What Do We Owe to Others?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

How so? Do people intentionally seek out infectious diseases or something?[/quote]

Is this a serious question? Have you seen, for example, the obesity epidemic in this country? And the compouding of the problem because people think that pills or procedures will resolve all of the issues that are caused by it, as opposed to preventive health care on the front end, i.e., eating better and exercising?
[/quote]

This has much more to do with culture than with healthcare. There are many countries with single payer healthcare with lower rates of obesity than the US.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
That is the difference between the free market system and this piece of shit socialist democratic system.

And get this, our crime rate is low, our taxes are low and people say hi and help each other out. [/quote]

No. It is the difference between small closely knit communities and large cities.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
and being sedentary in both work.
[/quote]

In which the employee is given little choice.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
isn’t a result of being “victimized” by external forces and evildoers
[/quote]

I have removed the “in the fast food industry” because you are spot on. However, obesity is often a result of being victimized by external forces and evildoers. So much stress at work? Eating makes you feel better. Having trouble keeping a roof over your families head? Eating makes you feel better. Wife was cheating on you and divorced you? Eating makes you feel better.

Obesity is a sign of a troubled society rather than a lazy one.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
…removing their responsibility to pay for it is the problem primarily driving the moral hazard aspect of it, as is the case with all insurance mechanisms.
[/quote]

If insurance in general is the problem then how do we fix it? Outlaw health insurance?

But I think the real problem is the almost immediate positive reward and then very slow (years) negative reward feedback loop.

To explain what I mean I will use heavy drinking as an example. Most people I know who drink heavily feel great while they are drinking but then feel horrible the morning after. If they felt horrible as they started the beer that would push them over the edge into “too much alcohol” then they would almost immediately stop. But because the negatives are just 1 day later people tend to ignore them.

What we need are better feedback loops. One approach is to show our contempt for people when they eat really unhealthy amounts/types of food. So if you go to kfc with your friend and he orders a bucket of 20 chicken drumsticks and a large bottle of coke you should stop talking to him that day and sit away from him. Presto, now we have a quick feedback loop.

And this used to happen. I think because when there was less food to go around you were considered a huge asshole for eating so much around people who could barely afford to eat a little. But now it is “mean”! And we can’t be mean or someone might have their feelings hurt. :S

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And, just to finalize it, everything you have argued for is fine, as far as it goes - pleas for “universal” health care are common. But let’s call it what it is - a form of wealth distribution. People get care - that isn’t the problem. What you want is for other people to pay for it.[/quote]

There would be wealth distribution but it isn’t really the point. The problem is health care costs in the US are rising much faster than they are in other countries.

Part of the reason is many people lack insurance but can still get care. And when the hospital gives them the bill they say they can’t pay (and they really can’t). So the hospital has to recoup these costs from the paying customers. There is no real way to avoid wealth redistribution unless those who cannot afford it are denied care.

And denying people care when their life is in danger causes its own problems. Big problems.

[quote]phaethon wrote:
Part of the reason is many people lack insurance but can still get care. And when the hospital gives them the bill they say they can’t pay (and they really can’t). So the hospital has to recoup these costs from the paying customers. There is no real way to avoid wealth redistribution unless those who cannot afford it are denied care.

And denying people care when their life is in danger causes its own problems. Big problems.[/quote]

This.

That is their fault, they are personally responsible to get insurance. You can get catastrophic coverage for about $50 a month.

The problem with Health Care is government intrusion. Why can’t insurance companies do business nationally? The Government.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

…obesity is often a result of being victimized by external forces and evildoers…

[/quote]

Oh my, I couldn’t pass this one up.
[/quote]

Gasp! Its almost like people act in predictable patterns when faced with particular circumstances (i.e. offering low cost, calorically dense, nutritionally vapid, good tasting “food” results in obesity).

But its “just willpower”, right? Do the countries where Western diets are introduced suddenly plump up because they (completely coincidently) happen to “lose responsibility” at the same time?

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:
Part of the reason is many people lack insurance but can still get care. And when the hospital gives them the bill they say they can’t pay (and they really can’t). So the hospital has to recoup these costs from the paying customers. There is no real way to avoid wealth redistribution unless those who cannot afford it are denied care.

And denying people care when their life is in danger causes its own problems. Big problems.[/quote]

This.[/quote]

What are the problems? from your viewpoint.

I hold the viewpoint that as a service provider they should be able to deny care for anything but actual acute emergency care, based on ability to pay. It is a service, so why should other’s be forced to pay double because you won’t pay for yours.

And things like extended life support, yes if the family can afford to pay, but it is expensive and other’s should not be forced to pick up that tab. Or that fact that as you get older if we do lots of procedures and give you lot’s of med’s it will add another 6 months. That is not someone elses financial burden to carry. If you can afford to pay it then by all means, but don’t expect others to.

But hell, for some reason people think every should be subsidized by the tax payer or the productive now.

No that breeds a lack of accountability and responsibility in our actions.

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
That is the difference between the free market system and this piece of shit socialist democratic system.

And get this, our crime rate is low, our taxes are low and people say hi and help each other out. [/quote]

No. It is the difference between small closely knit communities and large cities.[/quote]

Exactly, community, not government, usually is successful because it operates using more free market type principals, the big failures we call big cities, generally operate by redistribution of wealth and need to use the force of government to extort property from the productive in order to stay afloat, but eventually they fail, when they no longer have people to extort. Which usually happens when the benefits of the large consumer base or salary from the inflated economy is no longer more profitable then the theft.

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
and being sedentary in both work.
[/quote]

In which the employee is given little choice.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
isn’t a result of being “victimized” by external forces and evildoers
[/quote]

I have removed the “in the fast food industry” because you are spot on. However, obesity is often a result of being victimized by external forces and evildoers. So much stress at work? Eating makes you feel better. Having trouble keeping a roof over your families head? Eating makes you feel better. Wife was cheating on you and divorced you? Eating makes you feel better.

Obesity is a sign of a troubled society rather than a lazy one.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
…removing their responsibility to pay for it is the problem primarily driving the moral hazard aspect of it, as is the case with all insurance mechanisms.
[/quote]

If insurance in general is the problem then how do we fix it? Outlaw health insurance?

But I think the real problem is the almost immediate positive reward and then very slow (years) negative reward feedback loop.

To explain what I mean I will use heavy drinking as an example. Most people I know who drink heavily feel great while they are drinking but then feel horrible the morning after. If they felt horrible as they started the beer that would push them over the edge into “too much alcohol” then they would almost immediately stop. But because the negatives are just 1 day later people tend to ignore them.

What we need are better feedback loops. One approach is to show our contempt for people when they eat really unhealthy amounts/types of food. So if you go to kfc with your friend and he orders a bucket of 20 chicken drumsticks and a large bottle of coke you should stop talking to him that day and sit away from him. Presto, now we have a quick feedback loop.

And this used to happen. I think because when there was less food to go around you were considered a huge asshole for eating so much around people who could barely afford to eat a little. But now it is “mean”! And we can’t be mean or someone might have their feelings hurt. :S

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
And, just to finalize it, everything you have argued for is fine, as far as it goes - pleas for “universal” health care are common. But let’s call it what it is - a form of wealth distribution. People get care - that isn’t the problem. What you want is for other people to pay for it.[/quote]

There would be wealth distribution but it isn’t really the point. The problem is health care costs in the US are rising much faster than they are in other countries.

Part of the reason is many people lack insurance but can still get care. And when the hospital gives them the bill they say they can’t pay (and they really can’t). So the hospital has to recoup these costs from the paying customers. There is no real way to avoid wealth redistribution unless those who cannot afford it are denied care.

And denying people care when their life is in danger causes its own problems. Big problems.[/quote]

No you are being idiotic, for the sake of sanity I hope you are being sarcastic. Sorry but because some people are to pathetic to understand the difference between instant gratification and delayed gratifications, because they have no responsibility in their life and act on impulses they know are going to be detrimental in the end, does not make it our responsibility to pay for their self indulgent lifestyle.

Seriously that is the most moronic argument I have ever heard, I hope you are being sarcastic and I am just not picking up on it.

By your argument we can’t hold serial killers accountable, because at the time it feels good and they don’ think about the consequences.

(Speaking of myself personally)
Why would i work to put myself through college?
To get a good job to pay for all of the things i WANT out of life. Literally all we need to survive is food, water, and shelter. We work for the things we want. If i wanted to buy a house full of things that i don’t need with a garage full of other things i don’t need I feel like i deserve it. I’ve worked hard enough to put myself in the position I’m in today. I agree there are many people who need help that can’t make it on their own that’s why were taxed the money were taxed to help them. It’s the others that need the help that’s so spoiled to the government’s help they would rather not work. Why would they the government gives them all they NEED. There are generation after generation living this way and continue to have children because that ensures more money their way. The system is abused so badly it makes me feel like i give PLENTY.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Exactly, community, not government, usually is successful because it operates using more free market type principals[/quote]

What the hell? It has nothing to do with “free market type principals”. It has everything to do with the size of the community.

There is nothing in “free market type principals” that will stop a big city from having a lot of crime. For making people living in a big city want to talk to their neighbors. etc.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:No you are being idiotic, for the sake of sanity I hope you are being sarcastic. Sorry but because some people are to pathetic to understand the difference between instant gratification and delayed gratifications
[/quote]

Ah buddy, they understand the difference.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
because they have no responsibility in their life
[/quote]

Again, not at all true. There are many fat people with a damn sight more responsibility than you.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Seriously that is the most moronic argument I have ever heard, I hope you are being sarcastic and I am just not picking up on it.
[/quote]

Well you seem to lack a basic understanding of people and social interactions. Not to mention I don’t think you even understand my argument. I was being sarcastic with these two sentences “But now it is “mean”! And we can’t be mean or someone might have their feelings hurt. :S”. All the rest was completely serious.

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
By your argument we can’t hold serial killers accountable, because at the time it feels good and they don’ think about the consequences.
[/quote]

Errr who is suggesting that fat people shouldn’t be held accountable? All I have done is say why many people are fat and suggest a preventative measure. In fact I have explicitly said that we should shun the actions that lead to someone becoming fat.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

…obesity is often a result of being victimized by external forces and evildoers…

[/quote]

Oh my, I couldn’t pass this one up.
[/quote]

Well it is. Over eating is a well known coping measure.

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]phaethon wrote:

…obesity is often a result of being victimized by external forces and evildoers…

[/quote]

Oh my, I couldn’t pass this one up.
[/quote]

Well it is. Over eating is a well known coping measure.[/quote]

And armed rebellion is a well known coping measure when feeling overtaxed.

I guess this too would be alright then, yes?

John 11:35

[quote]JEATON wrote:

John 11:35[/quote]

!!!