What Happened to America?

I simply believe that all people should be treated decently and that, if someone works hard, they should not be relegated to being a serf.

Wouldn’t everyone here be angry if they worked 44 hours and got paid for 40? Yes. Angry if threatened with termination for wanting paid for 44 hours? Yes.

If your wife had glowing reviews but, time after time, men got promoted over her? Yes.

Wal-Mart does a lot of this. Of course, these folks are free to change jobs but other companies start emulating Wally World to remain competitive. Now what?

To paraphrase Mr. Steinbeck: “The grapes of wrath are growing…swiftly growing…”

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I simply believe that all people should be treated decently and that, if someone works hard, they should not be relegated to being a serf.

Wouldn’t everyone here be angry if they worked 44 hours and got paid for 40? Yes. Angry if threatened with termination for wanting paid for 44 hours? Yes.

If your wife had glowing reviews but, time after time, men got promoted over her? Yes.

Wal-Mart does a lot of this. Of course, these folks are free to change jobs but other companies start emulating Wally World to remain competitive. Now what?

To paraphrase Mr. Steinbeck: “The grapes of wrath are growing…swiftly growing…”[/quote]

Bravo

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Mufasa wrote:
Sifu and HH:

Hope you didn’t get a Wal-Mart Gift Card for Christmas!

LOL!

Merry Christmas, guys!

Mufasa

Same to you and McCain lost…Sorry its the first time I’ve had a chance to talk to you and I wanted to say “I told you so”…Small of me… ha ha.[/quote]

Well, Mick!

SOUNDS like its time to start another thread, huh?

Mufasa

Alot of this thread sounds like a bunch of closeted liberalism. If one whines like a liberal, sits on their rear like a liberal, acts negative like a liberal, and thinks there is no hope like a liberal, hates evetyone else’s success like a liberal, they are a liberal, quite simply.

The only thing one can control is their actions. Don’t like something? Take action to change it. Do stuff like work harder, change the entitlement mentality, help others achieve their goals, fitness or otherwise.

I see a total lack of the understanding of how the economy and business operate. Ask anyone who goes into business. It’s to make profit, nothing more, nothing less.

No one goes into business to “provide jobs”, or “give back to the community”, or other goody 2 shoes liberalspeak. Whether it’s the landscaper and his pickup truck, or the super retailer. It’s the money, and it’s nothing evil about it.

Why is it when “everyone else” gets the money, or gets the built body, it’s somehow “wrong”? while, hey, when I get those things, “I worked hard for it and deserve it”??

[quote]wwwe wrote:
Alot of this thread sounds like a bunch of closeted liberalism. If one whines like a liberal, sits on their rear like a liberal, acts negative like a liberal, and thinks there is no hope like a liberal, hates evetyone else’s success like a liberal, they are a liberal, quite simply.

The only thing one can control is their actions. Don’t like something? Take action to change it. Do stuff like work harder, change the entitlement mentality, help others achieve their goals, fitness or otherwise.

I see a total lack of the understanding of how the economy and business operate. Ask anyone who goes into business. It’s to make profit, nothing more, nothing less.

No one goes into business to “provide jobs”, or “give back to the community”, or other goody 2 shoes liberalspeak. Whether it’s the landscaper and his pickup truck, or the super retailer. It’s the money, and it’s nothing evil about it.

Why is it when “everyone else” gets the money, or gets the built body, it’s somehow “wrong”? while, hey, when I get those things, “I worked hard for it and deserve it”??[/quote]

You see…therein lies the conflict: Capitalism conflicts with the morality that most people accept without question, altruism. You are supposed to be your brothers’ keeper, yet you fire/lay off your brother. You are supposed to help the poor, not demand that they pay their mortgage and utility bills. To educate yourself and climb out of a hole has little moral worth but to give all your money to the poor is somehow a noble and praiseworthy act.

A mixed economy is an attempt to serve these two interests (masters)…and we know what the Bible says about that. ;>

[quote]wwwe wrote:
Alot of this thread sounds like a bunch of closeted liberalism. If one whines like a liberal, sits on their rear like a liberal, acts negative like a liberal, and thinks there is no hope like a liberal, hates evetyone else’s success like a liberal, they are a liberal, quite simply.

The only thing one can control is their actions. Don’t like something? Take action to change it. Do stuff like work harder, change the entitlement mentality, help others achieve their goals, fitness or otherwise.

I see a total lack of the understanding of how the economy and business operate. Ask anyone who goes into business. It’s to make profit, nothing more, nothing less.

No one goes into business to “provide jobs”, or “give back to the community”, or other goody 2 shoes liberalspeak. Whether it’s the landscaper and his pickup truck, or the super retailer. It’s the money, and it’s nothing evil about it.

Why is it when “everyone else” gets the money, or gets the built body, it’s somehow “wrong”? while, hey, when I get those things, “I worked hard for it and deserve it”??[/quote]

People will always bitch about what they don’t have, and put down others that have gotten or achieved. People like to bitch and moan about how rich people don’t deserve thier wealth and they do because they feel as though they have done enough to deserve it while thinking that those damn rich people need to get a “real” job and know what it’s like to be like the rest of us.

When a man or woman achieves a physique with years of dedication and hard work, the couch potato will always find a way to demean them. “Oh, if he/she had a life, kids, no time to spend 3 hours a day in the gym, because of having to work for a living then he/she could never have that kind of body” or the wannabe at the gym with the 10lb dumbbell, tight wife beater showing off the 13in guns, $300 workout apparal would say “oh, that dude is on drugs, no way he could get that kind of body, no way! and if it weren’t for the drugs there is no way he could bench 400lbs, no way! It’s impossible! and he’s doing it all wrong, squats tear up the knees and dead lifts destroy the back, and he’s repping too fast but he is that big cause of drugs!”

Whenever I’m in a conversation or even around someone who bitches about how it’s unfair that people in charge or high up in a company get paid so much but don’t do the “real” work. I always ask, if you were in that position where you had to make decisions ranging from hours, hiring, delagating tasks, firing people, etc etc. They always say “hell yeah! easy!” and sure enough when those same people that actually do take that step in management, they don’t know what hit them and hate the responsiblity. Same goes for that wannabe gym warrior that only bitches about his/her shortcomings. Tell them to actually workout, add squats to their routine, push hard through their workout sessions like there was no tomorrow, eat properly, nine out of ten will go back to their usual way and go back to bitching about others success.

It seems the majority of people would rather be bitter about what they don’t have rather than appreciating what they have and can achieve themselves, if only they had the determination. So what if you have an $8 an hour job, you aren’t unemployed, and it’s paying for the roof over your head and the food you eat, it may be just barely making it but it’s better than being unemployed and living outside digging in the trash for food. And so what if your body isn’t nearly as great as the best physiques of your gym, try to become the best you can possibly be. Sorry for the preachy rant, being around lots of family and friends the past week had me surrounded with all this kind of talk.

So they are beter off having the position. +1 for Walmart

What’s our legal system for? I would say not for this but is most certainly has become. You don’t like it, don’t work there and don’t shop there. The rest of us obviously aren’t bothered by it enough not to work or shop there. So what’s the problem? The public has voted.

What happened to you? This is really bad. The Chinese girl is better off having the job and we are all better off having cheaper products. +2 for walmart.

Nope, the people that shop at Walmart, and not the mom and pop stores, crushed the mom and pop stores. How many people enjoy a better quality of life becuase of Walmart?

All the Chinese girls. If working on products sold at Walmart didn’t improve their lives, would they be doing it?

All the American Employees at Walmart. If working at Walmart wasn’t the best job available to them or that they were willing to do, would they be doing it?

Every person that shops at Walmart. Lower prices for the goods we need and want provides better quality of life.

Who’s quality of life has suffered?

The mom and pop store owners that can’t succesfully compete for customers. Maybe. Maybe they make more working for someone else.

The American manufacturing base that used to produce goods people could afford less of? maybe. maybe their talents are worth more in other areas?

Also, if we are buying goods and services from other countries, what currency are we paying them in? What happens to the money once we pay them?

If we send dollars overseas, those dollars (ultimately) can only be used for American goods and services.

If we pay them in Yen, we could have only aquired those Yen by selling American goods and services.

Free trade works. Economies of scale work. Anyone that argues the general quality of life is not increases by either of these, needs to try a book on basic economics.

You think its fine that someone works for 44 hours and is paid for 40? If they’re criminals in that regard, what other criminality are they doing?

To remain competitive, other businesses have to emulate Walmart. Do you want your employer to cheat you? And this of course simply means that more and more businesses do this which makes it harder for the working poor to find a decent employer who won’t rob them.

I realize its a cutthroat world and that those ‘above’ are supposed to rape the poor and helpless but behaving like a pack of hyenas at a kill? Are we not better than this?

No, probably not.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You think its fine that someone works for 44 hours and is paid for 40? If they’re criminals in that regard, what other criminality are they doing?

To remain competitive, other businesses have to emulate Walmart. Do you want your employer to cheat you? And this of course simply means that more and more businesses do this which makes it harder for the working poor to find a decent employer who won’t rob them.

I realize its a cutthroat world and that those ‘above’ are supposed to rape the poor and helpless but behaving like a pack of hyenas at a kill? Are we not better than this?

No, probably not.[/quote]

What is your suggestion? Regulation and labor laws have gone a long way towards combatting these and much worse practices throughout our history. (That’s not to say that the pendulum can’t swing too far in the other or that things like labor unions in this day don’t function as a roadblock to getting things done) But judging from many of your posts, it is exactly this type of ‘interference’ I’d think you’d be against.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
You think its fine that someone works for 44 hours and is paid for 40? If they’re criminals in that regard, what other criminality are they doing?
[/quote]

Well if they are breaking labor laws, they should be prosecuted. I personally think that it is up to the employer to decide what to pay and the employee to decide what to work for, but that’s not where we are at.

You don’t think you are being paid fairly, quit. No better alternatives, well I guess you are better off working 44 and getting paid for 40 if there are no better alternatives. That’s the free market. But again, we do have ridiculous labor laws in place and they should be enforced. Is it Walmart’s fault they are not being enfored?

The employer is not robbing them. The offer a wage and working conditions and the employee decides whether or not to accept this wage and working condition. Compare this to the other deductions in on you pay slip and tell me again who is robbing you.

Others can compete and pay twice as much as Walmart. The just need to consumers to pay more for their products or for people to refuse to work for Walmart. We, as consumers, cast a vote with every purchase we make. Obviously the American public has voted. The either have no problem with what Walmart is doing or don’t care.

Compare this to a a gov’t bailout most people opposed but still happened. Compare this to many gov’t programs or spending most would appose but still happens. The free market is the only place we truely have a vote.

[quote]
I realize its a cutthroat world and that those ‘above’ are supposed to rape the poor and helpless but behaving like a pack of hyenas at a kill? Are we not better than this?
No, probably not.[/quote]

How can it be rape if there is consent. Nobody is forced to work for any wage. The working man and consumer hold all of the power. If people decide not to shop at Walmart or not to work at Walmart, what happens to Walmart? What happens if the common man decides not to hold or run up the price on Walmart stock?

There is no one at the top running the economy. Well maybe the fed these days, but certainly not the evil corporations. Share holders, consumers, and employees run the market. We cast our votes every single day. The evil hyenas are at our mercy.

The working man holds little power aside from that achieved by organizations like unions (which have gotten out of control in many cases these days) and labor laws. Most of the workers at Walmart are stuck there in the conditions the company chooses to provide because they need a job. And have no bargaining power and must take it on the company’s terms.

Consumers DO hold power. But their interests are NOT aligned with workers. Consumers don’t particularly give a shit about the working conditions of Walmart employees unless they themselves are Walmart employees. They just want cheap products. Some would care about exploitation and be willing to accept more expensive products to end it. But not most. And most of those who would don’t make the connection between cheap products and the reasons the products are cheap (partially as a result of worker exploitation).

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

You don’t think you are being paid fairly, quit. No better alternatives, well I guess you are better off working 44 and getting paid for 40 if there are no better alternatives. That’s the free market. But again, we do have ridiculous labor laws in place and they should be enforced. Is it Walmart’s fault they are not being enfored?

To remain competitive, other businesses have to emulate Walmart. Do you want your employer to cheat you? And this of course simply means that more and more businesses do this which makes it harder for the working poor to find a decent employer who won’t rob them.

The employer is not robbing them. The offer a wage and working conditions and the employee decides whether or not to accept this wage and working condition. Compare this to the other deductions in on you pay slip and tell me again who is robbing you.

Others can compete and pay twice as much as Walmart. The just need to consumers to pay more for their products or for people to refuse to work for Walmart. We, as consumers, cast a vote with every purchase we make. Obviously the American public has voted. The either have no problem with what Walmart is doing or don’t care.

Compare this to a a gov’t bailout most people opposed but still happened. Compare this to many gov’t programs or spending most would appose but still happens. The free market is the only place we truely have a vote.

I realize its a cutthroat world and that those ‘above’ are supposed to rape the poor and helpless but behaving like a pack of hyenas at a kill? Are we not better than this?
No, probably not.

How can it be rape if there is consent. Nobody is forced to work for any wage. The working man and consumer hold all of the power. If people decide not to shop at Walmart or not to work at Walmart, what happens to Walmart? What happens if the common man decides not to hold or run up the price on Walmart stock?

There is no one at the top running the economy. Well maybe the fed these days, but certainly not the evil corporations. Share holders, consumers, and employees run the market. We cast our votes every single day. The evil hyenas are at our mercy.
[/quote]

Nope, not Walmart’s fault. They’ll get away with what they can. Fine the shit out of Walmart or enact whatever penalty is mandated under the law. Problem solved. Assuming they are found liable. I believe their are numerous lawsuits pending right now. Whether Walmart broke the law has yet to be decided.

Actually, it looks like Walmart has just agreed to pay up to $640 million to settle the lawsuits against it for labor violations.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
The working man holds little power aside from that achieved by organizations like unions (which have gotten out of control in many cases these days) and labor laws. Most of the workers at Walmart are stuck there in the conditions the company chooses to provide because they need a job. And have no bargaining power and must take it on the company’s terms.

Consumers DO hold power. But their interests are NOT aligned with workers. Consumers don’t particularly give a shit about the working conditions of Walmart employees unless they themselves are Walmart employees. They just want cheap products. Some would care about exploitation and be willing to accept more expensive products to end it. But not most. And most of those who would don’t make the connection between cheap products and the reasons the products are cheap (partially as a result of worker exploitation).[/quote]

Exactly.

Capitalism is truly the only ‘ism’ that has done genuine good for human societies. To establish monopolies in small towns across the country and then to cut corners as they do, to set up little fiefdoms, doesn’t bode well for the future of capitalism.

For other examples: every bank is somewhat more suspect because of the actions of a few mega-banks. Unions are scorned because of looter union leaders (past and present) like at UAW and Teamsters.

When we now think of capitalism, many will think of GM or Walmart. The future looks dark indeed.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
The working man holds little power aside from that achieved by organizations like unions (which have gotten out of control in many cases these days) and labor laws. Most of the workers at Walmart are stuck there in the conditions the company chooses to provide because they need a job. And have no bargaining power and must take it on the company’s terms.

Consumers DO hold power. But their interests are NOT aligned with workers. Consumers don’t particularly give a shit about the working conditions of Walmart employees unless they themselves are Walmart employees.

They just want cheap products. Some would care about exploitation and be willing to accept more expensive products to end it. But not most. And most of those who would don’t make the connection between cheap products and the reasons the products are cheap (partially as a result of worker exploitation).

Exactly. [/quote]

Yep, and walmart employees don’t care about wages or working conditions in the auto industry as long as they can get cheap cars. And auto workers don’t care about wages for migrant workers as long as they can get cheap produce.

Wow, what’s happening here? Cheap products and services offsetting relatively low wages. You raise wages and we all end up paying more, so what’s the point. The market will set the appropriat price or wage relative to other products and services. You raise wages and you have essentially raised the price of goods and service that wage will buy. This is all very basic economics.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Capitalism is truly the only ‘ism’ that has done genuine good for human societies. To establish monopolies in small towns across the country and then to cut corners as they do, to set up little fiefdoms, doesn’t bode well for the future of capitalism.
[/quote]
Bullshit. This is precisely the efficiency the free market brings us. How the hell can it be a fiefdom if they are providing us all with goods for cheaper than we would have paid in their abscense and jobs that would have been non-exsistant without them.

I travel through small town america in NE, IA, and KS for a living. I can tell you that a Walmart in a small town is a big deal. Most of the time the Walmart brings in many more people and services. I have seen small towns turn into not so small towns. New resturants, new hotels, new schools for growing population, etc. What am I missing here?

People throw around the word monopoly way too often. I have yet to see a monopoly in this country that wasn’t created by our ever vigilent gov’t. Walmart is far from a monopoly. I probably have 5 Walmarts within 10 miles of me and I can’t recall the last time I set foot in one of them.

I chose to use the local Target, Makenthune’s (local grocery and meat market), or the internet for my most frequent shopping needs.

[quote]
For other examples: every bank is somewhat more suspect because of the actions of a few mega-banks. Unions are scorned because of looter union leaders (past and present) like at UAW and Teamsters.

When we now think of capitalism, many will think of GM or Walmart. The future looks dark indeed.[/quote]

I guess you and I are talking about different capitalist systems. The debacle at GM and the banking industry is not a product of free market capitalism. Free market capitalism would have let consumers dictate the fate of GM and the banks. We would have had no market for suspect loans and no housing boom as a result of the cheap and easy loans to those that can’t pay them back. No rising housing prices, no housing speculation frenzy, no mortgage back security disaster.

We would have had no tax payer money funding the otherwise insolvant banks buying up other banks, and becoming even larger than their previous “too large to fail” status.

The free market does allow for booms and busts but not nearly as extreme or as long as our wonderful gov’t.

If consumers are willing to pay enough for or buy enough product from GM to sustain them, they go out of business. The people have spoken. What more can you ask for?

Same with Walmart. The people have spoken. We all cast our vote and we vote to enjoy the products they bring us and the increased quality of life more and cheaper products bring. What more can you ask for?

What we participate in now is far from free market capitalism. There are a few remnents. If I understand what you are arguing, you would like to get rid of these last remaining remnants. Correct me if I am mistaken.

I thought you were an Ayn Rand fan? She would disappointed.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
The working man holds little power aside from that achieved by organizations like unions (which have gotten out of control in many cases these days) and labor laws. Most of the workers at Walmart are stuck there in the conditions the company chooses to provide because they need a job. And have no bargaining power and must take it on the company’s terms.

Consumers DO hold power. But their interests are NOT aligned with workers. Consumers don’t particularly give a shit about the working conditions of Walmart employees unless they themselves are Walmart employees. They just want cheap products. Some would care about exploitation and be willing to accept more expensive products to end it.

But not most. And most of those who would don’t make the connection between cheap products and the reasons the products are cheap (partially as a result of worker exploitation).

Exactly.

Yep, and walmart employees don’t care about wages or working conditions in the auto industry as long as they can get cheap cars. And auto workers don’t care about wages for migrant workers as long as they can get cheap produce.

Wow, what’s happening here? Cheap products and services offsetting relatively low wages. You raise wages and we all end up paying more, so what’s the point. The market will set the appropriat price or wage relative to other products and services. You raise wages and you have essentially raised the price of goods and service that wage will buy. This is all very basic economics.[/quote]

No one is arguing otherwise. We should pay more. Labor laws are designed to ensure a very basic threshold of working conditions and fair labor treatment. It doesn’t mean being treated like a king.

No is saying a cashier or the guy who sweeps the floor should make a killing. They SHOULD get paid for hours worked. That is the right standard. And that is the law. If it results in an increase in the price of products, too bad.

Walmart tried to circumvent the law and are now saddled with a multi-million settlement (which, yes, probably will get passed along to consumers). Everyone would’ve probably been better off if they followed the law in the first place.

lol

[quote]jsbrook wrote:

No one is arguing otherwise. We should pay more. Labor laws are designed to ensure a very basic threshold of working conditions and fair labor treatment. It doesn’t mean being treated like a king.

No is saying a cashier or the guy who sweeps the floor should make a killing. They SHOULD get paid for hours worked. That is the right standard. And that is the law. If it results in an increase in the price of products, too bad.

Walmart tried to circumvent the law and are now saddled with a multi-million settlement (which, yes, probably will get passed along to consumers). Everyone would’ve probably been better off if they followed the law in the first place. [/quote]

You’ve a lot more patience than I have.