[quote]
Worked with the native Americans.[/quote]
Uh, they had ( a few still have) several nations… Even after the plagues decimated their population and cultures.
[quote]
You “around” for Vietnam? You were actually in the meeting rooms when they were discussing the invasion? Same goes for Afghanistan? Really? Okay in that case I will take your opinions on our goals there as fact without any reasoning. You were there since 1960 after all. Like some baby deity you were “around”.[/quote]
They are a matter of historical documents… Perhaps you should try reading more then you type…
I call bogon on you…
[quote]
1812, War of Northern Agression[/quote]
So stopping genocide / slavery doesn’t count???
Impressment: apologists term for ENSLAVEMENT!
War of Norther Aggression: 1) you forget “Kansas, bloody Kansas” The slavers shot first. 2) Slavery: Doesn’t human life, dignity, freedom, mean anything? Hard to find a more just war.
[quote]Null wrote:
[quote]
Worked with the native Americans.[/quote]
Uh, they had ( a few still have) several nations… Even after the plagues decimated their population and cultures.[/quote]
Yep…guns, germs, and steel certainly opened my eyes on this.
On the topic…Alot of countries have tried to take on Afghanistan over the centuries and have failed have they not. Was there a commen factor?
There is a shitload of money to be made in operations like this. Even if it looks like a losing propostion. When you boil it all down, It’s still about money.
There was a newscast on the other night and they were interviewing the guys building the bases and such. Where are these troops going to stay? The builders are way behind shedule. The logistics is staggering. From what limited knowledge I have in these matters I gathered that It’s alot tougher to bring all this shit BACK than it was to bring over in the first place. Not sure why. Maybe someone in the military can confirm this for me so I have it right.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
The US has fought a number of unjust and unsuccessful wars…[/quote]
Name them.[/quote]
1812, War of Northern Agression, Phillipines, WWI, Vietnam, …[/quote]
Please explain why the war of 1812 was unjust?[/quote]
Because you cannot simply run around “freeing” people whenever religious hysteria compells you to spread “freedom” and/or “democracy”.
That is simply inappropriate behavior.
[/quote]
And the “Jihad” is what? Religious hysteria.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
- “why we are in Afghanistan” - Afghanistan is the central Asian country that from the mid 90s until 2002 was under the oppressive boot heel of and politically controlled for the most part by the Taliban - extremist Muslims who gained control after the Soviets withdrew in the late 80s.
[/quote]
Don’t forget to tell him that those freedom figh…I mean extremists, were trained and supported by the U.S government.
[quote]Null wrote:
[quote]
1812, War of Northern Agression[/quote]
So stopping genocide / slavery doesn’t count???
Impressment: apologists term for ENSLAVEMENT!
War of Norther Aggression: 1) you forget “Kansas, bloody Kansas” The slavers shot first. 2) Slavery: Doesn’t human life, dignity, freedom, mean anything? Hard to find a more just war.[/quote]
Yes, it does count but most other countries managed without raping their constitution and burning down their own citizens.
If it really had been about slavery the US would have managed too.
[quote]3hitter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
The US has fought a number of unjust and unsuccessful wars…[/quote]
Name them.[/quote]
1812, War of Northern Agression, Phillipines, WWI, Vietnam, …[/quote]
Please explain why the war of 1812 was unjust?[/quote]
Because you cannot simply run around “freeing” people whenever religious hysteria compells you to spread “freedom” and/or “democracy”.
That is simply inappropriate behavior.
[/quote]
And the “Jihad” is what? Religious hysteria.[/quote]
Its the personal struggle to remain righteous and also the outward struggle to spread Islamic ideas across the Globe. A minority have justified violent actions in its name. Nowhere did Muhammad say the use of force was part of jihad.
Not trying to correct you, just want everybody to get the picture.
[quote]3hitter wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]AlisaV wrote:
The US has fought a number of unjust and unsuccessful wars…[/quote]
Name them.[/quote]
1812, War of Northern Agression, Phillipines, WWI, Vietnam, …[/quote]
Please explain why the war of 1812 was unjust?[/quote]
Because you cannot simply run around “freeing” people whenever religious hysteria compells you to spread “freedom” and/or “democracy”.
That is simply inappropriate behavior.
[/quote]
And the “Jihad” is what? Religious hysteria.[/quote]
Sure, but how does emulating them help?
[quote]3hitter wrote:
[quote]erik-the-red wrote:
So you kill the fanatic. Is that the end of our problems? How do we stop others from rising up and taking this fanatic’s position?[/quote]
No, you kill the next fanatic too. You go whereever you have to , across any border to do so. Fanatics are born from ignorance.
On top of that you must win the hearts and minds of those in the country that have been squashed by these fanatics. Educate the people. Bring them out of the stone age. Make it so that they are able to think for and express themselves without fear of the fanatic. Teach them to take some fucking pride and protect their own nation from said fanatics.
Although none of this can be accomplished until said fanatics are removed. Which takes us back to fighting the fanatics.[/quote]
So your plan is to kill 'em all first (ie. the fanatics) and then commence a neo-colonialist program of education and enlightenment? Have I understood you correctly?
If so, you forget that the fanatics are a cancer. Hence, your “kill 'em all” plan cannot succeed because for every fanatic you kill, another one rises. You can keep killing them, but more will always come to replace the ones you killed, so you’ll never advance to the second step of “educate and enlighten.”
[quote]
A few years many, but not all, of the Afghan rebels who had been on the receiving hand of US training and equipment during the Soviet occupation allowed religious extremism to cause them to bite the hand that had fed them; the hand that had helped them expel the Bear.[/quote]
Yes, I understand that our assistance to Afghan mujahideen stemmed from the Cold War, when the Sickle and Hammer was our enemy, not Islam-inspired terrorism. Along these lines, I can see why you’d feel that the mujahideen who “bit the hand that fed them” are ingrates.
I hate ingrates as much as you do. But what happened in Afghanistan is a natural consequence of adopting the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” attitude. They weren’t our friends. We didn’t understand their mentality then, and we still don’t. You see them as ingrates, but they sure as hell don’t see it that way.
I repeat the questions I asked on page two before the thread temporarily delved into the finer points of steel properties:
Who wants to win that shit country in the first place? Its a shithole and always has been a shithole. All the war has ever done is give extremists more material to recruit retards. The only war that should of ever been waged, if any should of been, in Afghanistan is one waged covertly by special forces. And yes all the soldier deaths in Afghanistan and in Iraq have been a waste for our country, I wouldn’t trade 1,000 “bad” guys for 1 of our citizens. I’m still pissed off the govt let 9/11 fucking happen. All we are doing in Afghanistan is setting up mini welfare payoff programs while our soldiers die off slowly.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
- “why we are in Afghanistan” - Afghanistan is the central Asian country that from the mid 90s until 2002 was under the oppressive boot heel of and politically controlled for the most part by the Taliban - extremist Muslims who gained control after the Soviets withdrew in the late 80s.
[/quote]
Don’t forget to tell him that those freedom figh…I mean extremists, were trained and supported by the U.S government. [/quote]
Well, I guess we should just pack up and GO HOME THEN!
[quote]Valor wrote:
[quote]Dustin wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
- “why we are in Afghanistan” - Afghanistan is the central Asian country that from the mid 90s until 2002 was under the oppressive boot heel of and politically controlled for the most part by the Taliban - extremist Muslims who gained control after the Soviets withdrew in the late 80s.
[/quote]
Don’t forget to tell him that those freedom figh…I mean extremists, were trained and supported by the U.S government. [/quote]
Well, I guess we should just pack up and GO HOME THEN!
[/quote]
It’s inevitable.
[quote]Valor wrote:
[quote]Dustin wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
- “why we are in Afghanistan” - Afghanistan is the central Asian country that from the mid 90s until 2002 was under the oppressive boot heel of and politically controlled for the most part by the Taliban - extremist Muslims who gained control after the Soviets withdrew in the late 80s.
[/quote]
Don’t forget to tell him that those freedom figh…I mean extremists, were trained and supported by the U.S government. [/quote]
Well, I guess we should just pack up and GO HOME THEN!
[/quote]
Sounds like a good idea.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Dustin wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
- “why we are in Afghanistan” - Afghanistan is the central Asian country that from the mid 90s until 2002 was under the oppressive boot heel of and politically controlled for the most part by the Taliban - extremist Muslims who gained control after the Soviets withdrew in the late 80s.
[/quote]
Don’t forget to tell him that those freedom figh…I mean extremists, were trained and supported by the U.S government. [/quote]
I’d be happy to tell him:
During the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and as part of a world war called the Cold War the USA did some limited training and arming of Afghan rebels. It was limited due to political considerations and mainly done by operatives of the CIA.
However it was somewhat successful especially when Stinger missiles were transported to the theater of war. The Soviet Hind helicopter was an especially genocidal weapon and was used to completely obliterate Afghan villages and rebel camps. Use of the Stinger turned the tactical tide in that regard. Soviet fighters and bombers were also deterred from effecting successful missions because they had to maintain a fairly high altitude to avoid the range of the Stinger.
Due to US help, the fierce and unrelenting guerrilla warfare tactics, a financially strapped Soviet Union in its death throes as a nation and their lack of will to win the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan.
This created a political power vacuum in a country that really never has operated as a country in its history. Rather it has virtually always existed more as collection of warring tribes somewhat protected by its geography.
A few years many, but not all, of the Afghan rebels who had been on the receiving hand of US training and equipment during the Soviet occupation allowed religious extremism to cause them to bite the hand that had fed them; the hand that had helped them expel the Bear.
Thanks, Dustin for suggesting I fill in more of the blanks for our high school tuba player. Maybe you learned something too. If you already knew it all it would be incumbent on you to take the reins of the class once in awhile, wouldn’t you agree?[/quote]
Oh, no thanks. You are doing a fine job.
Besides, it’s far more amusing when you are at the head of the class.
[quote]orion wrote:
Because you cannot simply run around “freeing” people whenever religious hysteria compells you to spread “freedom” and/or “democracy”.
That is simply inappropriate behavior.
[/quote]
Who exactly did we free in 1812???
[quote]erik-the-red wrote:
Hence, your “kill 'em all” plan cannot succeed because for every fanatic you kill, another one rises. You can keep killing them, but more will always come to replace the ones you killed, . . ."[/quote]
it’s almost like killin’ zombies ! 