Were Women Ever Oppressed in the US?

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
There is a difference between equality in dignity and equality in make. A bear can shit in the woods, so can I, I’m still inherently better than a bear. Coming down to the level of man doesn’t make a woman equal, it makes her less.[/quote]

fuck you bears are awesome

Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

Eph, would you have any problem with a value based statement such as, “Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?”

I’m not talking about getting deep into questions like, “What is gender?” or nature vs. nurture issues. I’m just asking if you believe the above statement to be generally true.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

That doesn’t even make sense. Pedestal? I didn’t know sacrificing yourself for your wife was putting her on a pedestal, but okay. Why shouldn’t I hold a woman to different standards? Men and women aren’t the same. I expect a man to fight for his family and country, I expect a woman to take care of her family at home. If a woman is homeless with kids, I have more inclination to help her sense men have a duty to the widows and orphans. If a man is homeless he has more capability to get work than a woman so I am more inclined to drop him off at the labor office than buy him breakfast (though I do and will).

And, how on God’s green earth is treating women with higher dignity (social dignity) misogyny? When a man fully sacrifices himself through marriage and day-to-day life for his wife, how is that misogyny. I don’t know many men that sacrifice for someone they hate.

But, sure. I guess I could be wrong. I’m sure Jesus hated mankind, too.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

Eph, would you have any problem with a value based statement such as, “Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?”

I’m not talking about getting deep into questions like, “What is gender?” or nature vs. nurture issues. I’m just asking if you believe the above statement to be generally true. [/quote]

No. I think a statement like that is not generally true.

Society in Saudi Arabia for instance differs greatly from western societies and they demand a different role from men and women. Who decides what is right and what is wrong?

I’d have less of a problem with issues like these if you’d stick to gender roles that aren’t based on society, but on gender. But no matter what role someone decides to have in society, it should be one of choice instead of adherence.

To brother Chris: I don’t have you on ignore but see no way of communication with you at the present time.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ironcross wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
clip11 wrote:

actually loved the video. [/quote]

I agree that women shouldn’t fight. War in general is not cool and if we can keep any humans out of it, even using sexism or whatever you want to call it, so be it. How is it progress to subject more people to that? I feel torn between equality ideals and compassion. [/quote]

I think you’re muddying the waters here.

[/quote]

In that I’m changing the subject slightly? Yes, that certainly was a tangent.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

Is this the pedestal you’re talking about? :slight_smile:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
“Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?”

[/quote]

Probably one of the most intelligent and simply eloquent things I’ve read here in a long time.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If a man is homeless he has more capability to get work than a woman [/quote]

Huh?

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Eph, would you have any problem with a value based statement such as, “Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?”

[/quote]
But no matter what role someone decides to have in society, it should be one of choice instead of adherence.

[/quote]

Can’t both co-exist? Are they mutually exclusive?

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Eph, would you have any problem with a value based statement such as, “Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?”

[/quote]
But no matter what role someone decides to have in society, it should be one of choice instead of adherence.

[/quote]

Can’t both co-exist? Are they mutually exclusive?
[/quote]

Ofcourse they can co-exist. If it’s a woman’s choice to adhere to society’s general gender roles, then that’s fine.

But I object to society imposing gender roles, beit male or female roles.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
“Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?” [/quote]

Which society? What roles do you mean in general?

Are you talking “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen” and the man working 10-12 hour days?

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

Is this the pedestal you’re talking about? :)[/quote]

1 Timothy is one of the Pauline letters. It’s a letter, written by a man(St Paul) to a man(St Timothy); it’s not the word of God. If you’re going to criticise the Saints at least make sure you know what you’re talking about.

[quote]groo wrote:
I dunno prior to 8/18/1920 I’d say it was obvious they were oppressed which would certainly argue against never.[/quote]

Being unable to vote doesn’t make one oppressed.

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Eph, would you have any problem with a value based statement such as, “Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?”

[/quote]
But no matter what role someone decides to have in society, it should be one of choice instead of adherence.

[/quote]

Can’t both co-exist? Are they mutually exclusive?
[/quote]

Ofcourse they can co-exist. If it’s a woman’s choice to adhere to society’s general gender roles, then that’s fine.

But I object to society imposing gender roles, beit male or female roles.
[/quote]

This is a touchy subject and without agreeing upon and using the same nomenclature, it can be muddy.

I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the word “roles” and “society”. That implies something created by man. Do you feel man and woman have different natures, in general? And, that perhaps we are best served by adhering or surrendering to our true nature? We touched upon this a bit in the SAMA femininity/masculinity thread in case you’re interested, before that degraded into the usual biased opinions about roles and people bringing personal baggage to the table.

If a man and a woman has a different nature, shouldn’t we follow roles that are suitable to that nature? Of course, the foregoing is voluntary. And in fairness to society, I don’t think man woke up one day and said, “woman, from henceforth you shall stay at home, cook, clean and take care of the children and home”. I believe our nature steered us right into those “natural” roles which, for the feminine (I believe), is “nurturing”.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

Is this the pedestal you’re talking about? :)[/quote]

1 Timothy is one of the Pauline letters. It’s a letter, written by a man(St Paul) to a man(St Timothy); it’s not the word of God. If you’re going to criticise the Saints at least make sure you know what you’re talking about.[/quote]

Well, if the contents of the bible are inspired by God, why isn’t it fair to hold this particular passage up for scrutiny? I’m not “criticizing” it as I think it speaks quite nicely for itself, and should be judged on its merits.

But are you challenging me to find more misogynistic scripture? Alex, I’ll take Scripture and Misogyny for $500. I can start with Genesis if you’d like. How apropos, “start” with Genesis.

[quote]clip11 wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I dunno prior to 8/18/1920 I’d say it was obvious they were oppressed which would certainly argue against never.[/quote]

Being unable to vote doesn’t make one oppressed.[/quote]
I had a well thought out post on the nature of oppression and the political means for ending it…but then I remembered you’re a fucking pedophile. I feel tainted when your child loving fingers touch the keyboard to quote a post from me. You are a joke, if men lost the right to vote you wouldn’t call that oppression? The very definition of oppression is the unjust exercise of power or authority. I would say its axiomatic that authority of a government without proper representation is unjust.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Putting a woman on a [religious] pedestal isn’t honouring her and it isn’t about respect if by doing so you can hold her to different standards than you would hold against yourself.

Such a pedestal is simply a disguise for misogyny.[/quote]

Is this the pedestal you’re talking about? :)[/quote]

1 Timothy is one of the Pauline letters. It’s a letter, written by a man(St Paul) to a man(St Timothy); it’s not the word of God. If you’re going to criticise the Saints at least make sure you know what you’re talking about.[/quote]

Well, if the contents of the bible are inspired by God, why isn’t it fair to hold this particular passage up for scrutiny? I’m not “criticizing” it as I think it speaks quite nicely for itself, and should be judged on its merits.

But are you challenging me to find more misogynistic scripture? Alex, I’ll take Scripture and Misogyny for $500. I can start with Genesis if you’d like. How apropos, “start” with Genesis. [/quote]

Paul was not a misogynist. In fact, the highest office of the early church[*] was open to women and Paul said of the Apostle Junia that she was ‘outstanding among the apostles, and (she) was in Christ before I was.’

[*] Apostleship was the highest office of the early church - “And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.” - Corinthians 12:28

Sounds like equality to me.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
“Women and men have different roles in society and society is best served by overall adherence to those roles?” [/quote]

Which society? What roles do you mean in general?

Are you talking “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen” and the man working 10-12 hour days? [/quote]

Both you and eph seem to be projecting here, or want to.

“Society” means that thing where humans work together in communities.

Roles describe their general expectations, duties and positions within those communities.

Women are different from men. Generally speaking where applicable: They have wombs in which babies grow and vaginas from which babies are born. They have a different balance of hormones that cause them to think, feel, act, and make decisions differently from their male counterparts. Because of this tendency, they often better nurses, social workers, pre- and elementary school teachers, care-workers, and, yes, housewives, to name just a few. Conversely, because of men’s physiology, they generally tend to make better managers, CEO’s, politicians, soldiers, law enforcement officers, fire fighters, and a whole bunch of other positions, but you can probably get the picture at this point. Again, speaking generally, this is the case, no matter how much some insecure or confused males or females may want this NOT to be the case.

I never said one word, anywhere, suggesting anything like “keeping” women in their place or supporting Saudi Arabian style gender oppression (which it is). Come on.

Do I think women should be “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen?” Well, if I had been talking in absolutes and had to make a choice, I would put my trust in the general population of women to be orders of magnitude better at this than would the general population of men. I believe this would be true even if ALL of the women in the sample selection had never been “taught how” to be a housewife while all of the men had been given extensive training.

I “know” how to be a good dad to my son without even thinking about it. When it comes to play, teaching, discipline and the daily work of taking care of a 2 year old kid, my wife and I go about each of these in vastly different manners.

Will continue in the next post.

(The Grammar Nazi asks in advance to be pardoned for any typos or evidence of delirium here or above. He worked from 9am until 11pm literally non-stop today and is now practically typing this from outside of his body and should just go to bed, probably, but refuses to).

Quick example before I crush the point with pressing it. There are certain acts my son will engage in in front of his mother which he KNOWS not to engage in with me around. One of them is pushing the button that lights the stove (we have a gas range). My wife will tell him again and again to stop, and again and again he ignores her and does it, laughing.

When I hear it and walk in and just say his name sharply, he jumps like a gun went off and runs up to me and hugs me (cute little brat :wink: Same thing with running out into the street. I get so mad at my wife because this is fucking dangerous but she just can’t bring herself to be VERY strong with him in that manner. He tries the same when I’m outside and I yell “STOP!” once and it’s like he just ran in to a wall, and back he comes.

However, when he is not feeling good, and whiny and noisy and needy and complaining, it’s a damn good thing his mom is there. Because I just can’t handle it and I don’t know how to be kind and nurturing and sweet when someone is clearly insane.

All I can see is a problem that needs fixing, and all my wife can see is someone who is not feeling good and needs as much love as he can get right them, at the exact time that I am most inclined to withdraw my affection and close up and become cold.

I scold her for the former, and she scolds me for the latter.

Now for you people that have kids, you know which one of these you are, and if you are honest, you’ll admit that you tend to be dominant in one or the other. Sorry, I don’t buy that someone can be equal parts of both. At best, if you end up right in the middle you are a watered down version of each.

Again, please refrain from mischaracterizing me or putting words in my mouth. I know there have been women who have made terrific single-mothers, politicians, business owners, hostage negotiators and leaders (go Maggie T!), just as I know there are certain men who have the patience and fortitude to spend a third to a half of every day, cooking, cleaning, ironing, bathing, dressing, diapering, cleaning, listening to, entertaining, putting to sleep, cleaning, driving around, waking up six times in the middle of the night, listening to literally hours of whining and crying and complaining and demanding and repeating and all of the WORK that come with raising a small child and yet still can manage to smile and hug and not show frustration or anger through it all. Did I mention cleaning? :wink:

I aint one of them. But I know they exist. Never actually met one, come to think of it. But yeah, I’m sure they exist…somewhere. Maybe :slight_smile:


Cliff’s Notes:

Men tend to be physically larger and stronger than women. Men almost always have a hormonal profile that differs significantly from that of women. These factors, among others, tend to cause the two sexes to think, feel, act, make decisions, and cope with stress differently. It also tends to affect our perception of reality and our ultimate motivations. Because of these differences, men tend to be better suited for certain roles that conform with their general tendencies. And the same holds true of women.

I actually thought my first question to eph was about as clear as I could have made this (thanks to TheBodyGuard for seeing it and recognizing it, as I suspected you would). I honestly did not expect this to be such a contentious suggestion. It seems self-evident to me.