people on top so greedy and sociopathic that you must suck every little penny out of the working man’s pocket just to have continued growth? Is it necessary to outsource every single American job so that there is nothing left? Does the government exist to serve the people, or does it exist for the people to serve?
I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties make me sick. Politicians make me sick. Big businessmen make me sick. Special interest groups make me sick. The media makes me sick. You know what else? This country is beginning to make me sick.
Cutty: The game done changed.
Slim Charles: Game’s the same. Just got more fierce.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, but to put in simple terms to the OP- it’s always been like this.
This is politics, this is capitalism, this is being human. It is corrupt and sometimes vile and ridiculous. But it’s sure as hell entertaining.
Go back in history, and since the earliest incarnations of this country, you see this shit happening. It’s just people. Get down with it, and make your way through the shit. Ain’t nothing else you can do.
A mixed economy, a prelude to totalitarianism, turns most people into human rats. The 19th century is a fine example of how civilisation was throwing off the bonds of rat-dom. Then some rats got the idea of using altruism to get power and the downward spiral resumed.
[/quote]
He is right. It would go too far why, but you can look into consequentialism and the almost necessary destruction of personal responsibility resulting from it.
Of course it gets quite hilarious when HH starts to argue like a consequentialist, for what would his “world policeman” be, if not an entity for which the end justifies the means?
[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Charlemagne wrote:
What has happened to America? This used to be a country where if you worked hard and put your time in you could make a decent living and have a family. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Pretty soon there will be no more middle class. Nothing but peasants doing work for their wealthy business overlords.
This is a bit of a rant on my part due to my own situation. I am 26 years old, a Marine Iraq combat veteran, a college graduate who graduated Magna Cum Laude, I paid off my college tuition with the money saved from going to war…and yet the best job that I can get is still a heavy labor job that pays little and has few benefits. I can’t afford to live on my own, and can barely afford health insurance. I am trying, believe me I am trying to get a decent job, but there is little out there. I can’t even afford a girlfriend, much less a family. What happened?
Are you rich people on top so greedy and sociopathic that you must suck every little penny out of the working man’s pocket just to have continued growth? Is it necessary to outsource every single American job so that there is nothing left? Does the government exist to serve the people, or does it exist for the people to serve?
I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties make me sick. Politicians make me sick. Big businessmen make me sick. Special interest groups make me sick. The media makes me sick. You know what else? This country is beginning to make me sick.
Cutty: The game done changed.
Slim Charles: Game’s the same. Just got more fierce.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, but to put in simple terms to the OP- it’s always been like this.
This is politics, this is capitalism, this is being human. It is corrupt and sometimes vile and ridiculous. But it’s sure as hell entertaining.
Go back in history, and since the earliest incarnations of this country, you see this shit happening. It’s just people. Get down with it, and make your way through the shit. Ain’t nothing else you can do.
A mixed economy, a prelude to totalitarianism, turns most people into human rats. The 19th century is a fine example of how civilisation was throwing off the bonds of rat-dom. Then some rats got the idea of using altruism to get power and the downward spiral resumed.
He is right. It would go too far why, but you can look into consequentialism and the almost necessary destruction of personal responsibility resulting from it.
Of course it gets quite hilarious when HH starts to argue like a consequentialist, for what would his “world policeman” be, if not an entity for which the end justifies the means?
[/quote]
May be altruism is not an answer in it?s self, but consequentialism seems too difficult to reliably predict an out come.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Charlemagne wrote:
What has happened to America? This used to be a country where if you worked hard and put your time in you could make a decent living and have a family. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Pretty soon there will be no more middle class. Nothing but peasants doing work for their wealthy business overlords.
This is a bit of a rant on my part due to my own situation. I am 26 years old, a Marine Iraq combat veteran, a college graduate who graduated Magna Cum Laude, I paid off my college tuition with the money saved from going to war…and yet the best job that I can get is still a heavy labor job that pays little and has few benefits. I can’t afford to live on my own, and can barely afford health insurance. I am trying, believe me I am trying to get a decent job, but there is little out there. I can’t even afford a girlfriend, much less a family. What happened?
Are you rich people on top so greedy and sociopathic that you must suck every little penny out of the working man’s pocket just to have continued growth? Is it necessary to outsource every single American job so that there is nothing left? Does the government exist to serve the people, or does it exist for the people to serve?
I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties make me sick. Politicians make me sick. Big businessmen make me sick. Special interest groups make me sick. The media makes me sick. You know what else? This country is beginning to make me sick.
Cutty: The game done changed.
Slim Charles: Game’s the same. Just got more fierce.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, but to put in simple terms to the OP- it’s always been like this.
This is politics, this is capitalism, this is being human. It is corrupt and sometimes vile and ridiculous. But it’s sure as hell entertaining.
Go back in history, and since the earliest incarnations of this country, you see this shit happening. It’s just people. Get down with it, and make your way through the shit. Ain’t nothing else you can do.
A mixed economy, a prelude to totalitarianism, turns most people into human rats. The 19th century is a fine example of how civilisation was throwing off the bonds of rat-dom. Then some rats got the idea of using altruism to get power and the downward spiral resumed.
He is right. It would go too far why, but you can look into consequentialism and the almost necessary destruction of personal responsibility resulting from it.
Of course it gets quite hilarious when HH starts to argue like a consequentialist, for what would his “world policeman” be, if not an entity for which the end justifies the means?
May be altruism is not an answer in it?s self, but consequentialism seems too difficult to reliably predict an out come.
[/quote]
Aha!
So the next time a politician argues that something is necessary for the greater good, the question that you should immediately ask yourself is this:
How does he know? Is this something a human being can know?
The thing is that he cannot know, but it makes for a great argument when it comes to subsidies, bailouts or any other redistributions of income.
Utilitarianism started out as a way to objectively measure how much “good” something would do. That was a brilliant idea that failed for reasons Bentham could not have foreseen, but it ended as the moral underpinning of “liberalism”, i.e as a secular religion.
The problem with altruism and this is what utilitarianism becomes if the numbers are large enough, postulates a moral duty to help others and to work for the greater good, even if, as you noticed yourself, no one knows how to measure this greater good.
If you think it through it even implies that other people have the moral duty to make you help others, at gunpoint if need be.
Altruism might be a great addition to influence the decisions of mature, fully developed adults, but politicians and governments need simpler rules, for obvious reasons.
Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, and so on.
[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Charlemagne wrote:
What has happened to America? This used to be a country where if you worked hard and put your time in you could make a decent living and have a family. Not anymore. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Pretty soon there will be no more middle class. Nothing but peasants doing work for their wealthy business overlords.
This is a bit of a rant on my part due to my own situation. I am 26 years old, a Marine Iraq combat veteran, a college graduate who graduated Magna Cum Laude, I paid off my college tuition with the money saved from going to war…and yet the best job that I can get is still a heavy labor job that pays little and has few benefits. I can’t afford to live on my own, and can barely afford health insurance. I am trying, believe me I am trying to get a decent job, but there is little out there. I can’t even afford a girlfriend, much less a family. What happened?
Are you rich people on top so greedy and sociopathic that you must suck every little penny out of the working man’s pocket just to have continued growth? Is it necessary to outsource every single American job so that there is nothing left? Does the government exist to serve the people, or does it exist for the people to serve?
I am not a Democrat or a Republican. Both parties make me sick. Politicians make me sick. Big businessmen make me sick. Special interest groups make me sick. The media makes me sick. You know what else? This country is beginning to make me sick.
Cutty: The game done changed.
Slim Charles: Game’s the same. Just got more fierce.
I didn’t read the rest of this thread, but to put in simple terms to the OP- it’s always been like this.
This is politics, this is capitalism, this is being human. It is corrupt and sometimes vile and ridiculous. But it’s sure as hell entertaining.
Go back in history, and since the earliest incarnations of this country, you see this shit happening. It’s just people. Get down with it, and make your way through the shit. Ain’t nothing else you can do.
A mixed economy, a prelude to totalitarianism, turns most people into human rats. The 19th century is a fine example of how civilisation was throwing off the bonds of rat-dom. Then some rats got the idea of using altruism to get power and the downward spiral resumed.
He is right. It would go too far why, but you can look into consequentialism and the almost necessary destruction of personal responsibility resulting from it.
Of course it gets quite hilarious when HH starts to argue like a consequentialist, for what would his “world policeman” be, if not an entity for which the end justifies the means?
May be altruism is not an answer in it?s self, but consequentialism seems too difficult to reliably predict an out come.
Aha!
So the next time a politician argues that something is necessary for the greater good, the question that you should immediately ask yourself is this:
How does he know? Is this something a human being can know?
The thing is that he cannot know, but it makes for a great argument when it comes to subsidies, bailouts or any other redistributions of income.
Utilitarianism started out as a way to objectively measure how much “good” something would do. That was a brilliant idea that failed for reasons Bentham could not have foreseen, but it ended as the moral underpinning of “liberalism”, i.e as a secular religion.
The problem with altruism and this is what utilitarianism becomes if the numbers are large enough, postulates a moral duty to help others and to work for the greater good, even if, as you noticed yourself, no one knows how to measure this greater good.
If you think it through it even implies that other people have the moral duty to make you help others, at gunpoint if need be.
Altruism might be a great addition to influence the decisions of mature, fully developed adults, but politicians and governments need simpler rules, for obvious reasons.
Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, and so on.
[/quote]
We agree on politicians or anyone for that matter that thinks they can predict the future, (even the climate). I personally do not feel a responsibility to the poor and the lazy, I personally feel taking care of the poor and lazy is a better alternative than not.
[quote]orion wrote:
Aha!
So the next time a politician argues that something is necessary for the greater good, the question that you should immediately ask yourself is this:
How does he know? Is this something a human being can know?
The thing is that he cannot know, but it makes for a great argument when it comes to subsidies, bailouts or any other redistributions of income.
Utilitarianism started out as a way to objectively measure how much “good” something would do. That was a brilliant idea that failed for reasons Bentham could not have foreseen, but it ended as the moral underpinning of “liberalism”, i.e as a secular religion.
The problem with altruism and this is what utilitarianism becomes if the numbers are large enough, postulates a moral duty to help others and to work for the greater good, even if, as you noticed yourself, no one knows how to measure this greater good.
If you think it through it even implies that other people have the moral duty to make you help others, at gunpoint if need be.
Altruism might be a great addition to influence the decisions of mature, fully developed adults, but politicians and governments need simpler rules, for obvious reasons.
Thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not murder, and so on.
[/quote]
Now that was an excellent post. How WOULD some ‘genius’ know what is the greatest good? Would it be a panel composed of philosopher-kings…kind of like the Politburo?