Wellbutrin to Raise My Libido

brent

It would be a mistake to assume that Wellbutrin and Adderall/Ritalin would have the same effects based simply on the activity of the drugs at the dopamine transporter (DAT). There is much more nuance to the mechanisms that it would take more prolixity to explain than anyone here has the patience for, so unfortunately, just take my word for it.

Your point seems to be that Wellbutrin is not a dopaminergic agent (although you do subsequently say that it does effect DA, only weakly). There are clear lines of evidence that support the fact that bupropion binds to DAT, so the idea that it has no effect on DA is not correct. However, the clinical relevance of the DA modulation of the drug is certainly a point of debate. For example:

In vivo activity of bupropion at the human dopamine transporter as measured by positron emission tomography.
Learned-Coughlin SM, Bergström M, Savitcheva I, Ascher J, Schmith VD, LÄngstrom B.

GlaxoSmithKline, Five Moore Drive, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA.
Abstract

BACKGROUND: Converging lines of evidence are consistent with an inhibitory effect of the antidepressant and smoking-cessation aid bupropion on dopamine and norepinephrine reuptake, but the in vivo effects of the drug at the human dopamine transporter (DAT) have not been studied to date. This study employed positron emission tomography (PET) to assess the extent and duration of DAT receptor occupancy by bupropion and its metabolites under conditions of steady-state oral dosing with bupropion sustained-release (SR) in healthy volunteers.

METHODS: Six healthy male volunteers received bupropion SR 150 mg daily on days 1 through 3 and 150 mg every 12 hours on day 4 through the morning of day 11. PET investigations were performed between 1 and 7 days before initiation of bupropion SR dosing, as well as 3, 12, and 24 hours after the last dose of bupropion SR on day 11.

RESULTS: Bupropion and its metabolites inhibited striatal uptake of the selective DAT-binding radioligand (11)C-betaCIT-FE in vivo. Three hours after the last dose of bupropion SR, average DAT occupancy by bupropion and its metabolites was 26%-a level that was maintained through the last PET assessment at 24 hours after dosing.

CONCLUSIONS: Bupropion and its metabolites induced a low occupancy of the striatal DAT over 24 hours under conditions of steady-state oral dosing with therapeutic doses of bupropion SR. These data are consistent with the hypothesis that dopamine reuptake inhibition may be responsible in part for the therapeutic effects of the drug.

Juxtapose this with the following study:

Acute effect of the anti-addiction drug bupropion on extracellular dopamine concentrations in the human striatum: an [11C]raclopride PET study.
Egerton A, Shotbolt JP, Stokes PR, Hirani E, Ahmad R, Lappin JM, Reeves SJ, Mehta MA, Howes OD, Grasby PM.

Psychiatric Imaging, Medical Research Council Clinical Sciences Centre, Imperial College London, Hammersmith Hospital, Du Cane Road, London W12 0NN, UK. Alice.Egerton@iop.kcl.ac.uk
Abstract

Bupropion is an effective medication in treating addiction and is widely used as an aid to smoking cessation. Bupropion inhibits striatal dopamine reuptake via dopamine transporter blockade, but it is unknown whether this leads to increased extracellular dopamine levels at clinical doses in man. The effects of bupropion on extracellular dopamine levels in the striatum were investigated using [(11)C]raclopride positron emission tomography (PET) imaging in rats administered saline, 11 or 25 mg/kg bupropion i.p. and in healthy human volunteers administered either placebo or 150 mg bupropion (Zyban Sustained-Release).

A cognitive task was used to stimulate dopamine release in the human study. In rats, bupropion significantly decreased [(11)C]raclopride specific binding in the striatum, consistent with increases in extracellular dopamine concentrations. In man, no significant decreases in striatal [(11)C]raclopride specific binding were observed. Levels of dopamine transporter occupancy in the rat at 11 and 25 mg/kg bupropion i.p. were higher than predicted to occur in man at the dose used.

Thus, these data indicate that, at the low levels of dopamine transporter occupancy achieved in man at clinical doses, bupropion does not increase extracellular dopamine levels. These findings have important implications for understanding the mechanism of action underlying bupropions’ therapeutic efficacy and for the development of novel treatments for addiction and depression.

So the research in this area is admittedly mixed. This is a very small sample of the literature but I’m using it simply as an example. The real question that has been posed here is whether there is a benefit to adding bupropion to TRT to increase libido. Obviously, there is no primary research that has specifically looked at this situation but there are other studies that show that if the decrease in libido is the result of an SSRI then adding bupropion may increase libido.

Similarly in women the addition of bupropion seems to increase sexual desire. The evidence for Wellbutrin increasing libido in ā€œnormalā€ men with low libido has been equivocal. So the bottom line is if you’re loss of libido was the result of an SSRI or you’re a woman then taking Wellbutrin may actually help. I have real reservations extrapolating this effect to those on TRT because the mechanism is most likely unrelated.

This would be defined by the lab ranges for DHEA-S. Anti aging docs to talk about optimal levels, which are considers by them to be youthful, which are higher levels in ranges. That might be excessive for some.

Would it be logical to assume that if one had both low testosterone, low estradiol, and low cortisol, dhea levels would most likely be low as well?

[quote]jrvswim wrote:
Would it be logical to assume that if one had both low testosterone, low estradiol, and low cortisol, dhea levels would most likely be low as well?[/quote]

DHEA is a different part of the hormone cascade than cortisol, but your other assumptions are along the right lines of thinking…there is no need for high DHEA if it has no place to go…

If all the hormones you are listed are low, I’d look at pregnenolone vice DHEA.

Alright I will, thanks vtballa I have both dhea and pregnenolone…I 'm just hesitant to give them a try. What do you mean by ā€œthere is no need for high dhea if it has no place to go?ā€

[quote]jrvswim wrote:
Alright I will, thanks vtballa I have both dhea and pregnenolone…I 'm just hesitant to give them a try. What do you mean by ā€œthere is no need for high dhea if it has no place to go?ā€[/quote]

If your body is not making hormones from DHEA (andros) then there is no need for the body to put resources into making DHEA (from pregneolone). Those efforts will be directed elsewhere.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]jrvswim wrote:
Would it be logical to assume that if one had both low testosterone, low estradiol, and low cortisol, dhea levels would most likely be low as well?[/quote]

DHEA is a different part of the hormone cascade than cortisol, but your other assumptions are along the right lines of thinking…there is no need for high DHEA if it has no place to go…

If all the hormones you are listed are low, I’d look at pregnenolone vice DHEA.[/quote]

Let me clarify this post, as it seems to state that DHEA and cortisol have nothing to do with each other…

DHEA and Cortisol are actually both produced in the adrenal cortex in response to the pituitary producing ACTH. They tend to rise and fall together, and to my knowledge, there is no way to increase one without the other as part of this axis (though DHEA can be produced separately in the brain and in the skin). This is if everything is working properly.

My original statement on low DHEA resulting in low testosterone (and estradiol) remains unchanged.

[quote]jrvswim wrote:
Alright I will, thanks vtballa I have both dhea and pregnenolone…I 'm just hesitant to give them a try. What do you mean by ā€œthere is no need for high dhea if it has no place to go?ā€[/quote]
i would try them both seperately first, i initially used a compounded cream with both dhea/preg in them and experienced side effects of agitation and insomnia. MY dr assumed that preg was increasing my dhea and then i was adding dhea again to that so i just went back on a compounded preg cream and feeling alot better, hopefully in a few weeks time i can tell u how the preg has effected my other hormones especially my dhea levels which were low. DHEA just increased my E2 levels but everyone is different, even though my dhea levels were low but my E2 was already high. Im also now on arimidex which has helped lower my E2 levels but still abit high and after last blood test have increased the dose from 1/2mg twice a week to 3 times a week

Thanks for the further clarification vtballa and thats for the advice danny. My E2 is pretty low at 17 in the labcorp 3 to 70 range, and another time it came back as a 13. So i’m not too worried about my E2 getting too high. I have read else where you really need it around 25 to have a decent libido. I’ll probably try the preg. first like suggested. Thanks again. I bought a shit load of those today, since I leave for germany tomorrow, and you can’t get them there without a prescription.

good luck with it and keep us informed on how u go.

cheers!!!

[quote]Danny880 wrote:
DHEA will more then likely increase E2 as it does in most guys, instead try using pregnenolone cream to increase dhea levels and help with adrenal fatigue and supposedly no E2 issues like when using dhea, but i will know this in a few weeks myself when i get labs done after being on preg, but in myself i feel alot better, dhea i felt some mild antidepressant type effects but didnt last long.[/quote]

That is not the case with many. When using DHEA as a transdermal steroid, I have not had any issues with E2. Obviously, with oral steroids, tricky things can happen when you involve the liver. But this is not always the case with a transdermal drug.

[quote]TysonKilpatrick wrote:
Brentf13:

I know that you are speaking from personal experience here, and no one can argue with that, but I have to correct you on a few points. I am a doctor of pharmacy and specialize in clinical neurology and can assure you that dopaminergic drugs are used routinely and that bupropion is amongst them. Without getting into a pedantic amount of detail to illustrate the point let me try to clarify what I believe to be the confusion. To say that there is one dopaminergic pathway in the brain that is either modulated or not by a dopaminergic drug is patently false. There are many, many areas of the brain with various subsets and populations of dopamine receptors and different drugs affect select areas. Amphetimines (Adderal, Ritalin) modulate cortical dopaminergic receptors while parkinson’s medications (Levodopa, Requip, etc.) activate dopamine receptors in the nigrostriatal region (and other’s). Wellbutrin does not stimulate dopamine tracts in the limbic/mesocortical region directly which is why you don’t believe it has dopamine agonizing effects. Cocaine, methamphetime, and a few other street drugs do hit this area which is responsible for the pleasure/reward perceptions that are the hallmark of those drugs of abuse.

I just felt it necessary to clear that up. [/quote]

Excellent post Doc. I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for your input.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

BTW, did you start taking the wellbutrin? How is that working out for you? I recently started it myself and have noticed a profound difference (good).[/quote]

Can you expound on this ? Wellbutrin is familiar to me as it helps some people with Ulcerative Colitis and I have wondered how I would feel on it. I could use a mood brightener.

Yes I took the wellbutrin. I took 75mg daily for a month, 150mg daily for two months, and 300 daily for a month. I didn’t really feel any improvement in my libido so I am weening off it. But i know it has worked for others.

So I have been reading through all this stuff over and over again. Based on my labs on the first page, and everyone’s advice is their a consensus on what I should try? DHEA or Preg or a product a bought ā€œbut might returnā€¦ā€ called reset A.D.

Here is a quote from Dr Marianco, if you’re unaware of him and his practice look him up. He’s helped hundreds. Frankly he’s the best period.

ā€œAntidepressants usually (except for Wellbutrin - which increases norepinephrine alone), work by increasing serotonin levels plus or minus norepinephrine.ā€

TysonKilpatrick, by the way please don’t take offense because this is just a discussion, but the research you noted is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s conducted by the drug manufacturer and their conclusion is??? Nothing really other than they hope this drug acts how they are claiming. It sounds dubious at best. The best research is from the actual users of this drug and trust me people aren’t running out to get it. If it had a legitimate positive effect on libido it would be quite popular. I’ve used it to 450mg and I can tell you it’s effects feel exactly like a straight NRI. Knowing that I agree with Dr Marianco as noted above above.

By the way Dr Marianco goes on to point out, being an NRI, this drug stresses the adrenals. Quite a few people today suffer from adrenal fatigue already.

[quote]HiredGun wrote:

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

BTW, did you start taking the wellbutrin? How is that working out for you? I recently started it myself and have noticed a profound difference (good).[/quote]

Can you expound on this ? Wellbutrin is familiar to me as it helps some people with Ulcerative Colitis and I have wondered how I would feel on it. I could use a mood brightener.[/quote]

I would explain it as a ā€œreturn to normalā€ā€¦to my old self…

Its hard to explain without cliches, but over the past few years, I had slowly slipped into a mild depression that I didn’t even notice…it was so gradual that I never felt ā€œabnormalā€ā€¦but within a few days of taking it, I was in a brighter mood and had a more refreshed outlook on life…i didn’t feel as stressed and was much easier able to control my anger and stress…

Like I said, it wasn’t as if I ā€œfeltā€ depressed before, but after a few weeks on it I was able to look back a few months and just realize that something hadn’t been right…

I’m currently off of it because I am trying to wean off all my meds (cortef for adrenal fatigue, pregnenolone for cortisol support, and arimidex for E2 control) and return to baseline…it is something though that I would not hesitate to pick back up again in the future if I am ever slipping into a ā€œfunkā€ā€¦

I think its most positive benefit is that it is very mild…

I will also note that I think I saw an instant increase in libido (lack of impotence would be a better word, as the desire has always been there, just not the physical ability)…but had also made some changes to my other meds around the same time, so its hard to pinpoint what it was…

At any rate, the sexual improvements had gone away by the time I stopped taking it (approximately 3 months later)…so take that for what its worth…not sure its the best for purely enhancing libido, but if part of your issues are mental, it could help if used in conjunction with other meds/supplements…

Brent,

I can assure you I don’t take any of this personally. One can’t have an ego in science. To comment on your post, I don’t think you got the cut of my jib or else I did a bad job of trying to get it across. The point was that the research is conflicting (since the last article supported your point). The actual articles were just an example of reems of data on the subject. There are probably 20 other studies that show that bupropion is active at the DAT receptor. The issue is whether or not that fact is consequential in the drug’s overall effect. Some data suggests it’s not. Another myth that really needs to be dispelled is that any study done by a drug company/manufacturer is automatically tendentious and therefore null and void. This is clearly a logical fallacy as the study may very well be perfectly legitimate. It is true that you need to be aware of conflicts of interest but if we relied only on independent studies to flesh out drug MOA’s (mechanisms of action) we would be waiting for a damn long time.

The drug companies are the only ones, in most cases, with a vested interest in getting data published for their compound and you have to trust, at least to a reasonable degree, the safeguards put in place by the FDA and the peer review process to identify and eliminate biased data. All the big pharma conspiracy theorists beating their chests on so many of these forums are largely misguided and base their arguments on ignorance of fact. Believe me, because I do actually deal with this on a daily basis, there is NOTHING a scientist loves more than the opportunity to rip a fellow scientist a new one in public based on research error. They are so pedantic and vociferous at times I often wonder how anything gets published at all. Obviously, there are exceptions to this but you get the point. I agree that bupropion’s effect on libido is minimal but for certain populations, most likely having nothing at all to do with TRT, it may be of some benefit as I discussed before.

Also, the adrenal fatigue issue with bupropion would be a stretch, although it has not been studied to my knowledge, since it is most active in the CNS and would have very little to do with reuptake inhibition in the periphery at these doses. The adrenal glands are not responsible for NE/E (norepinephrine/epinephrine) production within the CNS. Furthermore, even if it did this would cause an increase in NE/E and would not cause further sympathetic outflow from the adrenal medulla in and of itself. There would not be a secondary upregulation of cortisol production due to increased catecholamines since the cortisol is under HPA control and is only coincidentally elevated with NE/E due to a stress response.

[quote]KSman wrote:
Too stimulating like drinking way too much coffee. That was my experience and I have see reports of others having same issues. Some do not have such problems.

When one takes a stimulant drug, one can easily go too fast and the rest of the body cannot keep up. One then feels excited and exhausted at the same time. Things get out of balance.

I am a Mechanical Engineer, not a doc.[/quote]

that happen to me also,Im on 1502x a day ?? why did it make me hyper ? what can I do ?
take 300 all at once ?