Again, the Prince stating “might consider” does not equal determined intent. Israel is also a significant part of the Saudi (as well as SW Asia more generally) nuclear equation, which you keep deflecting.
Ahmadinejad was hardly a luminous leader, regardless, he is no longer in power, so I’m not sure how that’s relevant. It’s akin to using the bellicosity of Bush to attack the Obama administration. Rouhani is a moderate and a reformer, in addition to being a shrewd statesmen, as evidenced by the Geneva interim nuclear agreement. He also acknowledges and condemns the Holocaust.
Really? The “majority of Palestinians are crazy genocidal fuckers?” Not only does belief find no credibility in the policy making world or academia, but it is patently racist.
Any reputable citations regarding the Twelvers ideological duty to systematically murder non-believers?
[quote]Bismark wrote:
Again, the Prince stating “might consider” does not equal determined intent. Israel is also a significant part of the Saudi (as well as SW Asia more generally) nuclear equation, which you keep deflecting.
[/quote]
If the Saudis were worried about Israel’s nuclear arsenal they would’ve gone nuclear already. They are concerned about Iran.
I didn’t say all Palestinians I said most.
In their own words:
‘On seeing the fulfillment of many of the signs promised in the traditions, a large number of unbelievers will turn towards Islam. Those who persist in their disbelief and wickedness shall be killed by the soldiers of the Mahdi. The only victorious government in the entire world will be that of Islam and people will devotedly endeavor to protect it. Islam will be the religion of everyone, and will enter all the nations of the world.’
‘The Mahdi will offer the religion of Islam to the Jews and the Christians; if they accept it they will be spared, otherwise they will be killed.’ - Ayatollah Ibrahim Amini, Al-Imam al-Mahdi, chapter 14
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Latvia defense minister accuses Russia of destabilizing through ‘professional provocateurs’
[/quote]
And now Putins special Tupolev is circling over Ladoga since he’s visiting the Valamo monastery and the district over the weekend. He has a datcha somewhere there, too. Well, the Putin corporation is still waiting and avoiding any decisive moves. I don’t know about Latvia, but as far as I know the majority of russians in eastern Estonia like to be a part of the russian cultural sphere, but prefer to live in Estonia.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Latvia defense minister accuses Russia of destabilizing through ‘professional provocateurs’
[/quote]
And now Putins special Tupolev is circling over Ladoga since he’s visiting the Valamo monastery and the district over the weekend. He has a datcha somewhere there, too. Well, the Putin corporation is still waiting and avoiding any decisive moves. I don’t know about Latvia, but as far as I know the majority of russians in eastern Estonia like to be a part of the russian cultural sphere, but prefer to live in Estonia.
E: Latvia and Lithuania have blocked russian state television:
[/quote]
Putin would have to be careful with Latvia considering its NATO membership and the fact that US 173rd airborne are now there. Same with Lithuania.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like about it. [/quote]
Some.
Many of the protestors, and probably most of the leaders, are the Uke version of fascists/ultra-nationalists ---- with a fair number of Black Hundreds types on the other side, but still fascists.
Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” – purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”
Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.
So it’s kind of Communists vs. Uke Nazis. vs. Uke-Russian Nazis.
Not that I expect the MSM to figure that out.
[/quote]
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but being of Ukrainian background I would liek to stick up for those guys. Yes Antisemitism does exist there but its worse in France and England. Also Jewish people had their “sotnia” aka a military company battling against the government in those riots. The first deaths were a Belarusian and an Armenian. This wasn’t as clear cut as ethnic Ukrainians vs ethnic Russians or however the media is portraying it. This is citizens of Ukraine Muslim,Christian and Jewish tired of corruption, tired of being held back from succeeding. Every nationality was represented in this. Also many groups that people are saying are neo Nazi’s simply are not. One Right Sector commonly known to be one of the most extreme in its political beliefs, is actually cleaning anti Semitic graffiti off Holocaust memorials, most likely put there by people against Ukraine joining E.U as they are the ones who are most xenophobic. Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda | Timothy Snyder | The New York Review of Books
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ukrainians want a more Western style government, the current Ukrainian government is like about it. [/quote]
Some.
Many of the protestors, and probably most of the leaders, are the Uke version of fascists/ultra-nationalists ---- with a fair number of Black Hundreds types on the other side, but still fascists.
Svoboda’s slogan is “Ukraine for the Ukrainians” – purposely copied from Hilter’s “Germany for the Germans.”
Bandera said the same thing. He wanted Ukraine made ethnically pure. Mass extermination followed to do so.
So it’s kind of Communists vs. Uke Nazis. vs. Uke-Russian Nazis.
Not that I expect the MSM to figure that out.
[/quote]
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but being of Ukrainian background I would liek to stick up for those guys. Yes Antisemitism does exist there but its worse in France and England. Also Jewish people had their “sotnia” aka a military company battling against the government in those riots. The first deaths were a Belarusian and an Armenian. This wasn’t as clear cut as ethnic Ukrainians vs ethnic Russians or however the media is portraying it. This is citizens of Ukraine Muslim,Christian and Jewish tired of corruption, tired of being held back from succeeding. Every nationality was represented in this. Also many groups that people are saying are neo Nazi’s simply are not. One Right Sector commonly known to be one of the most extreme in its political beliefs, is actually cleaning anti Semitic graffiti off Holocaust memorials, most likely put there by people against Ukraine joining E.U as they are the ones who are most xenophobic. http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2014/mar/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/[/quote]
It’s ethno-nationalist. The catalyst for the violence was Yanukovych signing the Ukrainian-Russian action plan on 17 December then it spiralled out of control when Putin invaded Crimea.
A column of 23 armoured personnel carriers supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles with Russian military plates crossed through a gap in barbed wire fence into Ukraine.
Several military transporters loaded with artillery and tanks? had also been spotted following the humanitarian convoy, which was being escorted by two military helicopters…
Its not ethno nationalist. Jews, Tartars, Russians, Ukrainians banded together against corruption and were sick of a bleak future. Only people stuck with the old Soviet mentality are against it. The acting president was Russian. Igor Kolomoisky,( governor of a region close to separatists) who happens to be Jewish is one of the leading supporters of Ukrainian unity and Ukraine joining up with E.U. These far right groups that Russian media were howling about, ended up getting less then 1.5% of the vote. The other far right group (Right Sector) is multi ethnic. There is Russians, Armenians, Tatars and Jewish people in it.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
Its not ethno nationalist. Jews, Tartars, Russians, Ukrainians banded together against corruption and were sick of a bleak future. Only people stuck with the old Soviet mentality are against it. The acting president was Russian. Igor Kolomoisky,( governor of a region close to separatists) who happens to be Jewish is one of the leading supporters of Ukrainian unity and Ukraine joining up with E.U. These far right groups that Russian media were howling about, ended up getting less then 1.5% of the vote. The other far right group (Right Sector) is multi ethnic. There is Russians, Armenians, Tatars and Jewish people in it.
[/quote]
The people with the “old Soviet mentality” are the ones who are “ethnically Russian” - see map.
So Russian people automatically vote Yanukovych? Donetsk is a region where the separatists are fighting, according to demographics its majority Ukrainian (historically used to be more before a genocide called the Holodomor). Donetsk Oblast - Wikipedia.
and that region has the largest Russian population, which is predominantly situated in the cities, in smaller towns and villages the people are Ukrainian, and counties have voted to link up with other oblasts to get out of the pro Russian conflict. Seriously dude, there is nothing your going to teach me about my parents country.
In fact there is not one region where ethnic Russians are the majority. Also you still have talked about how this is an ethnic nationalist uprising with Ukrainians all by themselves. I already pointed out the first deaths for a freer Ukrainian were non ethnic Ukrainians, but citizens of Ukraine. You don’t have to be ethnic Ukrainian to love the country of Ukraine.
There is patriotic Jews, Armenians, Greeks etc in fact the staunchest supporters of Ukraine happen to be Crimean Tartars. Ukraine has always been a country of many cultures and will continue to be so for years to come. Svoboda the group that was mentioned as saying “Ukraine for Ukrainians” got 1.16% of the vote. They are nobodies. Ukrainians of all nationalities have no time for any far right nationalism of any kind.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
In fact there is not one region where ethnic Russians are the majority. Also you still have talked about how this is an ethnic nationalist uprising with Ukrainians all by themselves. I already pointed out the first deaths for a freer Ukrainian were non ethnic Ukrainians, but citizens of Ukraine.
[/quote]
I never said you did. I think you misunderstand me. I use the term “ethno-nationalist” because ethnicity and nationalism are to some extent overlapping in nearly every conflict in human history. The other type of conflict is class conflict which also sometimes overlaps with ethnicity.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
In fact there is not one region where ethnic Russians are the majority. Also you still have talked about how this is an ethnic nationalist uprising with Ukrainians all by themselves. I already pointed out the first deaths for a freer Ukrainian were non ethnic Ukrainians, but citizens of Ukraine.
[/quote]
I never said you did. I think you misunderstand me. I use the term “ethno-nationalist” because ethnicity and nationalism are to some extent overlapping in nearly every conflict in human history. The other type of conflict is class conflict which also sometimes overlaps with ethnicity.
[/quote]
Indeed, nationalism has arguably been the most influential geopolitical force of the past two centuries of international politics. Because it is at its core concerned with “nations” (as opposed to states or nation states) , nationalism is inherently ethnic.
I still wouldn’t call this a nationalist revolution, the fact remains, there is multiple nationalities fighting on both sides. There is nationalists fighting but they are not the core of either movement. And it is not east vs west as you guys probably think either, there is plenty of people in the east who are sick of the ways things are doing what they can. What you guys see and read in the news is very far from reality over there.
[quote]edmontonalberta wrote:
In fact there is not one region where ethnic Russians are the majority. Also you still have talked about how this is an ethnic nationalist uprising with Ukrainians all by themselves. I already pointed out the first deaths for a freer Ukrainian were non ethnic Ukrainians, but citizens of Ukraine.
[/quote]
I never said you did. I think you misunderstand me. I use the term “ethno-nationalist” because ethnicity and nationalism are to some extent overlapping in nearly every conflict in human history. The other type of conflict is class conflict which also sometimes overlaps with ethnicity.
[/quote]
When you say that this revolution is “ethno-nationalist” it could only mean that this revolution is some kind of ethnic Ukrainian revolution. It has nothing to do with ethnic background, as for the most part Russians and Ukrainians are on both sides. Age is a huge gauge on which side people are choosing, generally the college going age people are pro European and pro Ukrainian unity, whereas the older people who grew up in the USSR, are more inclined to separation or unification with Russia. This is simply there was a piece of S*** of president, under whom corruption flourished and people wanted change, especially when he dashed a large vocal section of the population dreams of European integration.
When you say that this revolution is "ethno-nationalist" it could only mean that this revolution is some kind of ethnic Ukrainian revolution.
[/quote]
No it doesn’t mean that at all.
Again, you misunderstand. Take an example from history to illustrate my point:
The Maccabean revolt - Judean nationalists versus Hellenised Jews/Seleucids. There were Jews on both sides but it was an ethno-nationalist movement for the most part.
One of the defining features of Ukraine was the attempt to replace Ukrainian with Russian as the official language. There was an attempt to Russianise the culture.
When you say that this revolution is "ethno-nationalist" it could only mean that this revolution is some kind of ethnic Ukrainian revolution.
[/quote]
No it doesn’t mean that at all.
Again, you misunderstand. Take an example from history to illustrate my point:
The Maccabean revolt - Judean nationalists versus Hellenised Jews/Seleucids. There were Jews on both sides but it was an ethno-nationalist movement for the most part.
One of the defining features of Ukraine was the attempt to replace Ukrainian with Russian as the official language. There was an attempt to Russianise the culture.[/quote]
The central theme of ethnic nationalists is that “nations are defined by a shared heritage, which usually includes a common language, a common faith, and a common ethnic ancestry” This is the definition of ethnic nationalism. No one was rioting had a shared heritage other then being ex USSR citizens, all came from DIFFERENT ethnic ancestry. No one was rioting for freedom of the Ukrainian language, Russian was spoken at all of the speeches for the most part. No one had the same faith, you have Ukrainian Orthodox, Ukrainian Catholic, Russian Orthodox, Jewish, Muslim and a whole bunch of other ones.
Defining features of Ukraine? What? When? This instant? In this instant no. No one was rioting to preserve Ukrainian culture. There was not any attempt by the government to limit the use of Ukrainian language or to replace the culture with Russian. In fact there is signs in Kiev staying “we love Russians but hate Putin” Seriously go talk to some people from there.
Two different situations, that may have had similar results.
about it. [/quote]