What Do We Owe to Others?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

I like T. Nagel’s view of objectivity and reasons for actions. He says that we have reasons to help others. If we see someone in pain, then we should help them. His view is pretty in depth and fights nihilism, but I like his basic message.

Basically, if I’m sick and someone next to me is sicker, I have a moral duty to give them my medicine (even if I don’tknow them and have no interest in their well being from a relational point of view). I think our worldview is in a sad state when people more often than not are unwilling to sacrifice trivial shit to help others.

I’m advocating an ethical moderate standpoint. Extremists say you should give up everything you own to help those less fortunate if it’s not conducive to your basic survival. I’m saying that you should give up your blended frappucinos to help those in need.

For example, I just bought a ‘street newspaper’ off of some homeless guy who I see working hard every day around campus trying to sell nominal trinkets, etc to make money to eat. He’s not a junkie or alcoholic, he’s just a guy who wants food. It’s raining and I’m sure he’s cold. I didn’t give two shits about the paper, and I threw it away after skimming it for a second, but I bought it for 1 dollar. Now, I couldv’e just given him my dollar but I decided to take the paper and thank him, a) to help him out, and b) to show him that his work isn’t fruitless and encourage him to try more like he is doing.

You guys who fight altruism need to realize that it’s not the worst thing ever. You can be self interested and work hard while still giving to others. I liked Rand for a while but just recently have decided that her vehement opposition to altruism is a serious defect. I belive that if you have the means to help others in need, then you are morally obligatedd.

I’m still yet to read an argument opposing mine that isn’t based in speculation that it couldn’t work b/c…the gov’t wouldn’t give out money efficiently, etc. Not the point. The point is that we have a MORAL duty to those in need. If you disagree, do it via morality and not by the infrastructural difficulteis inherent in mandatory taxation. Talk about missing the fucking point. lol.

82

Two things.

  1. If you are making more money than others (not a huge amount) wouldn’t it be better to just SAVE your frappucino money to better prepare yourself for a time in the future so you never become part of the less fortunate group via uncontrolled job loss or something out of your control?

  2. The frappucino is obviously an analogy for small things you might spend money on that you don’t need. What determines these things? I assume most of us go to a gym which costs money and probably spend money on supplements (OP is a level 4 on this site). A majority of American’s may think those things are unnecessary. I would agree with them even though I have 2 gym memberships and spend at least $1000 a year on supps.

83

I don’t mind at all paying extra to help out my fellow man. Even the hard core libertarians are somewhat full of shit since they all draw the line somewhere…that is how much is my right to do whatever I want circumscribed by anothers right to do what they want. A truly free position of action would be not at all.

But I digress, the thing I really hate about entitlements is that the goddamn WIC voucher people always manage to get the fuck in front of me in the express lane of the grocery store. I believe it is a conspiracy between the universe and the store employees to put me behind these people every time in order to eventually get me to start berating them, which does only a bit of good since generally they speak little english…how do I know this? because there is a motherfucking book with pictures of stuff like what milk you can get for free since figuring out what the fuck milk is without a picture is apparently impossible.

These fuckers need their own line. One long line of stupid assholes that can’t count to fifteen, think that the organic milk that costs 4x as much in fact should get used for their vouchers etc etc.

Please god just give me a separate line at the grocery store for the people that aren’t paying with money or card.

84

[quote]hlss09 wrote:

PS what do you do for a living? I assume it’s something cool judging by your avatar lol. [/quote]

Well, apparently I am a part time ditch digger in Iowa and I live in my moms basement.

She cries herself to sleep each night.

Also, nothing is cool if you do it long enough.

85

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t mind at all paying extra to help out my fellow man. Even the hard core libertarians are somewhat full of shit since they all draw the line somewhere…that is how much is my right to do whatever I want circumscribed by anothers right to do what they want. A truly free position of action would be not at all.

[/quote]

Well someone who does not take the time and effort to look into someone else’s pretty coherent ideology really has no business claiming that someone else is full of shit.

Also, Matthew 7:3…

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I talked to a friend tonight about thsi. He said that we don’t owe anybody anything. He also said that nothing really matters from the point of view of the universe, and that everything we do is ultimately useless and unimportant. Turning a nihilist is harder than turning a lesbian.

87

Nah, it’s easy.
As soon as he start speaking about the “point of view of the universe”, call him a spiritualist pantheist, show him how he just surrendered his nihilist premises (and his pretension of rationality for that matter) and watch his head explode.

88

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
And BTW, who in this thread has a job that is so rock-solid that they CANNOT be fired/laid off? What happens when you can’t pay rent, are evicted, and homeless? This happens to ppl like us all the time.

Last night the protestors shut down the Port of Oakland. [/quote]

If i got fired or laid off I’d find work, gorcery stores are always hiring, so are fast food, gas stations, or hell, i’ll start a company or go back to fixing cars. The problem with these people who “cant get a job” isnt that they cant get a job, its they cant get the job they want… I dont care if I have to pick up garbage if it brings a check home, but thats the difference…

also, i think its funny your worried about people not having / finding jobs but your glad the occupy idiots shut down a port, you do realize that means product did not get off a ship and sent to where it needed to go, it means the truck driver who delivers the load didnt get paid, the dock workers are not getting paid, the guy who needs to sell the merchandise isnt selling it (not getting paid)… and you probably held up my Honda Insight which i have been waiting 3 months to get… grrrr…

:stuck_out_tongue:

89

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
DoubleDuce, I tried to make the point clear.

Guys, I’m not saying that money has to be taken via higher taxes, that’s just one way to enforce morality, which this guy’s dissertation was about. I’m extrapolating his point and saying that we have a moral duty to help others in need.

I’m not versed in politics or government infrastructure. I’m simply stating that we should help where we can.

And, I’m not saying that we should help people who are a burden. I specifically raised my hand while he was arguing his point and asked the same question as you DoubleDuce. I asked, “What about the freelaoders? Won’t this encourage free riders and promote laziness, etc?”

He responded that we don’t have the same moral obligations to a person who is in a bad state due to their own choices, such as drug addicts, lazy people, or people who embrace that sort of lifestyle. His argument is that we should help those in legitimate need.

@ everyone: I’m saying that we should MORALLY give more to others. I don’t mean to say that we have to be taxed more. I’m saying that people should voluntarily donate more.

The real argument in this thread is altruism vs. non-altruism. I think we have a duty to those in need. I respect the popular view (the one you are all taking), but I can’t morally justify it (at least for myself).

And lol, I’m not some college twat. I’ve worked hard jobs, I’ve worked 50 hour weeks, and I’ve supported myself at different times in my life. But yes, I understand why an older person with more problems and life experience would chalk this thread up as hippie bullshit haha.

And by god I am NOT a utilitarian. I think utilitarianism is one of the most dangerous moral systems

And lastly, the African children example is fine, but his argument (and I agree) is that we should help those in our own backyard. No doubt the kids in Africa are worse off than the poor here, but I’m saying that we should help the people we can in our own areas.

And guys, I think this is a problem with current ideologies. The seeming unwillingness fo pepole to help is frankly scary. I mean, is it REALLY so much to cut back a bit and help more, either with time or money? Honestly, are you people so valuable and SO important that you can’t cut back from luxuries (that we all take advantage of if we’re on this site more than likely) and give a bit more. Are you SO independent and unique that you cna’t help a suffering human?

I don’t think we’re born with a moral debt to those around us, but rather that we should give more.

And I’m not arguing it should be some ludicrous amount of giving either. In fact, a friend of mine was just shot by a rubber bullet in the Occupy Oakland riots 2 or 3 days ago (I live right around the corner). That’s drastic. I’m jjust saying to give more.

The idea of forcing taxes on people is my GSI’s point, namely that if something is morally justified than it is okay to make people do it. Like stopping slavery. Nobody wanted to (well, not nobody), but when people realized that it was morally right to stop it, they forced people to stop.

Cliffnotes: Everybody thinks they are too valuable and important to be bothered with those in need. If you worked hard, secured a good job, and plug away, I’m not saying you should be undermined and taken advantage of. I’m just saying that there are people who CAN"T get a job, becuase there aren’t enough jobs out there, they are a real victim of circumstances, etc.

Guys, I want you to all stop the internet gang up and truly think. Put yourselves away from your perspective and objectively think about your life if you are well off. No doubt you work hard. No doubt you have gotten where you are by doing the work. But, don’t you think that the people who are less fortunate by chance (not choice) deserve a little help. How could you justify buying a Lexus or parking your riches in a bank account where it will just be a number on paper instead of giving a fraction to those in need. How could you live with the suffering and hopelessness that’s going on all around us. People die of starvation and you can’t give 5% more out of your paychecks to help save lives, and creat a better world?

And please, no personal attacks. Like I said, I’ve had my fair share of ‘real world’ experiences, and I’m sure you guys are much more knowledgable, etc, but please let’s reserve that for some other time. [/quote]

There is a fine line between a freeloader and a person who no longer works hard enough to pull themselves up.

So you are proposing that we find out a person’s life story before we help them?

What if it was there own decisions that put them into a place they no longer have the ability to get out of?

But if you actually owe someone, it really means they have the moral right to collect. For example I owe money on my house, so the bank has the right to collect money from me. A person being poor doesn’t give them the right to collect from anyone else, so I’d say we don’t owe.

We certainly should help if we can, but being poor doesn’t mean anyone owes you (unless someone did something bad to make you poor).

90

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
I just attended a lecture by one of my GSIs (graduate student instructors). He talked about a lot of things, but mainly about how EVERYBODY who makes enough money to live comfortably should give a much more substantial percentage of their money to help others.

He mentioned that he estimates that a basic necessity (in this country) is around 20,000 dollars. That’s low honetly. But, regardless, he said that anybody who does not make 20,000 dollars should be helped. We should institutionally tax people more in order to help these people.

I can already hear the uproar! I felt the same way until I heard more of his argument. He talked less about the how and more about the why of the issue. Instead of who should receive the money, how we could implement higher taxes, etc…he talked about our moral duty to others. He borught up a lot of good points.

His first example brought up how ~25,000 kids die EVERY DAY from things that are easily preventable, such as diarrheal infections, etc. He said that a 15 cent drink packet could cure this kind of sickness and save lives. He then asked how we can justify spending 3 dollars on a latte when 15 cents would SAVE a life?

Now, I’m usually oppose to bleeding heart liberal mumbo jumbo. Every college student out here loves to get on a soapbox and preach for equality, yap yap yap. But, he really did make a good point. He is not arguing that we should give up the things we enjoy, or even all of our excesses. He just says that if, for example, you make 100,000 a year and live comfortably, then maybe you should be taxed more (taxed being equivalent to charitable donations).

Maybe instead of the ~15,000 you’d be taxed now, you should be taxed ~30,000. Yes, that sucks. But if you think about how your cutting out some things strategically (like trips to starbucks when you can brew your own coffee, or perhaps a cheaper car), then how can you really deny that this argument holds weight?

I’m going to look into ways to help in my own way. I don’t think that after what I heard that I could justify inaction. I’m not talking about throwing bottles at Wall Street investors, but rather donating a few dollars to organizations that I look into, or volunteering to help people.

After all, if you’re priveleged then it seems that you have a duty to help people who are less privileged. Namely, because nobody chooses to be born to a poor family, or born to a drug addicted mother, or to be born into a life in which you HAVE to work and can’t go to school.

Obviously my point of view lies in the message, but I’d like to hear what you guys think. Not so much about the problems of institutionalizing taxation at a higher rate, but instead of the moral duty we do (or don’t) have to others.
[/quote]
Giving money to the government equals feeling poor kids…Horse shit.
I am all for giving to charity and I believe everyone with means should give to charity. Or you can even do some work your self. Government mandated charity isn’t charity.

People should be generous, but it should never ever be mandated.

91

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t mind at all paying extra to help out my fellow man. Even the hard core libertarians are somewhat full of shit since they all draw the line somewhere…that is how much is my right to do whatever I want circumscribed by anothers right to do what they want. A truly free position of action would be not at all.

[/quote]

Well someone who does not take the time and effort to look into someone else’s pretty coherent ideology really has no business claiming that someone else is full of shit.

Also, Matthew 7:3…[/quote]

Did you just post a bible verse to support a point? Holy shit they’re right! The world is going to end. Better go run up some credit card bills.

92

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t mind at all paying extra to help out my fellow man. Even the hard core libertarians are somewhat full of shit since they all draw the line somewhere…that is how much is my right to do whatever I want circumscribed by anothers right to do what they want. A truly free position of action would be not at all.

[/quote]

Well someone who does not take the time and effort to look into someone else’s pretty coherent ideology really has no business claiming that someone else is full of shit.

Also, Matthew 7:3…[/quote]

Did you just post a bible verse to support a point? Holy shit they’re right! The world is going to end. Better go run up some credit card bills.[/quote]

<---- Still thinks he can talk is way out of this whole rapture deal and is practicing.

93

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t mind at all paying extra to help out my fellow man. Even the hard core libertarians are somewhat full of shit since they all draw the line somewhere…that is how much is my right to do whatever I want circumscribed by anothers right to do what they want. A truly free position of action would be not at all.

But I digress, the thing I really hate about entitlements is that the goddamn WIC voucher people always manage to get the fuck in front of me in the express lane of the grocery store. I believe it is a conspiracy between the universe and the store employees to put me behind these people every time in order to eventually get me to start berating them, which does only a bit of good since generally they speak little english…how do I know this? because there is a motherfucking book with pictures of stuff like what milk you can get for free since figuring out what the fuck milk is without a picture is apparently impossible.

These fuckers need their own line. One long line of stupid assholes that can’t count to fifteen, think that the organic milk that costs 4x as much in fact should get used for their vouchers etc etc.

Please god just give me a separate line at the grocery store for the people that aren’t paying with money or card.[/quote]

Sweet, holy watermelon Batman…THIS ^^^^

94

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t mind at all paying extra to help out my fellow man. Even the hard core libertarians are somewhat full of shit since they all draw the line somewhere…that is how much is my right to do whatever I want circumscribed by anothers right to do what they want. A truly free position of action would be not at all.

But I digress, the thing I really hate about entitlements is that the goddamn WIC voucher people always manage to get the fuck in front of me in the express lane of the grocery store. I believe it is a conspiracy between the universe and the store employees to put me behind these people every time in order to eventually get me to start berating them, which does only a bit of good since generally they speak little english…how do I know this? because there is a motherfucking book with pictures of stuff like what milk you can get for free since figuring out what the fuck milk is without a picture is apparently impossible.

These fuckers need their own line. One long line of stupid assholes that can’t count to fifteen, think that the organic milk that costs 4x as much in fact should get used for their vouchers etc etc.

Please god just give me a separate line at the grocery store for the people that aren’t paying with money or card.[/quote]

Sweet, holy watermelon Batman…THIS ^^^[1]

Aren’t the pictures put there so they can know which brand/type of food product they can get. I would rather have a picture of the cheese instead of description/name that I then have to search for among the dozens of brands.

  1. /quote ↩︎

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OP, I only read the first couple of posts, and this is a bit of a hijack, but I have to get this off my chest.

Almost always, the cost of these programs are vastly underestimated.

15 cents to help a child avoid diarhhea? Only if it doesn’t take into account logistics, cultural issues, among other things.

Try getting that medication into or through a warlords’ territory, or that of a unfriendly government. Try to distribute the needed materials in a fair and equitable manner without having the right infrastructure in place. Try and educate the people on the proper way to use the medication, or convince them that it is not in fact a plot by the CIA to make them sick. Try and override cultural practices or teachings that go back centuries.

Some of these obstacles exist even in North America.

96

^ Cool story bro. JK, don’t want to be a dick.

You guys are truly missing the point. Unless you are a nihilist who thinks there’s no reason for anything, then we can think along these lines: Do we have a moral duty to help others?

NOT do we legally have to. NOT the logistics and difficulties in mandatory help. NONE of that. Just the simple, simple, simple question of whether or not we have a moral duty to help others.

My god sometimes I feel like shooting myself in the face after reading pages upon pages of ppl completely missing the point. sweet mother of pearl.

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[quote]hlss09 wrote:

My god sometimes I feel like shooting myself in the face after reading pages upon pages of ppl completely missing the point. sweet mother of pearl. [/quote]

Mwuahahahahaha…

98

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
^ Cool story bro. JK, don’t want to be a dick.

You guys are truly missing the point. Unless you are a nihilist who thinks there’s no reason for anything, then we can think along these lines: Do we have a moral duty to help others?

NOT do we legally have to. NOT the logistics and difficulties in mandatory help. NONE of that. Just the simple, simple, simple question of whether or not we have a moral duty to help others.

My god sometimes I feel like shooting myself in the face after reading pages upon pages of ppl completely missing the point. sweet mother of pearl. [/quote]

No, I only look after myself and my family.

99

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
^ Cool story bro. JK, don’t want to be a dick.

You guys are truly missing the point. Unless you are a nihilist who thinks there’s no reason for anything, then we can think along these lines: Do we have a moral duty to help others?

NOT do we legally have to. NOT the logistics and difficulties in mandatory help. NONE of that. Just the simple, simple, simple question of whether or not we have a moral duty to help others.

My god sometimes I feel like shooting myself in the face after reading pages upon pages of ppl completely missing the point. sweet mother of pearl. [/quote]

You aren’t the first person to ever ask this question. Putting it into practice is a whole different ballgame though.

The real question isn’t do we have a duty to help, but how much and how?

Everyone has different means available to them, be it time, money, or expertise. I have more money than some, but not others. How much should I be expected to contribute, and why?

And as to my previous post, different people and different groups have different requirements for that help to be effective. As I said, the true cost of that 15 cent medicine may actually be two or three dollars, and ultimately may not be worth shit if most of those kids die of malaria, polio, aids, famine, parasites, thirst, etc. Blindly throwing resources at a problem does as much good as buying a three dollar cup of coffee.

100

Somewhat related:

The OWS focus on money and economics only exposes the poverty of its quasi-Marxist critique. Equality has more than one dimension. William Niskanen, who died last week, once invited us to consider two young men: “One . . . is healthy and handsome, spends his days on the beach, has his pick of young women companions, and makes $10,000 a year. Another . . . is confined to a wheelchair, has congenital body odor, has never had an intimate relationship, and, with no other life, makes $100,000 a year as an expert computer programmer. In this case, who is worse off? Who should redistribute what to whom and how?”

SMBH disclaimer: If you are a pussy dont click that link. Go away… >