We Need Another Christianity Thread

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
761

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Aw now that’s chintzy. Go ahead and mangle every sound principle of exegesis and exposition so as to make it say what you like and tell me what these passages mean. They conveniently left out 1st Corinthians 5 too like they always do. I hope capped is watchin, but I doubt it. Look man. There’s no need for all this animosity. I’m askin YOU. YOU tell me what the bible says about judging. I know what it says and I WILL prove it. The entire gospel IS judgement and atonement.[/quote]

All of the verses on that list clearly say what the bible says about judging and I did as asked so quit being coy and ducking the verse i posted. But let’s look at the one you did. Hmm pretty sure Corinthians says not associate with a slanderer which I’m pretty sure I could pull several pieces of your posts about me and my beliefs (which you in your all-knowing wisdom seemed to be 100% sure of my experience and life) as SLANDER. So according to Corinthians I shouldn’t be associating with you.
I’m assuming since I don’t meet any of the criteria in here, i.e. not a drunkard, not sexually immoral (happily married), not a thief, etc. that you must be trying to pin me as one of idolatry with again no real basis for your slanderous words

762

I wasn’t pinning anything on anybody. I was making a point that the idea of never judging is an unbiblical lie. If you insist, I will prove that, even from the passages you quote. I have been around this block one million times.

I’m simply asking you questions. I asked you about some utterly foundational defining Christian doctrines which have been affirmed by every Christian communion for 2 millenia. You didn’t wanna know about those. What am I supposed to think. Saying what you say above about being born again is said by half a dozen godless cults I can think of instantly off the top of my head.

Let’s start with just this one question. Was Jesus of Nazareth literally born in the flesh, of a virgin, conceived by the Holy Spirit and as such the only eternally begotten Son of the one true and living God? A wrong answer to that spells “I am an idolator yet lost in my sin”, no matter what else somebody says. A biblical answer to that question usually, but not always, brings from that person more biblically correct answers. YES, these absolutely matter. Eternally so.

There are other “spirits”, other “gospel’s” and other “jesus’s”. Paul warned us.(2 Corinthians 11:4) They look, talk and act sometimes quite a bit like the real Jesus. (That’s how they fool people) He, and other new testament writers, gave us ways to find out which is which so we don’t allow doctrines of demons in our midst ya see? (1 Tim. 4:1-5) I didn’t make this up.

It’s been around for like 20 centuries before me. Just like 1st Corinthians 5, Paul is laying down a principle to his student and son in the faith Timothy. The specifics he mentions in either passage are just ready examples. He is referring to any divergence from the apostles teaching which is everywhere in the New Testament.

Lemme make one thing clear. I WANT you as my brother. No person you have ever or will ever meet has been more truthful to you than I just was. I AM NOT looking for ways to see people as outside the saving grace of Christ, but I also WILL NOT compromise His truth to make myself feel better or avoid having somebody unhappy with me.

763

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If everything God made was very good then it is not possible that the way he made it wasn’t.
[/quote]

[quote]
Children ARE NOT innocent. [/quote]

These two seem contradictory to me. What you said about us inheriting the sin of Adam doesn’t seem to fix the contradiction - unless you also say that we are not created by God.

A recurring theme of the Quran is that Satan is a plain enemy to mankind. Would you disagree with that? Why would we be an enemy if we aren’t something other than evil?

Why couldn’t it just be:

On your face at His feet is the only acceptable response.

I wouldn’t disagree with that, we may be debating the nature of man for no good reason. I’ve heard before that we as humans are too unholy to pray to God. That we need to pray to the local preachers, and they pray to higher preachers, etc. etc. until it gets to the Pope. Then he prays to Jesus, who takes all those prayers and gets it to God. Sounds ridiculous to me - I’m not even sure if that’s really the Catholic position - the other guy may have just been messing with me. No offense to anyone

I know you’re not Catholic, so you don’t believe THAT, but is it still a similar concept? Are we too impure to pray to God directly?

764

Good questions as I would expect from my new friend “the Bear”. I have answers ya know. =] They’ll have to wait til later tonight though. Back, bi’s and abs (pull day) and then I have a computer customer to go to.

765

[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< These two seem contradictory to me. What you said about us inheriting the sin of Adam doesn’t seem to fix the contradiction - unless you also say that we are not created by God. >>>[/quote]Everything God made was very good in every way because He said it was. Including Adam’s nakedness. Yes, we are created by God, but that “very good” state has been lost. We are not given every particular as to the precise mechanism by which God brings new human souls into existence (yes, I’m aware of the Muslim view). Children are descendants of Adam and as such have inherited his corrupted nature. All we need do is watch them. =] MINE MINE MINE, NO NO ON, GIMME GIMME GIMME. They require stringent restraint for their to be any character built in them.

Man is no longer good and neither are his offspring. David said in the 51st Psalm “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”. The same David that God said was a man after his own heart (1 Samuel 13:14; 16:7; Acts 13:22) How can God then say that? David understood salvation by grace through faith better than most of the church does today. As I said in my post above, the atonement that was to later be paid for his sins in Christ was credited to his account as a promise. (like I say, Hebrews 11)

God created Adam good. All his children would have also been good. Adam died and in him so did all his children. Which is why the savior, Jesus, could not be born Adam’s son. God the Father is His Father. Eternally, as His relational Father in the Godhead and temporally, as the Father of His humanity. He HAD TO BE born and remain sinless for his sacrifice to be acceptable or else his death would have been for Himself and not us. Everyone dies for their own sins. He died for the sins of others which could only be possible if He had none of His own. That’s also why He could be resurrected. He had no sin and LAID DOWN His life for His sheep. Nobody took it from Him. (John 10:18) Hence He could take it back after paying the price for all the sins of His sheep.[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< A recurring theme of the Quran is that Satan is a plain enemy to mankind. Would you disagree with that? Why would we be an enemy if we aren’t something other than evil? >>>[/quote]Satan most assuredly IS the enemy of mankind. Both are evil. Just like Stalin and Hitler, though they fought a war against each other. Satan is man’s enemy by doing all he can to help man stay away from Jesus. He doesn’t care what else anybody does as long as it doesn’t include going to Jesus for salvation. He wants us dead because he hates God. We want to be dead because we hate God. He is a master of deception wherein he feeds us whatever is most efficient for the individual to keep him hating God and loving death and darkness. Everybody is everybody’s enemy with hatred for God being the common motivation. (Romans 5:10)[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< Why couldn’t it just be:

On your face at His feet is the only acceptable response. >>>[/quote]Because “without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins” (Hebrews 9:22) You really should read that book too. All of the old testament law, ritual and sacrifice is superseded by the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. On you face at His feet minus Jesus equals hellfire where blazing hot sandals that boil your brains would indeed be a holiday. “There is no other name given under heaven whereby men must be saved”. (Acts 4:12) How ya gonna say to God the Father, "yeah I know you sent your Son to earth to die so I could be saved from my sin, but I like my idea better?[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< I wouldn’t disagree with that, we may be debating the nature of man for no good reason. I’ve heard before that we as humans are too unholy to pray to God. >>>[/quote] God will hear one prayer from unholy sinners every single time. “I am lost and damned in my sin without Jesus. Please save me”. After that we approach His throne clothed in the very righteous of Christ Himself. He hears His children when they pray. [quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< That we need to pray to the local preachers, and they pray to higher preachers, etc. etc. until it gets to the Pope. Then he prays to Jesus, who takes all those prayers and gets it to God. Sounds ridiculous to me - I’m not even sure if that’s really the Catholic position >>>[/quote] It isn’t, but don’t worry about that for now.[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< I know you’re not Catholic, so you don’t believe THAT, >>>[/quote] you are absolutely correct. [quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< but is it still a similar concept? [/quote]Absolutely not.[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< Are we too impure to pray to God directly?[/quote]Without Jesus? Yes. Once adopted into God’s family through the blood sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ, “Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16) He is not a way or even the best way. He is the ONLY way God has anything to do with anybody except to damn them deservedly and justly for their own sins. People may think I’m spooky and mystical, (or nuts) but I have been in His presence and know His sweet tender love as my Father, my Bridegroom and my big brother all wrapped into one. Yes, I am too impure to so much as think His name, but in Christ I am a new creature recreated in the likeness of my holy risen Lord.

I went on too long again.

766

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

How ya gonna say to God the Father, "yeah I know you sent your Son to earth to die so I could be saved from my sin, but I like my idea better?[/quote]

Well, I don’t plan on saying that, as I don’t believe it to be true.

But in the event He asks me, and I can actually reply as calmly as I can now (not trembling in fear - unable to think straight), I’d say something like:

“I didn’t know all that. The world was full of liars and it was hard to decipher the truth in it all. So I prayed to You directly, that You would guide me straight and forgive my sins”

[quote]

No. Regardless of how high or low mankind is, it doesn’t matter. His nature is that He receives the prayers from all (the thoughts even - prayers or not). Then He can do with them as He wills.

Who’s “we”?

I don’t.
I don’t think you do either.

767

Just for now. Allow me to introduce you to the only eternally begotten Son of the one true and living most high God. A Son who shares His Father’s divine nature and being. A son who is seated at the right hand of His Father in majesty on high and who WILL judge the human race in justice and righteousness.

A Son that those do commit “shirk”, as it were, who refuse Him as their only means of access to His Father. The epistle( letter) to the Hebrews, chapter 1. This is God’s description of His beloved ETERNAL son. Much of it DIRECT quotations from the old testament. [quote]1-Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2-but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3-He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4-having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

5-For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?

Or again,

“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?

6-And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

7-Of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire.”

8-But of the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9-You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”

10-And,“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11-they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12-like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.a
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

13-And to which of the angels has he ever said,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? >>>[/quote] In chapter 2 the writer asks: [quote]<<< how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? >>>[/quote]

768

Tribulus. I have (unfortunately) been reading your posts in this thread and in the Hitchens thread. I am amazed and horrified at what you type. I don’t even know where to start. I guess if you had answered any of QuickBens questions I might have had a few of my own answered, but no.

There is zero evidence for anything you believe except in a book. Half the world believes something else, written in a different but equally wrong book. But you are so sure you are right and they are wrong!? Would an all powerful god really allow this to happen to his creation? Half or more of his children believing in another god, through no fault of their own?

Damned to hell because they were born in a different country? What about the tribes who have not heard of your religion or any religion for that matter? What does your god do with them? Hell good enough for them too? So loving. So caring. So understanding.

It appears that it doesn’t matter what you do in this life, as long as you worship YOUR god, you get to spend eternity with him and jesus.

Imagine that, this omnipotent being that created himself (always a ‘he’, funny that…) created time, energy, the entire universe, just so he could create a race of beings that would worship him or else. Sounds like a nice guy eh. Not at ALL like some tyrant/dictator asshole. It’s so obviously a human construct it’s embarrassing.

Also, and i’m not sure if you were being serious here (lets hope not) but dinosaurs did not ‘walk with man’. There is ZERO evidence for that. The ignorance required to believe that is astounding. Have your god, but why be ignorant of science. Life evolved, please accept it.

What about the children your god kills in horrendous, unimaginable pain and suffering before worship time begins? Still limbo is it? Hell? Any exceptions? They are after all NOT INNOCENT as you say?

Ludicrous and horrifying.

769

There is no point wailing to Tiribulus about the unfairness of it all. He is fortunate enough not to have to know the answers. God is God, the bible is the Word, and anything God says, goes. It’s not Tiribulus (is that some play on the word Tribulation?) fault what the book says. Now leave him and squatting bear to their debate.

Hah! I knew this thread would make it past page 30 :slight_smile:

770

[quote]Quick Ben wrote:<<< Now leave him and squatting bear to their debate. >>>[/quote]Please?

771

Accidental double post so I’ll take this opportunity to plug my boy Shai Linne, the rapping theologian. I cannot stand RAP usually, but this guy? WOOOHOOO!!! It don’t get no better n nis folks. Most churches don’t have it this good. Shai Linne - Triune Praise - YouTube

772

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

A Son that those do commit “shirk”, as it were, who refuse Him as their only means of access to His Father. [/quote]

You don’t need Jesus or anyone or anything to access God. That doesn’t make sense.

Nobody can prevent accessing God even if they try - you already know this. How can you hide anything from God?

773

We’re talkin past each other my friend. That’s ok. We’ll get there. I have to get ready for work now though. God doesn’t need anything or anyone to access us. (That’s totally different than us accessing Him) Access may have been a poor choice of words in this case. “A Son that those do commit “shirk”, as it were, who refuse Him as their only means of forgiveness and acceptability before His Father.” That’s better.

774

Evolution thread appears to be locked or something. Thought I’d post my thoughts here as I took the trouble to write them up:

I think a lot of people misinterpret the creation story. It is clearly not a literal description of the creation of earth, animals, light, the heavenly bodies and man. It is symbolic; austere; abstract - ‘God sweeping over the water’ ‘a darkness over the surface,’ primordial bodies of water, the lack of sequential order as if time is not a factor etc

There is also an argument that Gen 1.1 - 2.3 is from a later ‘P’(Priestly) source redacted at a later date. In fact different sources are clearly evident within the creation story - e.g. one mentions Eve was created from Adam’s rib another that she was created from dust. The fact that this was never considered a problem at the time when they were compiled indicates that the creation story was never intended to be taken literally.

The creation story has many similarities to other Eastern creation stories. There is also a great deal of similarity between the flood story and other Eastern flood stories - e.g. Gilgamesh. There actually was a flood at the right time - 2750 and 2900 BC - the Sumerian flood layer is evident for all sceptics to see today.

The idea that mankind was killed off seems obviously symbolic to me as well. An earlier version is in the Gilgamesh and an even earlier Sumerian version has been found that confirms the destruction of the ‘cult centres:’

‘All the windstorms, exceedingly powerful,
Attacked as one,
At the same time, the flood sweeps over the cult-centers.
After, for seven days,
the flood sweeps over the cult centers.
After, for seven days and seven nights,
The flood had swept over the land,
And the huge boat had been tossed
About by the windstorms on the great waters,’

The Sumerian Noah was Ziusudra. None of this should be of any surprise to anyone who knows a bit about the period in question - the Jewish people do not begin until Abraham is chosen.

775

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
All of the old testament law, ritual and sacrifice is superseded by the once for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

[/quote]

What about the covenant with Noah? And God’s promise to the children of Noah never to destroy mankind again and the symbolism of that promise in the rainbow? Do you believe that this unconditional promise made to all mankind - made before the conditional covenants established with Abraham and his descendants - has been superseded?

EDIT: I know the Noahide covenant doesn’t include observance of the Sabbath and that Christians consider the Sabbath as a celebration of the risen Christ so that it is essentially a replacement of the Judaic Sabbath - but do you believe keeping the Sabbath is important as something to observe? Do you believe it is it an unconditional covenant like the covenants of the Jews/Jews before Christ?

776

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God doesn’t need anything or anyone to access us. (That’s totally different than us accessing Him) [/quote]

Is it really though? How can we access Him?

I mean sure, we can try and talk / pray to Him, but it won’t get there unless He’s listening.

If He’s listening… that means that in fact He was accessing us in the first place.

(which - in my opinion - don’t worry. He already is listening / watching anyway)

[quote]
Access may have been a poor choice of words in this case. “A Son that those do commit “shirk”, as it were, who refuse Him as their only means of forgiveness and acceptability before His Father.” That’s better.[/quote]

That’s a very big claim… what is it’s foundation? Is there anything besides the Bible?

As a side - shirk is specifically to associate partners in worship with God.

(Which is exactly what you are doing)

777

[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< That’s a very big claim… what is it’s foundation? Is there anything besides the Bible? >>>[/quote]Nope[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< As a side - shirk is specifically to associate partners in worship with God.

(Which is exactly what you are doing)
[/quote]Now were gittin somewhere. According to the Qur’an I indeed am. Can we agree that there’s one God with one revealed nature and that whoever does not worship that God is in idolatry? Also please tell me frankly why you do not believe the bible, especially the new testament. The rest of your post will be answered as we go.

778

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< That’s a very big claim… what is it’s foundation? Is there anything besides the Bible? >>>[/quote]Nope[quote]squating_bear wrote:<<< As a side - shirk is specifically to associate partners in worship with God.

(Which is exactly what you are doing)
[/quote]Now were gittin somewhere. According to the Qur’an I indeed am. [/quote]

Yea, but it also recognizes that some of you don’t intend to.

yep

not so sure…

And when I say that, I’m not just saying that we would disagree on what that nature IS, I myself wouldn’t have said that it’s been revealed at all. Those 99 names don’t really reveal all that much, some of them even seem contradictory.

“Most Severe In Punishment”

“Most Merciful”

Intentions matter.

Intentions play a big role in Islam. If your intentions are pure then so is your heart. As we don’t automatically condemn mankind with a dirty heart from birth, intentions is actually where it’s all at.

Also, technically - no. Idolatry would be to worship other gods.

In all honesty… I don’t really see why I would believe it. I’ve been told it mixes truth with lies, and I really haven’t read that much of it.

It doesn’t really make much sense to read it, because I already know that reading it once with my current worldview is pretty close to worthless. I’d have to actually study it to be worth anything.

And I haven’t been willing to put in that kind of time. I’m still studying Arabic.

779

Some things jump out at me here, but it’s gonna have to wait. Also, when I quote just a portion of your post it is not because I think the rest is a waste or not important. It’s usually because I think that my answer to the part I quoted will also answer the part I didn’t. Or that it will be better answered later when some more foundation is laid. Just wanted to make that clear.

Try this. I’ve quoted it a couple dozen times here already:
The apostle Paul to the saints at Rome. 1st chapter verses 18-27 [quote]18-For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19-because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20-For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21-For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22-Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23-and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

  24-Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25-For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

  26-For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. [/quote]EVERYBODY knows, not only that there is a God, but that He is the God of the bible. They suppress that truth to follow whatever other path they may choose. Which again, makes no difference to Satan as long as it isn't the one I'm telling you about.
780

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Try this. I’ve quoted it a couple dozen times here already:
The apostle Paul to the saints at Rome. 1st chapter verses 18-27
[/quote]

Every time I read it, verses 23 and 25 jump out at me. They tell me not to worship Jesus.

Didn’t comment on it before because I didn’t want to get into arguing with you about interpreting the Bible - that would be pretty ridiculous. But at the same time I can’t read it differently than I do.

On what do you base this assertion sir?